Comment by Sweepi | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Sweepi | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

"1.Serialize the entire scene, compress the data, and pass it to the joining client. We already do full scene serialization for quicksave and quickload, so this is possible, but the files are large: 30-50 MB is common, often more, so transfer would take a while.

[...]

3. Record the deterministic command stream, pass it to the joining client, and have that client apply all changes to the loaded scene before joining the game. The amount of data is much smaller than in option 2 since we’re not sending any voxel data, but applying the changes can take a while since it involves a lot computation.

Once we started investigating option 3 we realized it was actually less data than we anticipated, but we still limit the buffer size and disable join-in-progress when it fills up. This allows late joins up to a certain amount of scene changes, beyond which applying the commands would simply take an unreasonably long time. "

So [1] is not an option for players who want to do it that way?

Part of the problem with [1] is that you still end up needing [3] anyhow, because even if you've got a fiber-to-fiber connection, while the transfer was occurring the game world has moved on and you'll need to replay that anyhow.

But if you've got a solution for [3] that works completely correctly anyhow, then writing lots of code for [1] becomes redundant to that anyhow, even with save/load code sitting right there. Might as well start from the beginning and replay it anyhow.

One of the things I will often do that I sometimes have to explain to my fellow engineers is bound the rate at which we'll have to handle certain changes based on what is making them. If you know that you've got a human on the other end of some system, they can only click and type and enter text so quickly. Yes, you still need to account for things like copy & paste if that's an issue for your system, where they may suddenly roll up with a novel's worth of text, but you know they can't be sending you War and Peace sixty times a second. You can make a lot of good scaling decisions around how many resources a user needs when you remember that. The bitrate coming out of a human being is generally fairly small; we do our human magic with the concatenation of lots of bits over lots of time but the bitrate itself is generally small. For all that Teardown is amazingly more technically complicated than Doom, the "list of instructions the humans gave to the game" is not necessarily all that much larger than a Doom demo (which is itself a recording of inputs that gets played back, not a video file), because even Doom was already brushing up on the limits of how many bits-per-second we humans can emit.

There is always the option of force pausing the game to all clients until the joining client is fully in sync. Age of Empires 2 does something like this when a player that was dropped later rejoins the game. You can even have a screen showing how synced each player is and an ETA based on their download speed, with the ability to chat and even kick a player...

Obviously that won't scale if you intend to have dozens of players constantly joining a server rather than a "friends only" (or whatever more constrained scenario) where players only occasionally join mid game.

fme, it's only kind of inconvenient. By the time the scene gets to the point where join-in-progress is disabled it's complete chaos anyway. Might as well restart the scene.

That said I haven't played any of the more intricate mods out there, but I can how it would become more of an issue.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com