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Comment by WarmWash | Hacker News Reader

Sort of a hijack, but it rides on the awesomeness that e-bikes can bring about. They truly are incredible if you have never gotten to ride one.

E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes

E-peds, e-motos, electric motorycle, whatever. Just don't call them ebikes.

The problem is people (especially kids) getting what are essentially electric motorcycles, thinking they are ebikes, and then causing all sorts of chaos on roads and bike paths. This inevitably leads to the public hating "e-bikes" and the government passing totally confused laws about "e-bikes". This also leads to kids getting killed because mom and dad bought them an "e-bike" and let them loose on the roads with it.

Pedal assist ebikes are incredible, and really just turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists, while still providing exercise. It's a revolution for society, but we have to be careful to not totally fumble it with electric motorcycle death machines.

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As an oldster who used to do weekly century rides and lost that ability due to nerve damage in my foot (thanks to decades of wearing pointy Italian riding shoes), I’d love it if we could focus on simply enforcing laws that exist rather than saddling arbitrary blanket regulations on lawful citizens.

I built an ebike and hell yes I put a throttle on it because it enables me to ride more technical trails. This bike has dramatically increased my quality of life. Please leave me alone and if someone uses a throttle bike in an illegal manner give them a ticket.

I'm sypathetic but ... unlike cars, bikes don't have large each to read license plates. People will scream about facial recognition. I'm not trying to take away your freedom. I've just wished they'd enforce traffic laws on cyclists but it's just not going to happen and cyclists know it so they almost all break traffic laws with impunity.

You know who generally stops at a stop sign or stoplight? People on an e-bike, compared to people riding for sport or commuting on road bikes. It's not a big deal to stop and get started again when you have a motor. It's a pain in the ass when you're trying to make it to work on time with your legs.

Why is having a license plate even relevant here? Most traffic enforcement is done when an officer sees something happen.

How else will a witness be able to report the get-away bike in a bank robbery?

‘He’s is on a bike carrying 7 large sacks of cash’.

You know what happens when a cyclist is involved in a traffic accident they cause? They might get hurt or cause some minor property damage. When the driver of a car is at fault they kill other people, so I'm not too worried about even negligent bike riders causing an accident.

We recently had a funeral for people killed in an accident that was not caused by the car driver. When cars and bikes share the same space, it might be an impact with a car that kills somebody, but that impact might be the result of a chain of actions initiated by a bicyclist.

Drivers are actually not supposed to crash into people, regardless of where they are. If you can't react fast enough to the situation around you while driving a car, you were driving too fast, full stop.

Don't victim blame.

False. If you jump in front of a car who has the right of way and is not speeding it's not the driver's fault. The victum in this case is the driver who has done nothing wrong. The perp is the person who broke the law and faces the consequences.

"Not speeding" doesn't matter. Going below the speed limit does not give you a license to run people over.

The victim is the one who's injured or dead.

Must be nice to live in a world simpler than the one I do. Your broad generalization has so many deficiencies that I actually deleted what I was writing. There are countless exceptions to your hasty generalization.

If that's how you want to redefine the term, sure, ok. But the "victim" in this particular scenario is the one at fault.

Sure, if you commit suicide you're a victim of yourself

You seem to be unwilling to assign blame to the operator of hazardous machinery for running people over. Why is that? "They should know better"? Kids? Disabled people unable to use their mobility devices on the unplowed sidewalks? Animals?

If you cannot control yourself enough to slow down around people, you need to get out of the driver's seat. If you cannot stop before a potential crash, you were going too fast. 100% of the time. It literally does not matter if someone jumps in front of you. If you're going to choose the statistically most violent mode of transportation by multiple orders of magnitude, that is your responsibility.

As a pedestrian I find your analysis a bit myopic... but on par for far too many cyclists.

Large license plates don't prevent cars from regularly breaking traffic laws. The percentage of cyclists who come to a complete stop at all stop signs and red lights is higher than the percentage of drivers who strictly follow the speed limit.

License plates do not seem to prevent dangerous and illegal behavior in cars, why should they help for bikes?

I can stand at any corner in any city in the USA and count the percent of cars that stop vs the percent of bikes that stop. Bikes about 1 of 10 will stop. Cars at least 4 of 5 will stop. So, cyclists, 10% compiliance. car drivers, 80% compliance.

As for license plates, I'd like both cars and bikes to obey the law. The only way I see that happening is cameras and scanners. For that to stop bikes requires the bikes to also have plates.

Unclear what you traffic scenario you are referring to, but in some localities (such as WA state) it is legal for bikes to roll through stop signs in certain scenarios. This makes sense considering a bike’s speed, its rider’s engagement, and the overall difficulty of killing a pedestrian with a bike (compared to a vehicle).

The difference is of course that cyclists mostly endanger themselves where as cars mostly endanger others.

Cars and bikes behave differently, that’s not surprising. If you spend any time in traffic you will see many cars speeding and leaving enough space.

Now do one for speed limit compliance.

License plates absolutely prevent dangerous and illegal behavior in cars, just not 100% of it.

It's hilarious to see all the responses that are effectively "others break the law more!"

The license plate issue is that cities can, and are, adding more and more license plate scanners to catch cars. Those won't work for bicycles and ebikes (who drive like cyclists) unless they require license plates on bikes/ebikes and enforce. Yes, and enforce more on cars too.

Japan has bicycles with license plates. It's clearly possible.

They don't have license plates, they have mandatory registration stickers. You can't read it unless you look closely at the sticker while the bike is stopped. It's to identify owners of stolen bikes, not identifying running bikes.

To be clear, when the OP wrote "Japan has bicycles with license plates", it is important to clarify the term "bicycle". It would more accurate to say "motorized bicycle". If you ride something that looks like a bicycle where you can power it only with a throttle button (no pedalling required), then it requires a license plate, at least in Tokyo. Explanation here: https://www.city.inagi.tokyo.jp/en/kurashi/zeikin/1002693/10...

Also, you can ask Google AI for more sources and info using this prompt:

    japan when does a bike require a license plate?

Alright, a moped requires a plate. That's not a bike.

And I don't need to ask AI, I used an e-bike (without a licence plate) last week in Tokyo.

    > I used an e-bike (without a licence plate) last week in Tokyo.

Did you (1) need to pedal to get assistance, or (2) could you get power with a throttle button only? If #2, then you were breaking the law. It seems like police are not yet enforcing. In neighborhoods with a lot of "night life", I see this often with host-looking dudes. I expect 6-12 months after the law is activated, police will begin to crack down. (This is a pretty normal pattern when introducing new traffics laws in Japan.)

>> Please leave me alone and if someone uses a throttle bike in an illegal manner give them a ticket.

Well in most jurisidictions just the throttle is an "illegal manner", and if you're riding technical trails because of it I have no sympathy for your condition or improved quality of life; you're screwing it up for the rest of us. Maybe you should be the one who leaves.

I agree. I thought the electric motorcycle problem was overstated by people complaining online at first. Then they became popular around my house and I agree it’s a huge problem.

I’m fortunate enough to live around a lot of walking and mixed use trails for bikes and pedestrians. Recently they’re unsafe to use in the evenings because you have to be ready to jump out of the way of groups of kids (plus a few adults who should know better) going 45mph on electric bikes with throttles. They don’t even pretend to be e-bikes any more.

The big problem is that there is zero enforcement. If there was at least a chance that someone breaking these laws could lose their bike or have to pay thousands of dollars in fines I think we’d see a lot less of it. Right now everyone knows that they’re not going to get caught, so it’s a free for all.

why is the throttle the issue and not just the 45MPH? would it be better with pedals and people peddling along in some only-would-ever-make-sense-on-an-ebike gear, but still going 45?

the problem is recklessnesss and speed, restrict and enforce those things, don't just let the bike makers shift the product 10% and re-create exactly the same issue, but "legally"

> why is the throttle the issue and not just the 45MPH?

The bikes with throttles are not legally e-bikes, so the products on the market ignore all of the other e-bike restrictions too. They have much more power and higher top speeds.

Even if they were fully limited, pedaling ensure more rider engagement and changes how people ride them. When you have to put some effort, however small, into moving the bike around you ride differently than if it's an effortless throttle input.

There are plenty of ebikes with throttles that have less power than ebikes without throttles. E.g. a lectric xpress 500 has 500 watts, there are some pedal assist only bikes with 750 or more watts.

It's power and speed that matters, as you point out, so make regulation built on that. Heck, arguably pedal assist is a throttle, it's just a different mechanism vs a twist handle.

I believe this to be growing pains. Legislation hasn't yet fully adapted, some of the legislation I've seen makes the mistake of conflaing these, and enforcement is nonexistent in most places. I suspect that as time passes, we'll find ways of allowing ebikes to flourish. Around me the biggest thing I've seen is parents on cargo bikes taking their kids, and that's a demographic that elected officials tend to listen to.

We have the laws. What they’re doing is illegal. I think they need a higher tier of penalties for the repeat offenders, but that would require anyone getting caught first.

It’s an enforcement problem.

The riders know they’re riding where police cars can’t get them. They also know that the bike cops aren’t allowed to ride ultra powerful electric motorcycles. They also know they can just drive off across some grass into a park if anyone tries to stop them.

It’s a hard problem.

> I suspect that as time passes, we'll find ways of allowing ebikes to flourish.

Electric bikes are flourishing here. Electric motorcycles on bike paths are the problem.

I think the electric term is confusing the issue. If it helps, imagine that these were just really quiet but powerful gas powered dirt bikes riding on the pedestrian path. That should give you an idea of what’s going on.

> We have the laws. What they’re doing is illegal. … It’s an enforcement problem.

Because some people think laws only ever exist to restrain as a show of power over others and something is only illegal if you get caught.

And some people just want to be contrarian and acting against the law is the ultimate punching-up.

Some laws are just a good idea, and provide benefit, or even just expectation/predictability, to everyone.

Japan puts these uturn fences up. The sign near the uturn part says "get off your bike and walk it"

https://pasteboard.co/IlXSlFUOgULW.png

I'm not sure how I feel about them. I like that the made a way to get you off your bike. I dislike that the path seems plenty wide enough to accomodate bikes and that it would be a useful bike path or 1/2 bike path, but they want it to 100% pedestrian path, even though it's not remotely crowded.

Why are they illegal in the first place? Obviously people see value in such devices. They don't ride them for the sake of riding them without getting caught.

They have great utility, with their power, weight and size. They can be fast for sure, but it's also not on the same level as even a 300cc motorbike either - should they really be put into the same basket? How can that be enveloped by law - if it really has to be - without taking their utility away?

If the law is too restrictive, current users won't bother following, since the enforcement is so rare.

The discussion really depends on which country we're talking about, but basically speed bikes are not illegal. They're just considered as moped, meaning a 50cc motorbike and have to respect all the rules mopeds are subject to, such as:

- Having a license plate and back mirror

- Be insured

- Wear a helmet (not a bike helmet, a moped/motorcycle helmet)

- Drive on the road, not on bike lanes

Nobody is arguing they're equivalent to a 300cc motorbike.

I know what you're talking about, but a lot of people are conflating them. In some cases it is legislators like a recent attempt to require ebikes have to register and have a drivers' license for them. In others it's parents not realizing that they got their kids an electric dirt bike instead of an ebike. Of course, you do have the antisocial element of people not caring and actually seeking out these, but we need to separate the different problems to address them, as you are doing.

> In some cases it is legislators like a recent attempt to require ebikes have to register and have a drivers' license for them.

Has any legislation been passed or was this only a proposal?

Crazy legislation gets proposed all the time with no possibility of passing. Some times no intent of passing, either.

I made a comment below about the law that just passed in New Jersey. The short of it is "Anything with two wheels and a motor is now legally a motorcycle, and must follow all the laws and regulations of motorcycles.

Motorcycle cops can ride faster than any e-bike, and go anywhere a bicycle can.

A car too, but you might kill the suspect [1]. Chasing kids on e-bikes down with motorcycles is asking for deathly accidents to happen.

[1] https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2025/06/03/12-year-old-boy-dies...

Driving what's better described as an electric dirt bike with street tires through pedestrian paths is also asking for dead pedestrians?

That is not to be blamed on the cops. Let's try to be truthful.

This reaction is interesting to me. In many jurisdictions around the world, police are required to call off a chase if it is deemed unsafe for any reason.

In what world do you think it is OK for a 12-year-old boy riding an e-scooter to die after being chased by police? Before you respond: Ask yourself how you would react if it was your son (or close relative). Any parent would devasted.

I don't participate in clan mentality, where every tragedy has to be blamed on an outsider. An accident is tragic, it doesn't make it any less tragic that it was the kid's own fault. Or if you can't stand not having somebody else to blame, it's clearly the parent's fault.

Both sides are to be blamed, only one side are professional adults who are trained protect our community. A pursue is always dangerous, not only for the suspect but also for the cops and bystanders so it should not be done if not absolutely necessary.

Setting aside the question who is to be blamed, using motorcycles to pursue kids on bikes will cause the deaths of more kids. Is that a price worth paying? No.

As someone who has spent a lot of time riding both bicycles and motorized things, this is not true at all.

I could hop my bicycle over curbs that would bring a police motorcycle to a halt, or even toss a bike over a fence and then pick it up on the other side if I wanted. Or I could dip into the trees near the bike path where a police motorcycle has no chance of maneuvering.

Buy that time there cop is also on foot to chase you down.

This is not even remotely true.

in my area, one of the biggest groups using those vehicles were food delivery riders. for those guys, those electric mopeds were a gamechanger, as they were able to make many more runs that might have made the difference between "just enough" and "just not enough". now those are becoming illegal (on bike paths & without registration), but they're not making sense one the roads due to congestion. it's a lose-lose situation for the delivery riders and the people that order online, but a win for bicycle safety.

as far as i can tell most full time riders didn't switch to "pedal assisted e-bikes" but probably went looking for other work. we're back to students riding their private bicycles to make some money on the side.

again, you're confusing/conflating the definition of ebike. The problem is not a senior or disabled person using a pedal assist bike; it's electronic motorcycles being ridden like they're bicycles, by underage, inexperienced kids without protection. This is going to turn out much worse for everybody; look what New Jersey has done for ALL ebikes because of the lack of understanding that there is a big difference between a pedal-assist mountain bike and an electronic motorcycle.

>> Starting January 20, 2026, all e-bike riders in New Jersey need three things: a license, registration, and insurance. You have until July 19, 2026 to get these sorted out.

You might have replied to the wrong subthread.

Try speed bumps ?

Cyclists on track bikes going 30+ mph on mixed use trails are almost as bad.

You either ride responsibly or you're a selfish asshole. The vehicle doesn't matter as much.

Over here track bikes are not road legal and people who can legit hit 30 mph for any amount of time is maybe 1/1000. Any 12 year old kid that can convince their parents to buy them a $1000 Chinese e-bike can hit 30mph with no effort. In no way are sports cyclists as bad a problem.

The problem is the rider not the bike.

Easy for you to say. I’ve almost hit a couple stupid kids on an e-bikes with throttles riding on suburban roads at night with no lights.

And I’m seeing more and more fuckwits ride fast on side walks and accelerate to jump of the sidewalk and into traffic. Almost hitting unsuspecting people on the sidewalk.

Community needs to police itself. Otherwise it’s just going to be waiting for a critical mass of deaths.

>> a couple stupid kids on an e-bikes with throttles

I'm going to respond every time I see this: not ebikes; these are electronic motorcycles.

And this is from someone who thinks ebike are pretty stupid; justified for old and disabled people but only ever seen ridden by fat dentists.

I don't understand that point. Why do e-bikes become better or more safe when you have to rotate your legs? Its really frustrating and silly that I have to go through the motions (literally) of riding a bicycle if I want to get the priviledge of using a bike lane or going without a license plate. (At least that's the case here in Germany AFAIK).

They could go ahead and make "fast electric bikes" and "slow electric bikes" or something as categories and that would make sense - but hinging the decision on whether your legs or your wrist is turning is illogical. I think it is actually morally charged - like you have to put in the work if you want the privilege.

Its easy, the accelerations are completely different and very hard to gauge. Also you have the elderly going speeds that does not mach their reactions, while also being unaware of how fast they are going. If you try biking with them it become very obvious how many dangerous situations they cause compared to true e-bike and normal bikes.

Pedal assist feels like amplifying your natural power. The boost it gives is perfectly matched with your own movements so it feels more like you are just super fit. And there is far less chance you can just slip and apply too much power unlike throttle controlled.

In my area, I think that non electric bikes are often more dangerous: they are often non tolerant of others and hesitant to slow down because of speed conservation. Especially in our hilly town. Easy "free" acceleration is plus here.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

We can focus on clamping down of "faux pedal ebikes" when the time comes, but for now it looks like we'll be throwing out everything to just to stop teenagers on surrons.

It's because absolutely everyone understands the proportional nature of "press pedals to go" while nobody without special training understands "turn wrist to go", especially not the crucial details of "untwist wrist to stop" and "by the way don't yank open the throttle while attempting a sharp turn".

> Why do e-bikes become better or more safe when you have to rotate your legs?

Because you're directly engaged in operating them. Electric handcycles are also legal, the problem isn't which body part it is, it's whether you're moving muscles to move your bike - and, perhaps more importantly, that your bike will stop accelerating when you stop your body.

How much riding does it take to hold 25mph? 12 months of solid riding? (This is being generous, many people will never hold this speed)

How much riding does it take to twist your arm 30 degrees?

You don’t see a difference?

Why would people have a hard time doing 25mph on a pedal assist bike that isn't limited to less than that?

They're talking about riding a regular bike at 25mph. Most people can't sustain that.

Most people cannot sustain it on a 750w mid drive e-bike either.

Are ebikes not legally restricted to 250W-ish in most countries?

That's the limit for continuous rated power. The motor's frequently have 600W-750W of peak power output, and can legally use this much for short amounts of time (usually seconds, like accelerating from a stop; but often also for going up a steep hill for several minutes).

Why does it matter how much riding it takes?

The point in distinguishing the different classes is about where the bike should fit into the ecosystem. Should it ride on the shoulder, interacting with pedestrians and slower bikes, or should it ride on the road, interacting with cars and motorcycles.

It doesn’t matter how much riding it takes, it matters how fast and controlled it is moving compared to the other traffic in that class.

The answer is cyclist gatekeeping? Or did I misunderstand your point?

"hinging the decision on whether your legs or your wrist is turning is illogical"

No it's not, it's recognizing the psychology between "big push with foot makes go fast" and "pressing button makes go fast".

Besides, if the only thing that matters is speed, then logically you'd have to require normal pushbikes to register as well, once cyclists are able to pedal sufficiently fast.

> recognizing the psychology between "big push with foot makes go fast" and "pressing button makes go fast".

And what is the psychological difference? As far as I'm concerned when I'm using torque-sensing pedal assist, I'm just pressing the button with my foot. The distinction between throttle and pedal assist is non existent in my eyes: pedal assist is just pressing the throttle with your foot.

Motor wattage and top speed is what matters.

I really like a low speed throttle, like 3-5mph max is fine. 20mph is too fast and results in ebikes basically designed a motorcycles that cannot be pedaled. The throttle is so nice to have to get started quickly like turning left at a light, if you didn't have time to downshift before stopping, on a hill, or if the bike is heavily loaded with stuff. Its also nice to be able to use to slowly move between cars with your feet off the pedals to keep balance if needed.

Those are legal, at least in the EU. It's called "push support" or "walk assist", my bike engages it when I long-press the down button. It's purpose is to help you push the heavy e-bike up ramps and hills, but I mainly use it as a throttle when I ride behind my toddler on his balance bike.

It's closer to 3mph than 5mph, and as such needs some slow-riding skills, but it works.

One of my bikes without a thumb throttle has this but there is a bit of delay from the long-press required which I don't like compared to the basically instant response of the thumb throttle. It also requires a bit for attention to press the small button vs the throttle you can keep your eyes on the road.

> Pedal assist ebikes are incredible, and really just turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists

The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists.

In particular quite a few elderly people seem to have picked it up in my city, they aren't quite strong riders but definitely seem able of adapting to normal traffic. It also seems like a significantly safer option for individual transport than cars (especially in regards to the other traffic participants).

> The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists.

That's exactly my use case. I've got a bad leg and this thing made all the difference for longer rides.

I am impressed by your solution and I took have at least one bad leg. I have decided against batteries in favour of a basic bike that I can park anywhere and carry up stairs. I want the little and often mobility with a few longer rides over summer. I also have a neighbour in his late seventies that rides 'naturally aspirated' with a buddy that is two years older. His buddy has an ebike and he is giving it a couple of years before he goes electric.

Being younger than him, I feel that I need to stick with 'naturally aspirated'.

I am interested in going the other way to get a dynamo with that switchable between lighting and USB power, for my phone and speakers. There is 3A at 6V to play with.

Ultimately I would want mild hybrid, with regen so all assistance is pedal powered.

I'm 60+ it was either the e-bike, wreck my leg even further or take the car. That was an easy choice :)

Be careful with what you've got... I wish every day that I could do the day I messed up my leg again without making that particular mistake. I rode a low racer recumbent at speed and had a nasty case of leg suck when hitting a (new to me) speedbump.

> leg suck

I’d never heard of this and looked it up. It sounds awful.

https://www.utahtrikes.com/ARTICLE-119.html

It is. Life changing event that one. And it is not just trikes, low racer recumbents have the same problem (only worse, because they are much faster, they are probably some of the fastest bikes you can ride). I was literally airborne for a bit after already breaking my leg so this was the worst of all possible combinations other than that my head was not impacted at all due to posture (and wearing a helmet).

The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists.

You mean, turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists, like GP said? :-)

No. Reduced mobility doesn't mean "weak." It means reduced mobility. It's right there in the words. People who cannot pedal much at all, even the motion, no matter how light it is. Joint issues / surgery, deformities, etc.

Don't be smarmy.

If you can't pedal at all, then an e-bike definitionally won't help you. An e-moped might be suitable.

You just repeated W²s point.

Elderly on a basically unlicensed motorcycle is a good recipe for injury. Pretty sure the stats look bad for this group especially

A throttle is excellent on an e-bike especially for city riding. It is far easier to move at slow speeds by applying a small amount of throttle vs. trying to torque the pedals just the right amount, if behind someone or near pedestrians.

Many e-bikes don't have torque sensors and instead use a cheap rotation sensor so the motor engages almost randomly at certain points in pedal rotation when moving at slow speed.

> Many e-bikes don't have torque sensors and instead use a cheap rotation sensor so the motor engages almost randomly at certain points in pedal rotation when moving at slow speed.

Today, those are mostly limited to Walmart-tier quality e-bikes. Even the very next step up (still big box store bikes) usually come with torque sensors.

I think there are many more factors to it than that. I own a Radwagon, a cargo e-bike and I take my kids to school on it. It’s both pedal assist and has a throttle and maxes out at 20mph. I find the throttle very useful because the bike is pretty damn heavy with two kids on it and moving from a standing stop is much easier when I can give it a quick throttle burst then start pedalling.

All that said, I do agree the term is overloaded. The bike lines in NYC often have people riding electric mopeds in them and that feels dangerous. Their max speed is clearly way above 20mph and they’re bulky. They belong on the road with other mopeds. So IMO the definition of ebike should factor in max speed more than it should throttle vs not.

(And also, seconding the awesomeness of ebikes. My kids love riding on it and it’s allowed us to take so many trips that would have been difficult otherwise. It’s also allowed us to avoid buying a car, for now at least)

The problem with max speed is that while big legit ebike manufacturers respect it (e.g. you can't buy a Bosch ebike in the UK that will go above 15.5mph), you can easily get Chinese models that don't care, or you can mod other bikes that do fairly easily.

I don't know what the solution is tbh.

Why not just define the law in terms of maximum speed and be fine with it? Why nitpick over control modes?

I can guarantee that if I asked 10 random cops what the restrictions are of a Class 2 e-bike not more than 1 could answer, but if I asked them to stop people who were going over 30mph on the bike trail they could figure it out.

I agree the control mode restrictions are dumb. Lime-style ebikes have their assist set so high that you don't need to put any effort at all into pedaling. Effectively the pedals are the throttle.

But anyway that's nothing to do with the problem of ebike hooligans. The law is also defined in terms of maximum speed. Anyone going over 15.5mph (without pedaling really hard) is breaking the law.

It's not ambiguous when this is happening; it's just impractical for the police to do anything about it.

You can't "easily" modify an electric brushless motor to go faster than its Kv limit, to handle more current than its magnetic saturation limit, or to exceed the limits of back-EMF.

99% of the people whinging about ebikes have no idea what they're talking about.

There are people claiming in this very thread that kids are modding their "e-bikes" to go "45mph."

The power levels required to push a hybrid bicycle to 45mph is north of 3000W and thus well beyond the capabilities of the motors and battery packs in nearly all electric bicycles. Even the e-motos struggle to hit those speeds; you need a pretty high end, expensive one to do so.

Nobody is building ebikes that are physically speed limited by the motor windings. The top speed of a motor depends on load, and it's impossible to predict the exact load of a motor in a bike with a rider. Even if you could, the amount of excess torque available as you got near the top speed would be tiny - it wouldn't be fun to ride.

Speed limits are universally based on measured speed - either at the wheel or motor.

No, what the modders do is just disable the velocity dependent power limit on the standard e-bike power controllers. The easiest/hackiest way to do that is to install a pulse rate divider on the tachometer cables - bike goes 30mph, controller thinks it's going 10mph and delivers full power. This messes up the mileage counter and is trivially easy for the cops to spot, but it'll work.

> The power levels required to push a hybrid bicycle to 45mph is north of 3000W

Yeah, 45 mph is hyperbole. 45 kph is very easily doable on a standard 750W e-bike motor with <$1 of additional electronics. At that point it's all aero, so going even faster is mostly about rider position and bike geometry (those scooter looking things are going to be slower than a proper bike on 29" wheels).

Well, you can switch from high efficiency to field weakening once you run out of supply voltage to handle full field back EMF as you increase speed.

That can readily double your speed on flat or downhill terrain if normal torque is sized to give good acceleration from standstill.

To me, that sounds like a task for your country’s lawmakers, rather than “Just don't call them ebikes”

Motorbikes need training, a license, insurance, registration, a minimum age, etc - and you’re competing with small petrol motorcycles which are cheap new, and plentiful on the used market.

E-bike makers aren’t going to volunteer for that - it’d destroy their business.

yeah this seems to be the catch 22 to me. the laws are out there to limit the e-bikes to speeds and power. i want an irresponsibly powered one because i have an endorsement and want a non-sketch electric motorcycle that isn't mad expensive compared to petrol bikes in north america.

but because that would indeed kill their market because most people don't have motorcycle licenses, no one gets them approved, or countries won't allow them.

New Jersey just passed some of the most onerous and short sighted ebike laws in the world last month.

Basically anything that has two wheels and a non-human energy source drive is now a motorcycle, requiring a license, registration (including a license plate), insurance, and a DOT approved motorcycle helmet, as well as This law came on the back of two teens being killed on ebikes last year.

This is the exact kind of idiotic knee-jerk legislation that will come from the public and governments general ignorance on the state of electric tandem wheel transportation.

So now in New Jersey, Betsy with her class 1 250W pedal assist ebike must get her license and don her motorcycle helmet while only riding on roads with her insured, registered, and license plated 15 mph bicycle.

Lawmakers aren't going to do their homework, they will just kneejerk appease the general public.

This is what happens when ebike companies take every opportunity to skirt the laws like putting easily removable limiters on motorcycles with pedals and a chain with a gear ratio that makes pedalling practically impossible.

I don't know if there was an existing attempt at regulation in NJ specifically but that's happening all around the country.

The problem is that, while ebikes have a ton of really good use cases, the big market for them is basically kids who want to drive a motorcycle before they're allowed. Ebike companies are going to try to sell to that market any way they can.

Why is it even legal to import illegal bikes into a country? Shut this thing at the source, make Amazon & co liable for ebikes that don't respect national legislation. The entire problem disappears in 6 months.

What national legislation are you even talking about?

One that prevents consumers from buying an electric motor and some batteries to run around their own property on? Good luck with that!

I doubt most people buy a motor and batteries and install them. I'm willing to bet 99% of accidents happen on cheap Chinese built ebikes.

>E-bike makers aren't going to volunteer for that it'd destroy their business.

Arguably, complete bans will be even worse for business.

The throttle isn't a problem, the top speed is. A throttle and pedal assist is nice because you can get started faster and more safely from a stop.

Kids riding out of spec motorcycles has always been illegal and always will be. The only problem is that they are a lot cheaper than they used to be.

As an alternative mode of transportation, that could/should replace car usage for many people, I think we need to separate the two completely as well. The throttle version needs to be regulated more like a motorcycle or moped. This would take it out of the hands of most kids and cause license suspension worries for young adults and other reckless users. I agree they are essentially death machines and governments generally have no sane approach to regulating them.

That said, I think the e-moto versions have more potential towards alleviating traffic or being an alternative mode of transportation as most people don’t want to peddle at all. E-bikes are great, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that would ever be on the average Joe’s list of feasible alternatives.

There is nothing standing in the way of electric motorcycles.

People get e-motos because it is effectively a motorcycle, except it doesn't have any road legality requirements. People treat them like bicycles that can just magically go 50mph.

That's the problem, they need to be regulated more like motorcycles so there is differentiation between them and the real e-bikes. Treating them as the same does no good

> most people don’t want to peddle at all.

Most people don't want a two-wheeler, period. Otherwise everyone would be riding motorcycles. People want a vehicle that will keep them dry, comfortable, and safe. Two-wheelers of all types fail at all of those things.

Plenty of people will ride two wheelers if the infrastructure is good. Most places in the world just have crap infrastructure for using bicycles safely and calmly.

I tend to agree more with GP, at least in the western world.

People I know and pretty certain a huge percentage of the US start their day getting dolled up. Hair, makeup, clothes, etc each and every day. Even without the physical excursions of peddling, people don’t want to be exposed to the dirty outside air and especially dealing with the elements. The want to move from one climate controlled setting to another including their transportation system.

The Netherlands where biking is common has a completely different norm for style, dress, fashion and even hygiene because they’ve become so used to biking. The rest of the western world has some work to do in those areas or some realities to face if they ever wanted to actually get on board with bicycling as transportation.

> Even without the physical excursions of peddling,

Physical exertion of pedalling :-)

Also, ebikes. Going slow. In non-hot climates people don't really sweat on bikes. Especially if the bike infra is good (so distances are short due to bike overpasses, bridges, tunnels, etc) and safe (so no stress due to having to avoid getting hit by cars).

> people don’t want to be exposed to the dirty outside air

Said "dirty air" is only dirty because of cars. Vicious cycle, catch 22.

> The rest of the western world has some work to do in those areas or some realities to face if they ever wanted to actually get on board with bicycling as transportation.

That's the real problem, and it's even worse, and it ties in with this:

> The want to move from one climate controlled setting to another including their transportation system.

Laziness/convenience. People don't really realize that convenience kills. Life is too comfortable and our bodies aren't made for being bored and comfortable 24/7. They can go crazy and do stuff like increase autoimmune attacks (and many other things, a lot of our internal systems function worse when not used).

> could/should replace car usage for many people

Motorcycles already did that. E-bikes or E-motos do not bring any advantages compared to normal motorbikes, so you shouldn't expect many people to switch.

Cheaper, quieter, smaller footprint for storage, can be easily brought up a few stairs or put in the back of your car (by one person), slower (a perceived safety advantage by some, as most motorcycles can go highway speed), maintenance is less daunting (again, perceived), culture (perceived) as some people are quite turned off by motorcycle culture, and many many more.

One of the major problems with ebikes is the existence of cars and related infra.

Motorcycles have all those advantages against cars, except being able to bring them indoors. Yet people aren't all riding around on motorcycles. E-Bikes have their niche, but they're not going to replace cars, since motorcycles didn't.

Motorcycle culture is something you choose if you participate in. If you're a lady commuting to work on a scooter, few people will expect you to participate in that.

I think they're significantly more approachable than ICE motorcycles. But, what they share is common and a major adoption hinderance in Western world - we just like dry safe climate controlled boxes a lot, it's comfortable.

I think e-motos have a better chance of replacing cars than e-bikes ever do though. The scale of our cities and distance people travel almost necessitate the higher speeds. It will become more popular as economics force it, if the average car keeps costing more and groceries too, while wages stay pretty flat, well groceries will eventually win.

Actually, the economic forces being what they are, have average car age at an all time high in the US [0]. It is likely that once these old cars die off; a large portion of people simply will not be able to afford new cars and at some point the supply of used cars will be insufficient and people will be forced to entertain cheaper alternatives.

[0] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/average-u-s-vehicle-age...

Is $$$ not an advantage? Motorbikes are at least triple the price AIUI, not to mention more regulated. The main advantage of an ebike is that it's basically a pushbike (in terms of cost) but it lets you be lazy and unfit while still using it successfully as if you were fit.

Yes, there's a few extra hundred bucks in cost, and there's an electricity bill for charging it, but frankly that's nothing. You can buy an ebike for 3 digits, and you could include the power bill in that figure and not notice.

> Is $$$ not an advantage?

Of course not, since motorcycles are much much cheaper than cars.

“E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes”

This is simply wrong and does a disservice to the growing eBike interest. The US-federally defined classes are proper and while IMO overly limiting (max speed should be 60kph and still classified as an eBike as it’s simply safer in traffic), they adequately classify what is an eBike and what is not, and having a throttle does not make something not an eBike, but max speed and power.

People have this urge to classify their limited version of what something is by how they use it with some desire to belittle others, and want to limit everyone else who have completely different requirements and capabilities and desires. eBikes in most US states can be ridden on sidewalks, in bike lanes, in traffic, on trails, and across a grassy meadow. There is no justifiable reason to require someone to have different eBikes to be able to do all those things with comfort and safety and capability and utility when a well engineered eBike can do all of them. That they might be safer with circumstantially restricted speeds, such as overtaking pedestrians, etc. again does mean multiple eBikes should be mandated to be able to do each of them.

In the US, hopefully the next administration will buy a vowel and realize they need to set federal standards and eliminate this hodgepodge state and county and city and park and street and neighborhood capricious variety of who can ride what when and where, and with what gear and at what times and for what reasons. If decisions are made that no one under 13 can ride an eBike, and then only to school until you’re 16, and you must wear a helmet until at least 19, then at least there will be consistent rules for people to argue for and against.

60kmph / 37mph is very fast for somebody who might just be wearing a bicycle helmet (hopefully). If traffic is going that fast, I think it may just not be the appropriate place for a bicycle to be. I've gone that fast on an e-bike before, and it doesn't feel comfortable nor safe.

I agree with having a good helmet, however to be honest my first motorbike ride and car drive at 60kmh were terrifying. Also many people never bicycle even in a 30kmh limites zone because they don’t feel safe.

But I don’t want to downplay speed, as you noted it’s probably the key: most motorbike death are because speed or loose of control without involving any other vehicle. Also small cylinders (< 50cc) are almost absent in the death toll. If suicidal motorbikes with good helmet are allowed, so should be the bicyclists (with good helmet).

Suicidal motorbikes are allowed with license and insurance though. Not saying that's optimal for public safety, but that's a big distinction.

I think that's the logical line between e-bikes an electric motos: at what power or speed do you want to start requiring some kind of licensing or insurance?

Yeah licensing and plates would be interesting. Although an e-bike is lighter than a scooter and will make less damage to the other person, the driver weight is probably signifiant too.

Not sure how that works in the US but in France (and probably Europe?) everyone supposed to get a "civil responsibility insurance" that will cover many thinks including accidents on non-insured (legal) vehicle.

> my first motorbike ride and car drive at 60kmh were terrifying

Maybe those should be more tightly regulated.

People ride analog pedal bikes all the time in places with road traffic and they impede that traffic when they are going slower - I’ve known more people hurt because someone tried to pass them when they’re departing a traffic light or needing to turn across traffic than from falling down while going “too fast”. It’s frequently more than getting yelled at when multi-ton vehicles intentionally pass by you so close you feel the wind push you away. Being able to go about 35mph puts you at a pace where someone in a car stuck behind you is much more likely to exhibit a little patience.

EBikes are popular and growing like crazy, especially outside the US. There’s somewhere over 30 million in India alone, estimated to double in five years. Their presence is not going away, even in the US, but it takes serious time and desire to get protected bike lanes built. Where I live there’s 6 grocery stores within 3 miles in either direction - and all on the other side of a 4 lane road. You end up riding in the road for part of the trip, and it’s more dangerous from relatively heavy traffic if you’re going 15 instead of 35 for even that short distance.

It is difficult to know whether going faster is overall safer. In my experience, some fraction of cars will pass a bicycle under any conditions, no matter what speed that bicycle is going (even if keeping up with traffic above the speed limit), no matter how dangerous it might be, no matter if the bicycle has "taken the lane" leaving no room to pass safely -- for some car drivers, it is about getting ahead of the bicycle.

Why do you think it is bad for communities to set their own standards?

Because if a eBike meets already well defined federal class specifications it is considered a eBike, and not a motor vehicle, and other than setting reasonable speed limits in high foot-traffic areas, local regulations do nothing but complicate life.

I wouldn't want an e-bike precisely because I can't trust my government not to introduce some new legislation with onerous rules or extra costs. Maybe if they were cheap, but since they cost an arm and a leg there's no reason to get them.

You can get a perfectly workable brand new E-Bike for about $1,000 in the US. While that isn’t cheap as chips it’s also not a major investment for middle class individuals.

The cost wouldn't necessarily be in the bike, but in requirements for mandatory paid registration, licensing classes, insurance, inspection, and safety equipment.

Saving fuel and parking cost adds up fairly quickly if you have a sensible setup.

However as a cycle commuters I’m not sure it saves much money over driving if done wrong. I’ve got a glorious bike. I chew through parts and consumables at an expensive rate.

Have you ever owned a motorcycle or are you making up dramatic terminology to prove a point?

The quick e-bikes aren’t motorcycles, not even close. Something in the Sur Ron class (30-40MPH) would be equivalent to a 50cc 2 stroke which you can ride with nothing more than a drivers license. Even then hopped up Talaria’s are a pit bike and don’t remotely approach a low end sports bike.

Fast e-bikes aren’t bicycles but they aren’t motorcycles. We already have a term for that, mopeds and scooters. Instead of banning everything the clear solution would be to treat them the same as mopeds (Have to be 18, wear a helmet, may or may not need a license) and call it a day without all the drama.

I think e-motos should be as lightly regulated as possible. The regulations on bike paths should be speed, not pedal vs. non-pedal. And since "bikes" aren't regulated but "mopeds" are, you see people avoiding government BS by shipping e-bikes that have "off-road" mode that enables no-pedal throttles.

I have a disability and can't pedal for many minutes or hours straight, but my electric scooter with a throttle is absolutely amazing for helping me get around areas that would otherwise require tons of walking (or pedaling). I guess I'm a demon that needs to be regulated out of existence?

I propose a new and improved e-bike classification scheme:

Class A: Bikes that can not go over 10mph via a throttle. And can’t go over 28mph with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph if you’re feeling especially conservative.

Class B-Class infinity: These aren’t considered bikes. Class A is the only class of e-bike.

> And can’t go over 28mph with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph if you’re feeling especially conservative.

That doesn't seem _that_ conservative, honestly. Lots of places have a 20mph/30km/h limit for _cars_ in urban areas.

There are plenty of long, straight, flat roads around town here, where riding at 28mph would be perfectly safe. People driving feel free to go 30+mph, after all. My e-bike's assist only goes up to 20mph, which I can sustain even without assist on many of those roads. I'd guess 25mph would be about as fast as I could go with assist while still feeling safe on a bike.

Fixed for metric:

>Class A: Bikes that can not go over 10mph (16km/h) via a throttle. And can’t go over 28mph (45km/h) with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph (32km/h) if you’re feeling especially conservative.

In Australia, the pedal-assist limit is 25km/h (~15.5mph). And frankly, that's plenty.

A major problem is there not being a way a city can legally speed limit a road such that it can ticket cars who go faster than what the bikes allow assisted.

If you take away their legal reasons for overtaking you while you go as far as the bike let's you and there's nothing ahead of you, you've already massively reduced the amount of dangerous overtaking, and you can aggressively police the remaining overtaking for speeding without having to prove they are overtaking in a dangerous manner.

Disagree, the wattage of the motor is what's relevant. A 750 watt ebike with pedal assist has more potential to cause harm than a 250 watt "emoto" with a throttle.

The whole throttle vs pedal assist distinction makes way less sense than delineating the difference based on power.

Wattage is basically meaningless. There is nk standard way to measure it. Almost all "250 watt" ebikes consume much more than 250 watts of electricity at full throttle, and can produce much more than 250 watts of mechanical output for seconds or minutes at a time.

The fact they listed wattage and actual peak wattage is different doesn't change the fact that an e-bike's power, not whether the throttle is connected to the handle bars or the pedal, is what actually creates fast and dangerous bikes.

If regulation based on power was drafted, it'd be a simple matter of using a voltmeter and galvanometer to see if a bike is compliant with power limits (arguably motors have different efficiencies, but electric motors are close enough to 100% to use this method).

The distinctions drawn here are particularly interesting in China.

Somewhere like Shanghai, you'll see ~70% of traffic in "bike" lanes are what appear to be electric mopeds.

But if you look closer, all of these mopeds technically have tiny attachment points for pedals. Government regulations allowed e-bikes to be driven unlicensed (but with a special green license plate, unlike the US!) and wherever bicycles are allowed. At the same time, the delivery industry and commuters wanted something stable, capable of carrying cargo/passengers. So the form factor adopted was that of mopeds, while vestigial pedal attachments were provided in order to pass as "e-bikes" under the regulatory criteria. Example. [0]

In practice, using pedals on these made for a clunky experience so they were not usually attached at all. The other main regulatory criterion was that these have to be limited to <= 25 km/h, unlike true mopeds/motorcycles. In practice, these speed limiters were also removed, setting up a cat-and-mouse game between police and riders.

The rule requiring the vestigial pedals was finally removed a few months ago, meaning that the ontology of "e-bikes" is pretty different in China now. [1] (Pedal-assist traditional bike frames also exist, but they share space with the larger mopeds in bike lanes and bike parking. True electric mopeds and motorcycles also exist, but they are effectively regulated out of existence in big cities.)

At the end of the day, top speeds are more determinant of whether different modes of transportation can coexist than pedals or form factor.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/r4HAUJDQT1w [1] https://chinamotorworld.com/chinese-e-bike-new-standard/

There's not much difference between a throttle and a sufficiently powerful pedal-assist. Switch to your top gear, and the torque-sensor will say "gee that's a steep hill, let me give you a boost" the moment you start pedalling.

Banning throttles just makes manufacturers install token pedals on the motorbikes.

In theory maybe, but in reality pedal assist bikes are far more likely to be compliant with speed and power restrictions and designed to feel like a bike. While throttle bikes are almost always sold as dirt bikes for use on private property.

When I think of throttle assist in an e-bike my thought is not about dirt bikes but instead the incredibly common low end cadence sensing e-bikes that are hard to get started from a stop.

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