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Comment by c0balt | Hacker News Reader

> Ask them how to copy it somewhere else

To be fair, at least Android and presumably iOS grant apps by default no access to your files in modern versions.

The only way to get, e. G., an attachment downloaded via Thunderbird to a PC or another app is the share dialogue. A user does not access to the isolated app storage by default on an unrooted Android phone. For better or worse the young user is actually making the right choice here for their platform.

(This is also why making a backup of an Android phone is a nightmare when you aren't using a first party option. ADB is sometimes able to bypass it)

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True, it's all abstracted away and you don't even get access, but that's part of the problem. We (the industry) are teaching people that proprietary formats inside of app silos are the only way to store your data, making the default state being no control over your own stuff.

Note taking apps are a prime example of this, using a proprietary localdb for notes, inside of app storage you can't access, forcing you to transact with your own data exclusively through the app (and whatever subscriptions or upcharges that come with it). We've trained out the idea that these could just be local text files in a directory you can access and do with what you want.

I've watched discussions around open file formats fade away into obscurity along with the rise of mobile, and now we have to fight on whether we should be so graciously allowed to install software on the devices we own or not.

Not everyone needs to be a computer science student, but some basic level of curiosity or education around how tech works should be required in school, at the very least a warning message of "Your data isn't safe if it's not under your control."

> We've trained out the idea that these could just be local text files in a directory you can access and do with what you want.

But have you considered that a meaningful number of users actually want functionality that plain text simply can’t provide?

I understand files and file systems, I’ve worked in IT for decades, mostly in open source. I still choose a non plaintext note solution because it delivers capabilities that plain text cannot, especially across devices.

As long as the data can be exported to open formats, why would I voluntarily limit the value and functionality my tools can provide?

> To be fair, at least Android and presumably iOS grant apps by default no access to your files in modern versions.

That's exactly the point!

The file system is hidden from modern users. Kids brought up on this now have no idea or concept of where their data resides.

That's exactly the problem. Digital natives have, by and large, grown up with computing devices which try their best to be the opposite of general-purpose: their skills are siloed to the few apps they rely on, and e.g. files, keyboard shortcuts, the command prompt are not part of the "API" they learned.

I mean on iOS you do have a raw home storage path you can save arbitrary binary data stuff to, although Apple generally just has the option of "Save to Files"--but you have at least some basic folder structure there you can use and have full access to.

It's just not commonly used for the reason the other person mentioned (share buttons between apps that are file type aware)

That was only recently made the case

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