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Comment by seanmcdirmid | Hacker News Reader

The bizarre thing is that its a much freerer society than even the states in some ways. The police don't really bother you unless the situation becomes "visible," lots of sketchy things happen out in the open. You don't have to wear a helmet when cycling, etc...

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You can drink beers in the street, nightclubs and bars don't have a closing time, policemen are not armed, there is no law about where you can or cannot smoke, it's ridiculously easy to get a visa and stay in China as long as you want. You will never ever get a fine in China for a civil offense (not wearing a seatbelt, spitting on the floor, peeing in public, crossing the street on a red light, etc.). At worse, you are going to get a friendly warning. Traffic policemen are not allowed to chase speeding cars. They will rely on license plates and CCTV cameras instead.

China is surprisingly more free than many western countries as long as you don't step into political territory. Being a foreigner also helps a lot. Some people might argue that those freedoms seem anodin compared to freedom of speech or political freedom but in many ways, those things have a bigger impact on your everyday life than the latter freedoms. If you're libertarian leaning like me, you'll probably like China.

What would happen if a law was passed banning smoking in a particular area? Would ordinary Chinese be able to object to it, would they be able to petition the legislature that passed the law without fear of reprisal? What if your kid's school adopted something in the curriculum that you found objectionable - could you complain without fear? I am not being snarky, I really am curious about how bright the line is between the political forbidden territory and uncontroversial.

> What would happen if a law was passed banning smoking in a particular area? Would ordinary Chinese be able to object to it, would they be able to petition the legislature that passed the law without fear of reprisal?

In general, the central government tries to maintain a good popular opinion so complaining does work in some ways. It's also fairly straightforward to join the party if you are really into politics. I believe you are relatively safe from reprisal as long as you complain about a specific policy, not the actual party.

When people are unhappy about something, the party's modus operandi is to blame local government or corruption and fix whatever is making them unhappy. The nice thing about the party is that it is highly decentralized making it easier to back off without losing face or perceived authority.

In the case of Internet censorship, it doesn't affect 99.9% of Chinese so there isn't much people complaining about it. Most Chinese don't have a clue what Google Maps or Gmail is. The prevalent websites here are Baidu for search, Baidu maps for maps and Yahoo for email. Would the average Joe in the US complain about Baidu or Youku being blocked by the government?

> What if your kid's school adopted something in the curriculum that you found objectionable - could you complain without fear?

I'm not sure who sets the curriculum and whether you could successfully get it changed. I believe it would be easier in that case to send your kids to a private school.

Personally, I feel China is freer than the US or Canada in ways that have a more noticeable impact on my life. Then again, I would probably be more concerned about freedom of speech and political freedom if I couldn't leave China as easily I can right now.

Indoctrination happens in public school in China, and you can't do much about it. There is no such thing as a private school for locals (officially at least, there are some underground schools for migrant worker kids), though there are international expat schools that are super expensive. Most public school have tuition and competitive admission anyways.

It is already illegal on paper to smoke in many areas. Just like it is illegal to sell iPhone clones. Basically when the police are passing you, you stop smoking/selling fake iPhones...

Or you offer the cop a cigarette? Anti smoking laws are poorly enforeced in Beijing.

You forgot to mention that many nonviolent crimes in China carry sentences we would consider extreme. Depending on the quantity, rather harmless drugs such as marijuana, shrooms, and MDMA can get you executed. Civilian ownership of firearms is also restricted. Then of course there's the Internet censorship and monitoring. Don't forget the banning of various books.

If your idea of libertarian is "bars stay open all night and I can smoke anywhere" then you might want to consider Las Vegas. It's much more permissive than any place in China and you won't even have to learn a new language.

Companies are also free to pollute and in some cities the pollution is so bad it seems like a weather system.

You mentioned your libertarian leaning. I find that hilarious. Yes, there's an intersection with libertarianism, but there is a lot that doesn't intersect.

Yea, I felt the same way - it's almost libertarian in some ways. I felt far less paranoid around their police / security people because it seemed like their default position wasn't: hassle.

Though to be honest, the police in the states aren't really hard to beat - what culture of BS that is...

I've heard of some "situations" involving raves and outdoor parties where weed was involved, but in each case the foreigners get a free pass while the Chinese get to spend all night in a police station getting drug tests. Anyways, we will never be Chinese and won't see the real China.

I actually heard that regular policemen in China couldn't recognize the smell of marijuana.

These aren't regular police men, they are the police guys who are in plain clothes and drive black Audis. Quite a bit different from the regular traffic cop.

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