Comment by ajross | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ajross | Hacker News Reader

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So, no, you're not. Or you're misunderstanding how this works. "Stop the war in Iran" is a majority position in polls. People don't vote on that, because people don't care about the war in Iran. Instead, wars at the ballot box are fought over which ethnicity needs to be the target of state violence, or whether or not it's a good thing for citizens to have health care. And those wars are serious, and hard-fought, and occasionally slip off the edge into non-democratic authoritarianism.

But voters don't care about Iran. So Iran policy is dominated by the interests of non-voting/non-democratic power structures like US business interests and geopolitical long-term desires. And on these issues, those power structures show marked agreement. So that's what we do, modulo tactical considerations (e.g. the Obama administration pursued a policy of containment and treaty engagement out of conservatism, where Trump installed a bunch of trigger happy cowboys who want to watch bombs on TV; but both viewed Iran as an enemy to be opposed, and for the same reasons).

So I repeat: to you, if you happen to view Iran policy as extremely important, it must feel like The System is conspiring against you to manipulate public opinion. But it's not. It's operating as designed, and 100% democratically. You are just in a minority, and this is what being in a minority feels like.

By this logic, everything any politician does would by definition be exactly what their constituents want, regardless of polling on any particular issue, because they still voted for the politician.

To wit: there are I issues and P positions for each issue, yet there are not I*P ballot choices, so people inevitably get something they don't want.

The logic also falls apart when you realize politicians can do whatever they want after getting elected, including flipping their positions on issues that got them elected (like no war), regardless of what the voters want.

> To wit: there are I issues and P positions for each issue, yet there are not I * P ballot choices, so people inevitably get something they don't want.

Sigh. I hate the internet. That was exactly my point. Thank you.

The democratic process inherently produces outcomes where not every action taken by a government has majority support. Always. Inevitably.

And, precisely because this is an inevitable result, arguments of the form that such actions represent the manipulation of the government by a conspiracy of elites suppressing the will of the masses are, in the jargon, batshit.

There is no conspiracy. You're just, to repeat for the fifth time, in a minority. Not on the issue itself, but on your prioritization. Sure, lots of people might "agree" with you, but no one gives enough of a shit to change their vote. So the government chases the votes instead, and the interests of those who can deliver the votes.

> The democratic process inherently produces outcomes where not every action taken by a government has majority support. Always. Inevitably.

Precisely -- you are repeating my point. And precisely because this is an inevitable result, arguments result of the form that such actions are what people want, because they voted for that politician, and that politician did that, therefore the people must have wanted it, therefore anyone who doesn't want it must be in the minority. This was your argument.

For the 6th time: This is not the case. Just because a politician did something does not mean it has majority support. Polling shows this particular position (pro-Iran-war) does not have majority support, but rather majority opposition [0], contrary to your argument. Because of the aforementioned I*P limitation, polls are the way to determine this, and that is what they determined [0]. If you think there is majority support for the Iran war, you are in a bubble. Your own personal "batshit" conspiracy theory about "elites" or whatever has no bearing on this.

0 - https://time.com/7382231/iran-us-israel-war-support-polling-...

> arguments result of the form that such actions are what people want

... who are you replying to? Not me. I certainly didn't say that.

You clearly said that opposition to the Iran war was not a majority position [0] (i.e., that the Iran war is something voters want), which is incorrect. Your explanation of this claim was that voters don't care about Iran, which is also incorrect, per polling [1].

0 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47250233

1 - https://time.com/7382231/iran-us-israel-war-support-polling-...

Cite 0 isn't what I said, though. I said people who care about Iran (in the sense of it being a primary driver of voting preference) are in the minority.

You're arguing with a strawman, or a mistake. You agree with me.

> Cite 0 isn't what I said, though.

Yes it is. Here is the exchange in question:

>> I'm talking about the majority position, not minority (opposition to Iran war)

> So, no, you're not. Or you're misunderstanding how this works.

> people don't care about the war in Iran.

They were talking about the majority position (it is opposition to Iran war), and they weren't "misunderstanding how this works", and people do care about the war in Iran.

>I said people who care about Iran (in the sense of it being a primary driver of voting preference) are in the minority.

Close -- you were talking about people who care about the Iran war, and you omitted everything in parentheses. In contradiction to that thing which you said, however: People who oppose the Iran war are in the majority.

This is the logic that cost Kamala Harris the election. Liberals are absolutely addicted to putting their head in the sand about how much people care about genocide and Israel's influence on our lives. We've hit the breaking point, Zionism is no longer electorally valid.

> "Stop the war in Iran" is a majority position in polls. People don't vote on that, because people don't care about the war in Iran.

This is simply incorrect and pure wishful thinking on your part.

> You are just in a minority, and this is what being in a minority feels like.

Once again, I'm in the majority. The majority of people do not support Israel or the war against Iran.

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