Guess what? With Apple's new Neo laptop the price is also way way wayyy out to lunch.
If MSFT gives a business a huge bulk discount to buy their laptops + Office360 + Teams... OK? But as a "consumer" it really sucks.
Want PC gaming? Steamdeck or Steambox.
They're fighting to seize the very specific market segment of "I don't like Windows and don't want to use Linux or a Chromebook, and I'm also poor, but still want to pay a premium price for an underpowered tablet with keyboard glued to it."
Like here's a $500 PC:
https://www.amazon.com/Aspire-Copilot-WUXGA-Display-Processo... https://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-Aspire-14-AI-review-Basic...
Twice the storage, twice the RAM, comparable GPU. CPU is a slower in single core, but comparable in multi-core. Faster storage. USB 4, HDMI, multiple USB A ports. Supports more than 1 external monitor. Yep, chassis and screen are worse but it's better in many other ways.
That is not remotely in the same category as the Neo.
The Neo costs a $100 more, needs a $30 dongle to connect to 90% of the stuff people have, has half the RAM, half the storage, slower storage. Has considerably worse I/O. But has a better screen and build quality comparable to a MacBook Pro from 2007.
It's different compromises. Personally I'd rather have more RAM, storage and IO than a prettier case and better screen.
It doesn’t have 8gigs of ram to cheat the consumer. It’s because this company can do 10000 hours of user testing to see what people need to do their normal people things.
NT has a far better VMM than macOS does and handles OOM significantly better than macOS (and Linux, for that matter).
Look no further than the various Mac subreddits for applications such as TextEdit, Calculator, Safari, and other first and third party applications leaking like a sieve to the point of OOM for multiple versions of macOS at this point.
Not to mention, Macs are sharing that precious memory with the CPU; on those 8GiB machines, leaving 7.5GiB or less (depending on what you're doing) for the kernel to use for non-graphics services.
That's one of my great frustrations with Windows. NT is a fine kernel. The userspace on top of that is fucking terrible though.
When people compare "operating systems" they're not comparing the kernel. They're at the most technical comparing the userspace tools shipped with that kernel, and at their most general the "ethos" of the developers that build the ecosystem. The terrible experience on windows of every programing having an installer that pokes around god knows where in the registry is just as much an experience of the Windows operating system as piping curl into bash is on Linux.
All of them handle OOM the same way: paging to disk with subsequent thrashing. How can any OS be better than any other in that respect?
If your computing experience leaves much to be desired it’s more-often-than-not the fault of the fact more and more applications are eschewing (admittedly neglected) efficient native platforms and using Electron/WebViews.
…looking at you, Balena Etcher. No-one needs a 200MB front-end for `dd`.
Completely agree. In my current role, I work with a lot more "normal" computer users, and it's helped me have a better understanding of many consumer technologies from different perspectives
I have seen the survey results and work studies for our large enterprise of Mac users, most (not all, but most) have zero change in satisfaction or perceived or objective work performance with 8GB vs 16GB MacBooks. Most users are swapping between outlook, teams and chrome, anything more than an M2 8GB MacBook Pro would be a waste for these users. Disk performance is similar, anything in the M line is more than good enough for 75%+ of our users. Mac screens and keyboards have very high customer satisfaction in our org. Just like 16 GB of RAM, it does not translate to a measurable increase in work performance, but subjectively people report higher satisfaction.
As for cost, the MacBook has a lower total cost of ownership in our organization than a Windows PC at a similar purchase price because: 1) longer OS support timeline from apple means they can be used longer and 2) at the end of their lifespan with us, they have much higher resale value than comparable windows hardware.
Just a different perspective as to why 8GB MacBooks make sense for some users.
Same thing with the USB A ports. Not really selling point imo.
And yeah, USB A? I got a cheapo C-to-A hub for my dwindling number of legacy devices. There’s no remaining upside to A.
It's a weird choice to pair with a budget laptop since monitors that support that are usually several dollars extra...
Hubs are mostly only relevant for docking or increasing the number of ports, given that USB-A to -C adapters are so cheap (assuming they're not bundled with the peripheral in the first place) you can reasonably leave them permanently attached to larger form factor USB-A peripherals.
As for full-sized HDMI, assuming you're not talking about the hellish mini or micro HDMI as alternatives, I'll take USB-C, or even mini DisplayPort, over full HDMI, as both have decent connectors and provide more and better inexpensive options for display connectivity (though admittedly finding good active DisplayPort-to-HDMI dongles can be harder than it should be because chroma subsampling is a thing that's not frequently touched upon in product descriptions).
They got away with it forever because at $600 there was no competition.
I would say it’s more that Microsoft will make your $600 feel cheap, Apple will make it feel respectable.
No apple prefers to have a monopoly on ads and crapware but they're still there. The internet is filled with annoyed apple customers who want to debloat their systems:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254337272
https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/414682/how-can-i-r...
https://tech.yahoo.com/ai/articles/5gb-pure-bloatware-apple-...
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macos-debloating-thread...
Those are not in any way comparable to ads or Candy Crush in the start menu.
1178 points by cdrnsf 49 days ago | 564 comments
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46911901
Apple testing new App Store design that blurs the line between ads and results (9to5mac.com)
618 points by ksec 67 days ago | 514 comments
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46680974
Ads aren't as intrusive or annoying on a mac yet, but they aren't not intrusive or annoying either (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/256235494)
I still haven't figured out how to remove Microsoft Store apps from the Start menu in recent non-LTSC versions of Windows 11, even on Enterprise with the Enterprise-only "disable consumer experiences" Group Policy key set.
Suggestion for any Microsofties listening: give me an easy way to override Windows key press-and-release to open the PowerToys Command Palette, and I'll never complain about the Start menu again.
It’s nice to own things designed to not fall apart after a few years.
Because that's where it belongs with 8GB of RAM.
My $600 2022 corporate laptop is faster and smoother than a $600 Neo, and that's with the corporate spyware crap installed.
I also have a Thinkpad from 2000 that still works.
i don't think it makes much sense to recommend specific craptops, every manufacturer seems to have a bazillion SKUs they reset every six months in that price range... buy whatever's on sale :p
or buy used of course
A fun, brightly colored, relatively inexpensive, Windows-less laptop that you can use for doing your taxes while watching a movie has appeal. The performance isn't that important, so long as it is as responsive as the owner's phone.
I have an RTX 5070TI laptop. 95% I use it with Tumbleweed.
Unfortunately with work I don't have too much to play with LLM training and such.
The ultra poor person system is a used 200$ Thinkpad ( something about 2 years old) + your Linux distro of choice.
This is what the average computer user is using to try to run your apps and websites. And remember - a cheap laptop bought today is going to be in use for at least five years.
To me, all of those seem woefully underpowered, but $180 is $180...
Around 300$ it gets better, specifically if you're open to Dell and other brands.
I don't think traditional desktop operating systems are best for most people. I believe a Chromebook, or an iPad with a keyboard, is best.
And with 8GB of RAM you are quite limited in the business sector as you say
https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey?platform=mac
For Mac, 30% are at 8GB, 43% at 16GB.
Windows has nearly nobody below 16GB (27%) and the biggest is 32GB (58%)
Just keep it under one browser tab, bro.
Anecdotally also, my one laptop that I've upgraded to Windows 11 is a lot snappier. As a rule I haven't noticed memory pressure on any device I've owned ever as a "regular user," it only really applies to gaming and heavy development with lots of VMs, especially these days.
They do it by prematurely wearing down the soldered SSD just in time for you to buy a new laptop.
> The Neo is probably the best laptop for typical people.
I rest my case.
The Neo is also not a play for businesses directly. It seems pretty clearly a play for students who will eventually enter the business world with their personal laptop preferences.
This really is the key point.
The Neo is not a work laptop (At least, not for engineers). It's a low-end laptop designed to compete with Chromebooks.
Anyway, I installed Linux Mint on there. She has been using it every day and at least according to her there hasn't really been any jank (and I told her to call me any time if something breaks and I'll fix it).
At this point, I think Linux distros have gotten good enough to realistically start stealing users away from Windows. Linux Mint is easy to use, runs fine even on modest hardware, and doesn't push a bunch of shitty ads at you. I think there is an option for telemetry, but I also think that disabling it actually disables it.
Wine and Proton have gotten so good that outside of modern MS Office, most Windows things just run if you need it, but if you're not using MS Office heavily then you likely can get by with web apps and/or the Linux alternatives.
Maybe it really will be the Year of the Linux Desktop!
We got her set up with Discord so she can screen share if she needs to.
Buying a Windows laptop is a default even for a lot of Linux users because the alternatives are mostly too US-centric. In Asia, Framework only delivers to Taiwan - which is astounding given the technically advanced population of consumers in South East Asia. I'm not aware of System76 etc having any sales channels and after sales service setup in Asia either.
Until Asahi becomes a stable choice on Macs, if you want to run Linux on a laptop of a reputable brand, a Windows laptop is basically the only option (even though you may just wipe it). I kept mine dual boot not because I actually use Windows at home but because I paid for the bloody license, even though against my wishes.
I would rather advise XBox, Nintendo or PlayStation for gaming.
Not that I'd know, I've probably seen <10 apple laptop devices in my life and never used one.
Having been using Macs for work and home use for the last few years, I have to say you’re right. And yet, in spite of that, I’d still rather use MacOS over Windows. The fans on my Mac never start spinning up as soon as the login screen appears or randomly when it’s sitting untouched on my desk, I never find MacOS to have rebooted in the middle of the night without asking me, it doesn’t constantly nag me to use iCloud more, and it never shows ads for Apple shit in Finder.
When I use MacOS, the worst I feel is the developers are a bit sloppy. When I use Windows, I feel like the developers actively hate me.
Apple’s real differentiator is their silicon. M series chips are just incredibly good and you get a full workday out of them on battery.
The M1 Pro I still have at work is easily the best laptop I have ever used. For side projects I use an M4 air with maxed out RAM and it has no issues with anything I have thrown at it.