Hacker News Reader

I work for a digital bank and the versioning is essentially exactly how we handle T&Cs. The user accepts a certain version of some terms, and if we launch for example a new product that requires changed T&Cs then we ask the user to accept them if they want to use the new product. If they don't, well, then they just keep using the existing offering without accepting any new terms.

That’s sounds reasonable for services-based consumer offerings. Which would include consumer SaaS services.

Where it gets a little muddy for me is hardware with services attached (a new EV, etc)… you pay $60k for a car, it really shouldn’t be possible to force a new ToS on something they has physical ownership. And definitely not possible to brick or de-option the car due to refusal to accept new ToS.

Telcos and insurers (especially life, pensions) too. Not rocket science.

Versioned terms help when changes apply to a product, not the whole platform. For a new product with different rules, require explicit, time-stamped consent before first use; otherwise grandfather users on existing terms. Provide a changelog, a grace period, and an easy opt-out. At Getly, per-product terms and payout rules kept separate can reduce friction.

> Or do they tag things and say "Customer X signed up on this date, so he is bound by T&C number 12, whereas this other customer signed up a year later and is bound by T&C number 13". That seems unwieldy since there is a common infrastructure.

If the company would like their T&C to carry the force of a binding contract upon me, then yes, keeping track of my agreement seems like the absolute bare minimum they must do.

Either these things are real contracts or they are not. The idea that it's too onerous for a company to keep track of its contractual agreements is absurd. That's giving them all the benefits of a real contract with none of the obligations.

> What does a company do when they want to increase rates, or change their products? They send out a notification that starting on a certain date, the prices will go up. I don't think anyone objects to that.

Of course you do. I have a fixed contract with my mobile carrier - if they want to change rates, tough luck. Once the current contract expires, they can indeed notify me that the new contract will auto-renew with a new rate, and I can either accept it or choose a new carrier. But they very much can't change prices, or alter services rendered, while the current contract is in force.

No it is absolutely fine. I pay my lawyer 100k/y to read through all my TCs for my 2k/y subscription spend. Makes sense.

This all just needs statutory laws and eliminate TCs for basic services. It is a scam.

Rental contract sure. Employment contract yeah.

I bet a single set of statutory rights for consumer and provider could cover most things.

B2B is different.

I'm still on a contract from 2016 or so with my mobile (cell) operator. 10 years of inflation, I pay basically nothing for some occassional data use and more voice than I could ever use.

Of course it irks them much to not be able to sell me less for more. But they can't do anything short of disconnecting me and that is unspeakable for a mobile operator.

I like this very much.

I used to have a good deal for years at Orange. They tried to get me on a new contract (slightly expensive) for a while, but at some point they just decommissioned the old program, basically they cancelled the old contracts and migrated everyone to the new plan. It was a minor change to me so went with it, then later they started to hike prices on the new plan, eventually I cancelled and left them after about 20 years.

You can probably do even better with a prepaid mvno at this point

> force you to quit and then sign up again? If they change the price, YES!

Otherwise, force the user to accept the new terms affirmatively. Then offer to refund any money if the user does not.

>so what do they do, force you to quit and then sign up again? That adds a lot of friction.

Maybe that's a good thing? Imagine if changing the T&C required cancelling everyone's account and then letting people sign up with new accounts if they still want to do business. That would probably make any T&C changes much harder to justify, creating a balance against what many see as abusing T&C updates.