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Comment by xiphias2 | Hacker News Reader

USA is still one of the top countries for scientists. Just as an example Europe had a few years of exporting the best GLP-1 drugs (finally something in which Europe was leader in science), Eli Lily quickly took it over.

In software San Francisco is still the top for AI research: even when Peter Steinberger didn't know what he will do with OpenClaw, it was clear to him that the only place to move to was USA.

Terrence Tao was a good example of what happens when an exceptionally smart person stops getting funded by an American University: not moving to another country, but got VC money and created a new company.

USA politics is looked at so closely, because it matters and changes and still more democratic than most countries in the world even though democracy is a mess (as it's supposed to be).

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> Just as an example Europe had a few years of exporting the best GLP-1 drugs (finally something in which Europe was leader in science), Eli Lily quickly took it over

You make it sound like Europe was not a leader in any area of science until this one thing which they led in for a few years.

> Terrence Tao was a good example of what happens when an exceptionally smart person stops getting funded by an American University: not moving to another country, but got VC money and created a new company

No, he's an example of what can happen when a Fields medalist gets funding cut. 99% of exceptionally smart university mathematicians and scientists will not be able to get VC money.

With the US both cutting research funding and becoming unfriendly to foreign students many future Tao's that would have chosen a US school for grad school will likely look elsewhere.

Terrence Tao expressed sentiments are at odds with you and which align with the article:

> The U.S. used to be sort of the default, the no brainer, option. If you got an offer from a top U.S. university, this was like almost the best thing that could happen to you as an academic ... If it's just a less welcoming, atmosphere for science in general here, the best and brightest may not automatically come to the US as they have for decades.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skWt_PZosik

A more lengthy article about his resentment against the government: https://newsletter.ofthebrave.org/p/im-an-award-winning-math...

He has a point, but there are no obvious alternatives. It's still a long way towards fascism for USA to actually lose its attractiveness, and it's not that other countries are getting more democratic either

Canada and EU are currently far more attractive if not getting kidnapped by the government and sent to an El Salvadorian torture camp is a priority for you.

How many PhDs have been sent to El Salvador? EU doesn't nearly have the career opportunities as the US, even less so for foreigners. Canada might be slightly better, for its proximity to the US and being an English-speaking country

None, because if you have a PhD, you're smart enough not to try it.

It's definitely >0 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...

Canada can't even keep their own citizen anyone trying for much of anything comes to the USA same with the EU.

For mathematics Europe is an obvious alternative. The US and Europe produce about the same level of high level mathematics research per year.

> I's still a long way towards fascism for USA to actually lose its attractiveness

Hard disagree. They are on a road to totalitarianism. Unless there's a quite violent change of course, it's just going to get much worse.

Have you not seen the president and his people go after: Political opponents, Attorneys, Leaders and workers in the government who dare to disagree, Immigrants and tourists with the wrong opinions, Journalists (because they power and can expose some of the lies and corruption).

Have you not seen the Trump family and friends becoming very rich, and giving out contracts to their friends?

Have you not seen the government being weaponist against the maga "enemies" ?

This is what fascism looks like.

This is all bad, but the real test will be the next presidential elections and, to a lesser extent, midterms. If you can vote a dictator out, it's not a real dictatorship.

And again, I'm not really seeing Europe staying democratic for long after the fall of the USA

> but the real test will be the next presidential elections and, to a lesser extent, midterm

Sorry, but that is just extremely naive. Just look at how this usually works. Or look at what the orange fuckhead tried the last time. Now, repeat, but with much more power and influence in all the right places, from government to big tech.

Sorry, I am not from the USA, but like many people know a lot more about it than I would like - still might be missing some context because of that. I am not sure how it really works - all these people who now support Trump in achieving their goals - why would they want to support him in staying in power indefinitely? Isn't it clear that when there is no democracy, their opinion doesn't matter anymore? It's still very non-obvious to me that US as a whole will let that happen.

Me neither, and same!

I have no idea, but many keep supporting him through all of the above. So what would make them stop?

I hope you're right, but it's not looking good so far :/

Let me put your mind at ease, the version of US politics you think is happening is just a mirage. As in it doesn't exist. Real US politics doesn't take place in the media anymore. Its all just propaganda now. Trump is a terrible statesman, but he is nothing like what is described by the media nor anything you mentioned in any real way nor are current events in any way unique or different from how the US functions normally. Its just that now it seems to be OK to call an ICE facility holding people to be deported (something that exists in almost every country) is now called a concentration camp in the media (and even in this thread). But Obama, Clinton and Bush deported about the same number of people as Trump. So please believe me, as someone who actually lives in the US, you are just watching a scripted reality show from another universe, not actual life in the US.

the difference between a prison and a concentration camp isn't the facility, but the prices by which people are brought there. Previous administrations deported people, but they deported people who were in the country illegally, as opposed to grad students who published op-eds disagreeing with the administration, refugees who entered the country legally and properly followed the asylum process, and US citizens.

Incarceration without process is not normal in the US or in any functioning democracy.

Not really, one is complaining, the other (which the article's title says) is voting with their feet. He could have gone to literally any country/university in the world and he chose not to.

Also in the USA you just wait 4 (or 8) years and you have a new president. In many other countries you don't have that luxury.

That is also the curse of the US now. If your funding will only last a single presidential term, you can't ensure a livelihood. The instability of US budgeting and the wildly different priorities of incoming presidents is a huge source of uncertainty and cost.

I fled SF and I know a bunch of similar people. Startups are still founded there for the address, not the local talent pool. The address is there because of inertia, not because of inherent advantage. If I were to create a startup I wouldn't even consider doing it in SF now. It is a waste of money that could be put towards the idea. The US is clearly on an ant-intellectual path. People default to here because of inertia but every attack on immigrants, every high level decision based on quack science and personal gain and every attack on our institutions supporting the development of the next generation is putting inertia elsewhere. It is clear as day that the US is only keeping any kind of advantage right now due to inertia and threat and not innovation and effort.

>In software San Francisco is still the top for AI research

What was the last thing that a major US Lab published? It's all trade secrets.

Chinese labs are the only ones publishing results as they happen.

The US is in the position it was for semiconductor manufacturing, first it was labs and open science. Then by the 80s fabs started costing millions and universities stopped being able to contribute and nothing got published.

Now it's getting to trillions and if Intel goes under there is no one in the US who knows how to make any semiconductor generation newer than 2010.

>What was the last thing that a major US Lab published? It's all trade secrets.

>Chinese labs are the only ones publishing results as they happen.

Google published the transformer architecture. Facebook published llama.

>Google published the transformer architecture.

In 2017. Then sat on it for five years.

llama hasn’t had a new version in over a year. off the top of my head there are at least 4 entire new series of Chinese based llms that have been open sourced

I'm not sure how making a copycat "me-too" drug, after one was successfully developed shows how innovative a country or company is?

You realize semaglutide wasn’t the first GLP-1 right?

The first GLP-1 was exenatide, invented in America and released in collaboration with Eli Lilly.

In addition tirzepatide and retatrutide are not “just” GLP-1s. You frankly do not know what you are talking about.

That is the intent of these government policies: Shift power and resources to powerful, wealthy private individuals (and their companies). Is Tao doing research?

This is a lagging indicator, it is still one of the top no question, but the point is that is shifting materially.

I find the Peter mention funny because some of the other reasons he said it made sense to move to SF were that labor laws in Europe wouldn’t allow him to work 6-7 days a week, and he’d have to focus more on safety/responsibility in mind in Europe.

He’s moving from London after all, arguably the global AI research hub.

(Also likely SA told him the offer was contingent on him relocating)

I have never had problem working (and seeing other people work) 6-7 days a week in reality in Europe (even if it was unofficial).

But capital structures and politicians are still too close to old European companies from the second world war and don't allow venture capital to florish.

It's easier to earn money by winning a fake EU tender and giving back half of the money to a politician than doing something innovative.

Nobody would stop him from working 6-7 days a week. Only for forcing his employees to do this involuntarily for him.

Kinda tells you all you need to know about US startup culture.

Pretty sure the US doesn’t allow involuntary servitude.

The Thirteenth Amendment makes it clear that it is permitted only by exception.

There are no work police in Europe who go round every workplace to make you log your hours working and arrest you if it's over 40.

I have visited USA but I never liked it enough to want to live there due to the culture being too extroverted for me. I moved to Singapore and like it a lot.

I don't think USA is a bad place, probably the best for your career but I don't see myself enjoying living there too much, although maybe I am generalizing because I only visited New York and SF.

What company did Tao fund with VC money?

I'm sorry, but LLM startups isn't science, it's the current gold rush. As impactful LLM stuff might or might not be in the future, it's just the current startup cash chase cycle.

Dodging work regulations is also not really "attracting talent". SF is an insane bubble and views itself as a much more intelletually important than it actually is.

> even when Peter Steinberger didn't know what he will do with OpenClaw, it was clear to him that the only place to move to was USA

We don't know how much OpenAI offered him, but I would bet big that it was enough to get most people to relocate across country lines. [To level-set: we know Meta was offering $100m pay packages to researchers who had not already released something like OpenClaw.]

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