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Comment by ggm-at-algebras | Hacker News Reader

In Shenzhen for a tech meeting. The streetscape is quieter, despite high traffic levels and I hear not only MORE birdsong, but the birds do more complex songlines.

The air is clean. For sure some of this is because it's a coastal city and has fresh sea breezes, but I've been in other Chinese coastal cities in times past and the air was significantly less clean.

There are social upsides for an almost-all-EV city.

This is an 18m person city. It's not exclusively wealthy people, its just a city with a very high local EV population and it shows.

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Counterpoint - I returned to China (Beijing) last summer after 9 years and was honestly surprised how LITTLE it has changed over those 9 years, I was expecting big changes reading this tales about Shenzhen, but the reality is maybe only 1/4-1/3 of the cars on the road were EVs, there were pretty much none escooters, people still smoke in restaurants and yes, the air was for the most part perfectly fine, though this was really case in summer even before.

The most noticable change which puzzled me where those big boxes with slots in all restaurants and grocery shops, which are rental powerbanks.

Other than these hardly anything changed, policemen in police station smoked right under no smoking sign and in that half an hour in their office I inhaled more secondary smoke than in years in Europe combined. To their credit they were as laid back as policemen in my small home town. Beijing province border checks are more strict, but they still let us go without registered accommodation on weekend.

Oh yeah, out of dozens restaurants we frequented ONE fancy hot pot restaurant had robot bringing over plates.

Plus Taobao/Tmall seems replaced now with Pinduoduo with super cheap purchases (think double the Alibaba/factory price) including free shipping.

Mutianyu great wall is now fully mainstream, everyone (99%) now use cable car instead of hiking uphill, before it felt at least 50:50, people got lazy.

Ah yeah, everywhere you go you need to present passport and sometimes also book ticket in advance, so from tourist standpoint it's worse, before you could just show up same visit major sights in Beijing even without passport.

1/4-1/3 EVs is an underestimate for somewhere like Shenzhen (probably for Beijing too). It's going to be well over 50% there. And virtually all scooters will be electric.

You're right about the smoking, though. It's a massive problem.

it's definitely not underestimate for Beijing where I stayed for 3 weeks this summer, maybe you count PHEV as EVs, many of those cars which look like EVs are actually hybrids, only in late 2025 China reached 50% newly registered BEV+PHEV cars plus there are lots of previously registered cars and if we count only BEVs the percentage will be much smaller, actually I think 1/3 of BEV on the road is quite an overestimate from my side

are NEV common? sure. do BEV make majority of cars on the road? for sure not

there are basically none scooters, they use either (e)bikes or electric motorbikes/mopeds (these are not new, they used them en masse already 10 years ago)

Looking into this a bit more, it seems that 20% of the total number of registered vehicles in Beijing are NEV vehicles, but that a far larger percentage of cars on the road at any given moment are NEVs. That's because almost all taxis (and buses) are NEVs.

By the way, NEVs might have only reached 50% of new registrations across all of China in late 2025, but in Tier-1 cities, it has been far higher than 50% for years. It's extremely difficult to even get a license plate for an ICE car in major Chinese cities. You have to enter a lottery, with a very low chance of winning. Even if you do get a license plate, you're banned from driving on one weekday every week.

It's extremely difficult even to get NEV license plate, trust me I talked with many of those taxi drivers who drove me every single day during those 3 weeks about how much they paid for car, how long it took to register it. The benefit of NEV passed years ago already, even for NEV license plate you have to wait years.

It's still massively easier to get a license plate for a NEV than for an ICE car.

Beyond that, I think the issue with long wait times for NEV license plates is unique to Beijing.

AFAIK, beyond a certain speed (~25km/h?), EVs make just as much noise as ICEs, since the noise is then mainly generated by the tyres hitting the road. So I'm somewhat sceptical about this claim.

Dutch city centres can be really crowded and yet actually quiet, because there are practically no cars. It's probably not Shenzen-level crowded, but I'd bet that the number of people that are being transported at busy locations isn't too far behind.

(As popular slogan is "cities aren't noisy, cars are noisy".)

Source? That sounds dubious. Here in USA you hear blazing engines constantly, I’m skeptical a rubber tire is louder than that

The source is "I heard that somewhere", hence "AFAIK". It kinda matches my experience at least when I get closer to a highway, the noise I hear doesn't sound like engine noise anymore.

Yeah, but you probably don't walk along a highway every day to get your groceries, do you. The closer the traffic gets to where people live, the lower the speed limit, and the more relevant the loudness of an engine.

Another factor is that an EV has a noise ceiling, whereas an ICE can get arbitrarily loud — think motorcycles, buses, trucks.

ICEs also use all of their noise range all the time — revving, accelerating. Sudden harsh noise changes like that are much more noticeable and annoying than the sound of a theoretical steady-state ICE engine.

Unfortunately the steady background noise of cars I do hear around my house (and thus where I get groceries) mostly comes from the highway. But you're right, in the city centre it's partially this quiet because it's about the farthest you can get from the highway.

Not just bikes did collect some data for a youtube video here: (Skip to 13:03 for EVs specifically)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTV-wwszGw8

In summary, ICE vehicles are louder, but not by as much as you might guess.

There is no reason to be skeptical of this claim. ICEs are very noisy during acceleration. City traffic is very start-stop by its nature. Even in Dutch cities, even if you replace every single traffic light with a roundabout. EV engines are incredibly quiet when you put them next to each other.

In many cases, we're just very used to it especially because it's a "low rumbling" kind of noise. But it still affects us.

While true (beyond 30-50km/h), that assumes that cars are driving at a steady state. Obviously, cities with much more stop-and-go require more revving of engines.

Acoustic tyres are also gradually becoming the norm, primarily with EVs. This cuts noise by several decibels.

So it's not an unreasonable claim per se.

That makes sense, thanks for updating my priors!

It's not just a "rich city" effect. That's kind of the key point in the whole EV debate... once it's mainstream and infrastructure is there, it stops being a luxury signal and just becomes… normal urban life, with some pretty noticeable side benefits

Mexico City needs this badly. It would be beautiful if it wasn't for the smog and noise of traffic.

I'm sure it's coming. I'm in Mexico this week and was surprised to drive by not one but two chinese car dealerships. Looks like almost 10% of cars sold last year were EVs

Inversion layer there will still trap ev particulate unfortunately

What is EV particulate? Like brake or tire dust?

yes. it's an argument that since EVs are heavier than fossil-fuel vehicles due to their batteries, that they generate more particulate emissions (brakes/tire dust) than fossil-fuel vehicles.

it's a wrong argument, but it's still circulated in groups of factually-challenged people

Nobody said they generate more but simply that they generate some. Modern petrol engines output very little particulates so almost all the particulates are from tyres and brakes. Why would EVs produce any less?

While EVs are heavier—increasing tire wear—their regenerative braking significantly reduces brake dust, and they eliminate tailpipe exhaust entirely. Overall, EVs offer a net reduction in particulates.

> Overall, EVs offer a net reduction in particulates.

Nobody said anything to the contrary.

I am sceptical about the reduction versus a modern, efficient hybrid, though. Those can use regenerative braking too.

EVs are heavier which increases road wear. Everyone loves to forget about the road.

When it comes to particulates and other issues, EVs are just "less bad". We still need to push for walking, cycling and trams and stop pretending that EVs solve the bigger problems. I hate how every comment on HN that doesn't sing the praises of EVs from the rooftops gets immediately downvoted. We can do better than "less bad". We should be aiming much higher.

I wish EVs happened earlier, before the explosion in fossil fuels that led to enormous vehicles with full air-conditioning "cabins" (more like portable living rooms). EVs being slow to charge is an extremely good thing for us. It makes it obvious that this energy isn't free and takes a while to accumulate. If this was obvious from the start, I doubt people would have wanted these huge, inefficient things. Imagine opting for a climate controlled cabin or a larger vehicle if it meant a significant increase in charging time. Nobody would go for it unless they really had to.

> EVs are heavier which increases road wear. Everyone loves to forget about the road.

Passenger vehicles are pretty negligible when it comes to road wear compared to trucks (1000 times more). The weight is more important when we consider freight trucks (electric freight trains just get the power from overhead cables or a third rail). As freight trucks transition to electric, we will definitely have more road wear to worry about.

> When it comes to particulates and other issues, EVs are just "less bad".

Is this a perfect is the enemy of good argument? I mean sure, using public transit, bikes, and walking is better than using private personal transportation. But I can tell you...Beijing has all of that and electric cars are still much better than the ICEs they used to have.

> I hate how every comment on HN that doesn't sing the praises of EVs from the rooftops gets immediately downvoted.

All kinds of Perfect is the enemy of good comments generally get downvoted because the fallacy is overused on HN.

> Imagine opting for a climate controlled cabin or a larger vehicle if it meant a significant increase in charging time.

It really depends on how much you need to drive.

Now compare that to a 2200lb civic with a 5 speed you can engine brake with.

The WSJ and Daily Mail both ran stories with headlines explicitly stating that they generate more particulates. I can't find any credible source stating the same, so I'm assuming the stories were the usual agenda fiction, but they do exist.

It's an argument that means you can still say cars are bad even if they're electric, which may be true but also clearly leans into some people's preexisting biases

ev particulate is identical if not less than fossil fuel.

same tires (actually a little harder due to being LRR tires) same brakes (that get used significantly less thanks to regenerative braking)

We must not be visiting the same city.

It also has a relatively low vehicle density, roughly 1/3 of somewhere like Houston. Mexico City is a good comparison by size and vehciles, but is also a way older, sprawling city. Shenzhen was largely built around modern road planning and extensive transit, and the power of aggressive policies limiting gas cars.

Considering how polluted was HK, hearing that Shenzhen is less polluted and quieter makes me happy.

True enough, the last time I have been in HK I was surprised to see less smog and overall less pollution.

> I hear not only MORE birdsong, but the birds do more complex songlines.

Do the local mockingbirds sing the song of the car alarm? That one is pretty complex.

Surely you don’t think birds have evolved to sing more complex songs in the time since mass EV adoption?

Birds adapt their song to ambient noise conditions. This paper [1] studies the Pearl River Delta (where Shenzhen is) as a natural experiment. It shows spectral changes in the target species correlating to background noise levels. I haven't looked hard enough to make sure there isn't a study that does find complexity changes but it's certainly clear that noise can affect bird song behavior generally.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235198942...

>almost-all-EV city.

Shenzhen is not nearly "almost-all EV" city. There is a lot of wealthy people and almost none of them drives EV. You can see all expensive cars are ICE (blue plates).

Modern ICE cars emit almost no sound or emissions. Its not 70s with black smoke coming from exhaust pipes.

You can take any densely populated city with almost none EV vehicles (say Tokyo) and you can hear birds and air would be very clean.

I live in Tokyo, and the air is not that clean close to highways: large diesel trucks pollute a lot, and also small motorbikes/scooters pollute horribly because they don't seem to require any emissions controls at all.

The main thing keeping the air clean here is the proximity to the bay, along with the fact that there just aren't that many private cars in the first place, since most people take public transit and don't drive because there's nowhere to park.

Large trucks do not pollute a lot (there are strict standards to that matter). While they do pollute obviously, there is no viable substitute to it. EV truck is a dream at this point in history.

Amount of private cars in Tokyo is huge. Pollution near expressways in rural japan far from bays is next to nothing, so having it close to ocean does help a little.

Small motorbike/scooters are not allowed on expressways.

> EV truck is a dream at this point in history.

you should tell china.

https://www.electrive.com/2026/01/23/year-end-surge-electric...

What about the increased pollution from road dust? In Norway this has led to higher pollution levels that are directly dangerous to people and animals than back when we were all combustion vehicles.

The heavier EV's are causing genuinely harmful particles simply by driving on the roads themselves.

Thats' why you need light EVs. Norway has electric tanks. China has light EVs.

This sounds like a nice problem to have. Most of the world lives cities blighted by ICE pollution.

On the other hand the EVs produce no exhausts and less harmful particles from using their brakes.

Where did you get the idea that EVs have caused it? As far as I know the amount of road dust from EVs is within the same ballpark so the claim that it has led to overall higher pollution levels sounds inconceivable. I can't even find sources that indicate high pollution levels in Oslo besides a Bloomberg article that says the situation has actually improved in recent years. [1] On the contrary Oslo seems to be doing comparatively well according to the air quality data from iqair. [2]

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-04-11/why-oslo-...

[2] https://www.iqair.com/us/norway/oslo/oslo

This claim keeps circulating around and around and is not "EVs are producing more pollution", it's "if EVs are going at motorway speed, and if we only look at the pollution generated by the tires, then indeed they produce a little more".

But that's completely ignoring tailpipe emission, and the fact that in an urban setting it's still vastly more advantageous to drive an EV.

See https://doi.org/10.1016/j.trd.2025.104622

Woah hold on there. Where is the evidence for both increased dust and increased pollution levels?

EVs generate next to no brake dust due to regenerative braking, most EVs have mechanisms to forcefully use the friction brakes at some points to stop surface rust for this reason.

It's true they're generally heavier than the equivalent ICE vehicle, but this is usually around 200-300KG heavier - it causes a small increase in tyre wear and associated particulates but these are heavy large particles - the majority larger than pm10. That's a problem for water courses and micro plastics but nothing that'll get in your lungs or bloodstream. Anecdotally, my EV tyres (a particularly heavy model too) have lasted fine - my last set did 53k miles.

ICE cars produce plenty of pm10s, pm2.5s and smaller particles as well as nitrogen oxide, carbon dioxide and plenty of other harmful pollutants that EVs inherently don't. Even the power generated for them is usually produced away from the majority of the population.

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