Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
amutable.com
amutable.com
Sure, there are sensible things that could be done with this. But given the background of the people involved, the fact that this is yet another clear profit-first gathering makes me incredibly pessimistic.
This pessimism is made worse by reading the answers of the founders here in this thread: typical corporate talk. And most importantly: preventing the very real dangers involved is clearly not a main goal, but is instead brushed off with empty platitudes like "I've been a FOSS guy my entire adult life...." instead of describing or considering actual preventive measures. And even if the claim was true, the founders had a real love for the hacker spirit, there is obviously nothing stopping them from selling to the usual suspects and golden parachute out.
I was really struggling to not make this comment just another snarky, sarcastic comment, but it is exhausting. It is exhausting to see the hatred some have for people just owning their hardware. So sorry, "don't worry, we're your friends" just doesn't cut it to come at this with a positive attitude.
The benefits are few, the potential to do a lot of harm is large. And the people involved clearly have the network and connections to make this an instrument of user-hostility.
Of course, we’ll see if anybody is actually engaging with this idea in good faith when it all gets rolled out. Because the bank has full end-to-end control over the device, authentication will be fully their responsibility and the (basically bullshit in the first place) excuse of “your identity was stolen,” will become not-a-thing.
Obviously I would not pay for such a device (and will always have a general purpose computer that runs my own software), but if the bank or Netflix want to send me a locked down terminal to act as a portal to their services, I guess I would be fine with using it to access (just) their services.
It would quickly get out of hand if every online service started to do the same though. But, if remote device attestation continues to be pushed and we continue to have less and less control and ownership over our devices, I definitely see a world where I now carry two phones. One running something like GrapheneOS, connected to my own self-hosted services, and a separate "approved" phone to interact with public and essential services as they require crap like play integrity, etc.
But at the end of the day, I still fail see why this is even a need. Governments, banks, other entities have been providing services over the web for decades at this point with little issue. Why are we catering to tech illiteracy (by restricting ownership) instead of promoting tech education and encouraging people to both learn, and importantly, take responsibility for their own actions and the consequences of those actions.
"Someone fell for a scam and drained their bank account" isn't a valid reason to start locking down everyone's devices.
They would only do it to assert more control over you and in Netflix's case, force more ads on you.
It is why I never use any company's apps.
If they make it a requirement, I will just close my account.
This entire shit storm is 100% driven by the music, film, and tv industries, who are desperate to eke a few more millions in profit from the latest Marvel snoozefest (or whatever), and who tried to argue with a straight face that they were owed more than triple the entire global GDP [0].
These people are the enemy. They do not care about about computing freedom. They don't care about you or I at all. They only care about increasing profits via and they're using the threat of locking people out of Netflix via HDCP and TPM, in order to force remote attestation on everyone.
I don't know what the average age on HN is, but I came up in the 90s when "fuck corporations" and "information wants to be free" still formed a large part of the zeitgeist, and it's absolutely infuriating to see people like TFfounders actively building things that will measurably make things worse for everyone except the C-suite class. So much for "hacker spirit".
[0] https://globalnews.ca/news/11026906/music-industry-limewire-...
Poettering is a well-known Linux saboteur, along with Red Hat.Without RH pushing his trash, he is not really that big of a threat.
Just like de Icaza, another saboteur, ran off to MS. That is the tell-tell sign for people not convinced that either person's work in FOSS existed to cause damage.
No, this is not a snarky, sarcastic comment. Trust Amutable at your own peril.
Then gpu and cpu makers will hop on and lock their devices to promote paid Linux like redhat. Or offering "premium support" to unlock your gpu for Linux for a monthly fee.
They'll say "if you are a Linux enthusiast then go tinker with arm and risc on an SD card"
The integrity of a system being verified/verifiable doesn't imply that the owner of the system doesn't get to control it.
This sort of e2e attestation seems really useful for enterprise or public infrastructure. Like, it'd be great to know that the ATMs or transit systems in my city had this level of system integrity.
You argument correctly points out that attestation tech can be used to restrict software freedom, but it also assumes that this company is actively pursuing those use cases. I don't think that is a given.
At the end of the day, as long as the owner of the hardware gets to control the keys, this seems like fantastic tech.
Once it's out there and normalized, the individual engineers don't get to control how it is used. They never do.
I generally agree with the concept of "if you want me to use a pre-approved terminal, you supply it." I'd think this opens up a world of better possibilities. Right now, the app-centric bank/media company/whatever has to build apps that are compatible with 82 bazillion different devices, and then deal with the attestation tech support issues. Conversely, if they provide a custom terminal, it might only need to deal with a handful of devices, and they could design it to function optimally for the single use case.
The problem is that there are powerful corporate and government interests who would love nothing more than to prevent users from controlling the keys for their own computers, and they can make their dream come true simply by passing a law.
It may be the case that certain users want to ensure that their computers are only running their code. But the same technologies can also used to ensure that their computers are only running someone else's code, locking users out from their own devices.
Every time you perform an attestation the public key (and certificate) is divulged which makes it a unique identifier, and one that can be traced to the point of sale - and when buying a used device, a point of resale as the new owner can be linked to the old one.
They make an effort to increase privacy by using intermediaries to convert the identifier to an ephemeral one, and use the ephemeral identifier as the attestation key.
This does not change the fact that if the party you are attesting to gets together with the intermediary they will unmask you. If they log the attestations and the EK->AIK conversions, the database can be used to unmask you in the future.
Also note that nothing can prevent you from forging attestations if you source a private-public key pair and a valid certificate, either by extracting them from a compromised device or with help from an insider at the factory. DRM systems tend to be separate from the remote attestation ones but the principles are virtually identical. Some pirate content producers do their deeds with compromised DRM private keys.
People dislike cash for some strange reason, then complain about tracking. People also hand out their mobile number like candy. Same issue.
In my case it is because I would never have the right amount with me, in the right denominations. Google Pay always has this covered.
Also you need to remember to take one more thing with you, and refill it occasionally. As opposed to fuel, you do not know how much you will need when.
It can get lost or destroyed, and is not (usually) replaceable.
I am French, currently in the US. I need to change 100 USD in small denominations, I will need to go to the bank, and they will hopefully do that for me. Or not. Or not without some official paper from someone.
Ah yes, and I am in the US and the Euro is not an accepted currency here. So I need to take my 100 € to a bank and hope I can get 119.39 USD. In the right denominations.
What will I do with the 34.78 USD left when I am back home? I have a chest of money from all over the world. I showed it once to my kids when they were young, told a bit about the world and then forgot about it.
Money also weights quite a lot. And when it does not weights it gets lost or thrown away with some other papers. Except if they are neatly folded in a wallet, which I will forget.
I do not care about being traced when going to the supermarket. If I need to do untraceable stuff I will get money from teh ATM. Ah crap, they will trace me there.
So the only solution is to get my salary in cash, whihc is forbidden in France. Or take some small amounts from time to time. Which I will forget, and I have better things to do.
Cash sucks.
Sure, if we go cashless and terrible things happen (cyberwar, solar flare, software issues) then we are screwed. But either the situation unscrews itself, or we will have much, much, much bigger issues than money -- we will need to go full survival mode, apocalypse movies-style.
Which does exactly what I said. Full zero knowledge attestation isn't practical as a single compromised key would give rise to a service that would serve everyone.
The solution first adopted by the TCG (TPM specification v1.1) required a trusted third-party, namely a privacy certificate authority (privacy CA). Each TPM has an embedded RSA key pair called an Endorsement Key (EK) which the privacy CA is assumed to know. In order to attest the TPM generates a second RSA key pair called an Attestation Identity Key (AIK). It sends the public AIK, signed by EK, to the privacy CA who checks its validity and issues a certificate for the AIK. (For this to work, either a) the privacy CA must know the TPM's public EK a priori, or b) the TPM's manufacturer must have provided an endorsement certificate.) The host/TPM is now able to authenticate itself with respect to the certificate. This approach permits two possibilities to detecting rogue TPMs: firstly the privacy CA should maintain a list of TPMs identified by their EK known to be rogue and reject requests from them, secondly if a privacy CA receives too many requests from a particular TPM it may reject them and blocklist the TPMs EK. The number of permitted requests should be subject to a risk management exercise. This solution is problematic since the privacy CA must take part in every transaction and thus must provide high availability whilst remaining secure. Furthermore, privacy requirements may be violated if the privacy CA and verifier collude. Although the latter issue can probably be resolved using blind signatures, the first remains.
Or why buy used devices if this is a risk?
Hardware fingerprinting in general is a difficult thing to protect from - and in an active probing scenario where two apps try to determine if they are on the same device it's all but impossible. But having a tattletale chip in your CPU an API call away doesn't make the problem easier. Especially when it squawks manufacturer traceable serials.
Remote attestation requires collusion with an intermediary at least, DRM such as Widevine has no intermediaries. You expose your HWID (Widevine public key & cert) directly to the license server of which there are many and under the control of various entities (Google does need to authorize them with certificates). And this is done via API, so any app in collusion with any license server can start acquiring traceable smartphone serials.
Using Widevine for this purpose breaks Google's ToS but you would need to catch an app doing it (and also intercept the license server's certificate) and then prove it which may be all but impossible as an app doing it could just have a remote code execution "vulnerability" and request Widevine license requests in a targeted or infrequent fashion. Note that any RCE exploit in any app would also allow this with no privilege escalation.
Remote attestation shifts trust from user-controlled software to manufacturer‑controlled hardware identity.
It's a gun with a serial number. The Fast and Furious scandal of the Obama years was traced and proven with this kind of thing
I've been a FOSS guy my entire adult life, I wouldn't put my name to something that would enable the kinds of issues you describe.
History is pretty consistent here:
WhatsApp: privacy-first, founders with principles, both left once monetization and policy pressure kicked in.
Google: 'Don’t be evil' didn’t disappear by accident — it became incompatible with scale, revenue, and government relationships.
Facebook/Meta: years of apologies and "we'll do better," yet incentives never changed.
Mobile OS attestation (iOS / Android): sold as security, later became enforcement and gatekeeping.
Ruby on Rails ecosystem: strong opinions, benevolent control, then repeated governance, security, and dependency chaos once it became critical infrastructure. Good intentions didn't prevent fragility, lock-in, or downstream breakage.
Common failure modes:
Enterprise customers demand guarantees - policy creeps in.
Governments demand compliance - exceptions appear.
Liability enters the picture - defaults shift to "safe for the company."
Revenue depends on trust decisions - neutrality erodes.
Core maintainers lose leverage - architecture hardens around control.
Even if keys are user-controlled today, the key question is architectural: Can this system resist those pressures long-term, or does it merely promise to?
Most systems that can become centralized eventually do, not because engineers change, but because incentives do. That’s why skepticism here isn't personal — it's based on pattern recognition.
I genuinely hope this breaks the cycle. History just suggests it's much harder than it looks.
I can understand corporate use case - the person with access to the machine is not its owner, and corporation may want to ensure their property works the way they expect it to be. Not something I care about, personally.
But when it’s a person using their own property, I don’t quite get the practical value of attestation. It’s not a security mechanism anymore (protecting a person from themselves is an odd goal), and it has significant abuse potential. That happened to mobile, and the outcome was that users were “protected” from themselves, that is - in less politically correct words - denied effective control over their personal property, as larger entities exercised their power and gated access to what became de-facto commonplace commodities by forcing to surrender any rights. Paired with awareness gap the effects were disastrous, and not just for personal compute.
So, what’s the point and what’s the value?
Anyway, "full control over your keys" isn't the issue, it's the way that normalization of this kind of attestation will enable corporations and governments to infringe on traditional freedoms and privacy. People in an autocratic state "have full control over" their identity papers, too.
Until you get acquired, receive a golden parachute and use it when realizing that the new direction does not align with your views anymore.
But, granted, if all you do is FOSS then you will anyway have a hard time keeping evil actors from using your tech for evil things. Might as well get some money out of it, if they actually dump money on you.
Attestation of what to whom for which purpose? Which freedom does it allow users to control their keys, how does it square with remote attestation and the wishes of enterprise users?
Better security is good in theory, as long as the user maintains control and the security is on the user end. The last thing we need is required ID linked attestation for accessing websites or something similar.
it will be railroaded through in the same way that systemD was railroaded onto us.
If user control of keys becomes the linchpin for retaining full control over one's own computer, doesn't it become easy for a lobby or government to exert control by banning user-controlled keys? Today, such interest groups would need to ban Linux altogether to achieve such a result.
FOR NOW. Policies and laws always change. Corporations and governments somehow always find ways to work against their people, in ways which are not immediately obvious to the masses. Once they have a taste of this there's no going back.
Please have a hard and honest think on whether you should actually build this thing. Because once you do, the genie is out and there's no going back.
This WILL be used to infringe on individual freedoms.
The only question is WHEN? And your answer to that appears to be 'Not for the time being'.
It would be a lot more reassuring if we knew what the business model actually was, or indeed anything else at all about this. I remain somewhat confused as to the purpose of this announcement when no actual information seems to be forthcoming. The negative reactions seen here were quite predictable, given the sensitive topic and the little information we do have.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Suppose you wanted to identify potential agitators by scanning all communication for indications in a fascist state one could require this technology in all trusted environments and require such an environment to bank, connect to an ISP, or use Netflix.
One could even imagine a completely benign usage which only identified actual wrong doing alongside another which profiled based almost entirely on anti regime sentiment or reasonable discontent.
The good users would argue that the only problem with the technology is its misuse but without the underlying technology such misuse is impossible.
One can imagine two entirely different parallel universes one in which a few great powers went the wrong way in part enabled by trusted computing and the pervasive surveillance enabled by the capability of AI to do the massive and boring task of analyzing a massive glut of ordinary behaviour and communication + tech and law to ensure said surveillance is carried out.
Even those not misusing the tech may find themselves worse off in such a world.
Why again should we trust this technology just because you are a good person?
PE or EIT?
- your bank won't let you log in from an "insecure" device.
- you won't be able to play videos on an "insecure" device.
- you won't be able to play video games on an "insecure" device.
And so on, and so forth.
the anti-user attestation will at least be full of security holes, and likely won't work at all
To anyone thinking not possibile, we already switched inits to systemd. And being persnickety saw mariadb replace mysql everywhere, libreoffice replace open office, and so on.
All the recent pushiness by a certain zealotish Italian debian maintainer, only helps this case. Trying to degrade Debian into a clone of Redhat is uncooth.
This misunderstands why systemd succeeded. It included several design decisions aimed at easing distribution maintainers' burdens, thus making adoption attractive to the same people that would approve this adoption.
If a systemd fork differentiates on not having attestation and getting rid of an unspecified set of "all the silly parts", how would they entice distro maintainers to adopt it? Elaborating what is meant by "silly parts" would be needed to answer that question.
Look at all the kernel patch submissions. 90% are not users but big tech drones. Look at the Linux foundation board. It's the who's who of big tech.
This is why I moved to the BSDs. Linux started as a grassroots project but turned commercial, the BSDs started commercial but are hardly still used as such and are mostly user driven now (yes there's a few exceptions like netflix, netgate, ix etc but nothing on the scale of huawei, Amazon etc)
Like John Deere. Read about how they use that sort of thing
This «Linux have a finger in every pie» attitude is very harmful for industry, IMHO.
You already trust third parties, but there is no reason why that third party can't be the very same entity publishing the distribution. The role corporations play in attestation for the devices you speak of can be displaced by an open source developer, it doesn't need to require a paid certificate, just a trusted one. Furthermore, attestation should be optional at the hardware level, allowing you to build distros that don't use it, however distros by default should use it, as they see fit of course.
I think what people are frustrated with is the heavy-handedness of the approach, the lack of opt-out and the corporate-centric feel of it all. My suggestion would be not to take the systemd approach. There is no reason why attestation related features can't be turned on or off at install time, much like disk encryption. I find it unfortunate that even something like secureboot isn't configurable at install time, with custom certs,distro certs, or certs generated at install time.
Being against a feature that benefits regular users is not good, it is more constructive to talk about what the FOSS way of implementing a feature might be. Just because Google and Apple did it a certain way, it doesn't mean that's the only way of doing it.
I would love to use that technology to do reverse attestation, and require the server that handles my personal data to behave a certain way, like obeying the privacy policy terms of the EULA and not using my data to train LLMs if I so opted out. Something tells me that's not going to happen...
It's also because content companies and banks want other people in suits to trust.
What, this part is only needed for secure boot? I'm not sec... oh. So go back to the UEFI settings, turn secure boot off, problem solved. I usually also turn off SELinux right after install.
So I'm an old greybeard who likes to have full control. Less secure. But at least I get the choice. Hopefully I continue to do so. The notion of not being able to access online banking services or other things that require account login, without running on a "fully attested" system does worry me.
Currently SB is effectively useless because it will at best authenticate your kernel but the initrd and subsequent userspace (including programs that run as root) are unverified and can be replaced by malicious alternatives.
Secure Boot as it stands right now in the Linux world is effectively an annoyance that’s only there as a shortcut to get distros to boot on systems that trust Microsoft’s keys but otherwise offer no actual security.
It however doesn’t have to be this way, and I welcome efforts to make Linux just as secure as proprietary OSes who actually have full code signature verification all the way down to userspace.
sign grub with your own keys (some motherboards let you to do so). don't let random things signed by microsoft to boot (it defeats the whole point)
so you have grub in an efi partition, it passes secure boot, loads, and attempts to unlock a luks partition with the user provided passphrase. if it passed secure boot it should increase confidence that you are typing you password into the legit thing
so anyway, after unlocking luks, it locates the kernel and initrd inside it, and boots
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/GRUB#Encrypted_/boot
the reason I don't do it is.. my laptop is buggy. often when I enable secure boot, something periodically gets corrupted (often when the laptop powers off due to low power) and when it gets up, it doesn't verify anything. slightly insane tech
however, this is still better than, at failure, letting anything run
sophisticated attackers will defeat this, but they can also add a variety of attacks at hardware level
I think you might want to go re-read the last ~6 months of IT news in regards of "secure proprietary OSes".
But you miss a critical part - Secure Boot, as the name implies is for boot, not OS runtime. Linux I suppose considers the part after initrd load, post-boot perhaps?
I think pid-1 hash verification from the kernel is not a huge ask, as part of secure boot, and leave it to the init system to implement or not implement user-space executable/script signature enforcement. I'm sure Mr. Poettering wouldn't mind.
add luks root, then it's not that bad
Code signature verification is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure how it could be achieved. Have distro maintainers sign the code?
Most of the firmwares I've used lately seem to allow adding custom secureboot keys.
* smartphone device integrity checks (SafetyNet / Play Integrity / Apple DeviceCheck)
* HDMI/HDCP
* streaming DRM (Widevine / FairPlay)
* Secure Boot (vendor-keyed deployments)
* printers w/ signed/chipped cartridges (consumables auth)
* proprietary file formats + network effects (office docs, messaging)
However, I agree that the risks to individuals and their freedoms stemming from these technologies outweigh the benefits in most cases.
For another example, IntegriCloud: https://secure.integricloud.com/
I personally don't think this product matters all that much for now. These types of tech is not oppressive by itself, only when it is being demanded by an adversary. The ability of the adversary to demand it is a function of how widespread the capability is, and there aren't going to be enough Linux clients for this to start infringing on the rights of the general public just yet.
A bigger concern is all the efforts aimed at imposing integrity checks on platforms like the Web. That will eventually force users to make a choice between being denied essential services and accepting these demands.
I also think AI would substantially curtail the effect of many of these anti-user efforts. For example a bot can be programmed to automate using a secure phone and controlled from a user-controlled device, cheat in games, etc.
Great example of proving something to your own organization. Mullvad is probably the most trusted VPN provider and they do this! But this is not a power that should be exposed to regular applications, or we end up with a dystopian future of you are not allowed to use your own computer.
I wish this myth would die at this point.
Secure Boot allows you to enroll your own keys. This is part of the spec, and there are no shipped firmwares that prevents you from going through this process.
The banking apps still won't trust them, though.
To add a quote from Lennart himself:
"The OS configuration and state (i.e. /etc/ and /var/) must be encrypted, and authenticated before they are used. The encryption key should be bound to the TPM device; i.e system data should be locked to a security concept belonging to the system, not the user."
Your system will not belong to you anymore. Just as it is with Android.
Microsoft required that users be able to enroll their own keys on x86. On ARM, they used to mandate that users could not enroll their own keys. That they later changed this does not erase the past. Also, I've anecdotally heard claims of buggy implementations that do in fact prevent users from changing secure boot settings.
UEFI secure boot on PCs, yes for the most part. A lot of mobile platforms just never supported this. It's not a myth.
Many motherboards secure boot implimentation violates the supposed standard and does not allow you to invalidate the pre-loaded keys you don't approve of.
Attestation, the thing we're going to be spending the next forever trying to get out of phones, now in your kernel.
this basically will remove or significantly encumber user control over their system, such that any modification will make you loose your "signed" status and ... boom! goodbye accessing the internet without an id
pottering recently works for Microsoft, they want to turn linux into an appliance just like windows, no longer a general purpose os. the transition is still far from over on windows, but look at android and how the google play services dependency/choke-hold is
im sure ill get many down votes, but despite some hyperbole this is the trajectory
The plan is probably to have that as an alternative for the niche uses where that is appropriate.
This majority of this thread seems to have slid on that slippery slope, and jumped directly to the conclusion where the attestation mechanism will be mandatory on all linux machines in the world and you won't be able to run anything without. Which even if it would be a purpose for amutable as a company, it's unfeasible to do when there's such a breadth of distributions and non corpo affiliated developers out there that would need to cooperate for that to happen.
Eventually you will not be able to block ads.
I do agree that these technologies can be abused. But system integrity is also a prerequisite for security; it's not like this is like Digital "Rights" Management, where it's unequivocally a bad thing that only advances evil interests. Like, Widevine should never have been made a thing in Firefox imo.
So I think what's most productive here is to build immutable, signable systems that can preserve user freedom, and then use social and political means to further guarantee those freedoms. For instance a requirement that owning a device means being able to provision your own keys. Bans on certain attestation schemes. Etc. (I empathize with anyone who would be cynical about those particular possibilities though.)
[0] https://0pointer.net/blog/fitting-everything-together.html
But then Linux wouldn't be where it is without the business side paying for the developers. There is no such thing as a free lunch...
Yeah. I'm pretty sure it requires a very specific psychological profile to decide to work on such a user-hostile project while post-fact rationalizing that it's "for good".
All I can say is I'm not surprised that Poettering is involved in such a user-hostile attack on free computing.
P.S: I don't care about the downvotes, you shouldn't either.
P.S: Upvoted you. I don't care about downvotes either.
It sounds like you want to achieve system transparency, but I don't see any clear mention of reproducible builds or transparency logs anywhere.
I have followed systemd's efforts into Secure Boot and TPM use with great interest. It has become increasingly clear that you are heading in a very similar direction to these projects:
- Hal Finney's transparent server
- Keylime
- System Transparency
- Project Oak
- Apple Private Cloud Compute
- Moxie's Confer.to
I still remember Jason introducing me to Lennart at FOSDEM in 2020, and we had a short conversation about System Transparency.
I'd love to meet up at FOSDEM. Email me at fredrik@mullvad.net.
Edit: Here we are six years later, and I'm pretty sure we'll eventually replace a lot of things we built with things that the systemd community has now built. On a related note, I think you should consider using Sigsum as your transparency log. :)
Edit2: For anyone interested, here's a recent lightning talk I did that explains the concept that all project above are striving towards, and likely Amutable as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo0gxBWwwQE
Our entire team will be at FOSDEM, and we'd be thrilled to meet more of the Mullvad team. Protecting systems like yours is core to us. We want to understand how we put the right roots of trust and observability into your hands.
Edit: I've reached out privately by email for next steps, as you requested.
As I mentioned above, we've followed systemd's development in recent years with great interest, as well as that of some other projects. When I started(*) the System Transparency project it was very much a research project.
Today, almost seven years later, I think there's a great opportunity for us to reduce our maintenance burden by re-architecting on top of systemd, and some other things. That way we can focus on other things. There's still a lot of work to do on standardizing transparency building blocks, the witness ecosystem(**), and building an authentication mechanism for system transparency that weaves it all together.
I'm more than happy to share my notes with you. Best case you build exactly what we want. Then we don't have to do it. :)
I have this fond memory of that Notary in Germany who did a remote attestation of me being with him in the same room, voting on a shareholder resolution.
While I was currently traveling on the other side of the planet.
This great concept that totally will not blow up the planet has been proudly brought to you by Ze Germans.
No matter what your intentions are: It WILL be abused and it WILL blow up. Stop this and do something useful.
[While systemd had been a nightmare for years, these days its actually pretty good, especially if you disable the "oh, and it can ALSO create perfect eggs benedict and make you a virgin again while booting up the system!" part of it. So, no bad feelings here. Also, I am German. Also: Insert list of history books here.]
The website itself is rather vague in its stated goals and mechanisms.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45743756
https://arstechnica.com/security/2025/09/intel-and-amd-trust...
You'll be free to run your own Linux, but don't expect it to work outside of niche uses.
A concrete example of that is electronic ballots, which is a topic I often bump heads with the rest of HN about, where a hardware identity token (an electronic ID provided by the state) can be used to participate in official ballots, while both the citizen and the state can have some assurance that there was nothing interceding between them in a malicious way.
Does that make sense?
In the great scheme of things, this period where systemd was intentionally designed and developed and funded to hurt your autonomy but seemed temporarily innocuous will be a rounding error.
It's the people behind this project who scare me.
One good news is that maybe LP will get less involved in systemd.
See Android; or, where you no longer own your device, and if the company decides, you no longer own your data or access to it.
Probably obvious from the surnames but this is the first time I've seen a EU company pop up on Hacker News that could be mistaken for a Californian company. Nice to see that ambition.
I understand systemd is controversial, that can be debated endlessly but the executive team and engineering team look very competitive. Will be interesting to see where this goes.
I am glad to see these efforts are now under an independent firm rather than being directed by Microsoft.
What is the ownership structure like? Where/who have you received funding from, and what is the plan for ongoing monetization of your work?
Would you ever sell the company to Microsoft, Google, or Amazon?
Thanks.
No matter what the founders say, the answer to this question is always yes.
I don't think you will ever get a response to that
I'm not asking for a client list, to be clear.
https://fosdem.org/2026/schedule/speaker/lennart_poettering/
What does this mean? Why would anyone want this? Can you explain this to me like I'm five years old?
That does not follow. That would only very specifically happen when all of these are true:
1. Secure Boot cannot be disabled
2. You cannot provision your own Secure Boot keys
3. Your desired operating system is not signed by the computer's trusted Secure Boot keys
"Starting in a verified state and stay[ing] trusted over time" sounds more like using measured boot. Which is basically its own thing and most certainly does not preclude booting whatever OS you choose.
Although if your comment was meant in a cynical way rather than approaching things technically, than I don't think my reply helps much.
Remote attestation requires a great deal of trust, and I simply don't have it when it comes to this leadership team.
One of the most grating pain points of the early versions of systemd was a general lack of humility, some would say rank arrogance, displayed by the project lead and his orbiters. Today systemd is in a state of "not great, not terrible" but it was (and in some circles still is) notorious for breaking peoples' linux installs, their workflows, and generally just causing a lot of headaches. The systemd project leads responded mostly with Apple-style "you're holding it wrong" sneers.
It's not immediately clear to me what exactly Amutable will be implementing, but it smells a lot like some sort of DRM, and my immediate reaction is that this is something that Big Tech wants but that users don't.
My question is this: Has Lennart's attitude changed, or can linux users expect more of the same paternalism as some new technology is pushed on us whether we like it or not?
It improves on about every level compared to what came before. And no, nothing is perfect and you sometimes have to troubleshoot it.
Of course it will not be answered. And that's exactly an answer to your question.
systemd kept him away from pulseaudio and whoever is/was maintaining that after him was doing a good job of fixing it.
Who is this for / what problem does it solve?
I guess security? Or maybe reproducability?
See: “it’s just an init system”where it’s now also a resolver, log system, etc.
I can buy good intentions, but this opens up too much possibility for not-so-good-intended consequences. Deliberate or emergent.
it's a buggy-as-hell resolver, buggy-as-hell log system, buggy-as-hell ntp client, buggy-as-hell network manager, ...
Atomicity means you can track every change, and every change is so small that it affects only one thing and can be traced, replayed or rolled back. Like it's going from A to B and being able to return back to A (or going to B again) in a determinate manner.
See the "features" list from systemd 257/258 [0].
>We are building cryptographically verifiable integrity into Linux systems
I wonder what that means ? It could be a good thing, but I tend to think it could be a privacy nightmare depending on who controls the keys.
You. The money quote about the current state of Linux security:
> In fact, right now, your data is probably more secure if stored on current ChromeOS, Android, Windows or MacOS devices, than it is on typical Linux distributions.
Say what you want about systemd the project but they're the only ones moving foundational Linux security forward, no one else even has the ambition to try. The hardening tools they've brought to Linux are so far ahead of everything else it's not even funny.
As said above, it's about who controls the keys. It's either building your own castle or having to live with the Ultimate TiVo.
We'll see.
Look, I hate systemd just as much as the next guy - but how are you getting "DRM" out of this?
For individuals, IMO the risk mostly come from software they want to run (install script or supply chain attack). So if the end user is in control of what gets signed, I don't see much benefit. Unless you force users to use an app store...
Whatever it is, I hope it doesn't go the usual path of a minimal support, optional support and then being virtually mandatory by means of tight coupling with other subsystems.
So we try to make every new feature that might be disruptive optional in systemd and opt-in. Of course we don't always succeed and there will always be differences in opinion.
Also, we're a team of people that started in open source and have done open source for most of our careers. We definitely don't intend to change that at all. Keeping systemd a healthy project will certainly always stay important for me.
Thanks for the answer. Let me ask you something close with a more blunt angle:
Considering most of the tech is already present and shipping in the current systemd, what prevents our systems to become a immutable monolith like macOS or current Android with the flick of a switch?
Or a more grave scenario: What prevents Microsoft from mandating removal of enrollment permissions for user keychains and Secure Boot toggle, hence every Linux distribution has to go through Microsoft's blessing to be bootable?
If you were not a systemd maintainer and have started this project/company independently targeting systemd, you would have to go through the same process as everyone and I would have expected the systemd maintainers to, look at it objectively and review with healthy skepticism before accepting it. But we cannot rely on that basic checks and balances anymore and that's the most worrying part.
> that might be disruptive optional in systemd
> we don't always succeed and there will always be differences in opinion.
You (including other maintainers) are still the final arbitrator of what's disruptive. The differences of opinion in the past have mostly been settled as "deal with it" and that's the basis of current skepticism.
What problem does this solve for Linux or people who use Linux? Why is this different from me simply enabling encryption on the drive?
I find it hard to believe. Like, at all. Especially given that the general posture of your project leader is the exact opposite of that.
> systemd a healthy project
I can see that we share the same view that there are indeed differences in opinion.
Can you imaging the creator of systemd not to?
Device attestation fails? No streaming video or audio for you (you obvious pirate!).
Device attestation fails? No online gaming for you (you obvious cheater!).
Device attestation fails? No banking for you (you obvious fraudster!).
Device attestation fails? No internet access for you (you obvious dissident!).
Sure, there are some good uses of this, and those good uses will happen, but this sort of tech will be overwhelmingly used for bad.
2. Are you looking for pilot customers?
Are these some problems you've personally been dealing with?
Then we discovered snapshot.debian.org wasn't feeling well, so that was another (important) detour.
Part of me wish we had focused more on getting System Transparency in its entirety in production at Mullvad. On the other hand I certainly don't regret us creating Tillitis TKey, Sigsum, taking care of Debian Snapshot service, and several other things.
Now, six years later, systemd and other projects have gotten a long way to building several of the things we need for ST. It doesn't make sense to do double work, so I want to seize the moment and make sure we coordinate.
You're free to root your phone. You're free to run whatever you want. You're just not entitled to have third parties trust that device with their systems and money. Same as you're free to decline STD testing - you just don't get to then demand unprotected sex from partners who require it.
But its a bank, right? Its my money.
---
Making secure boot 100 times simpler would be a deffo plus.
Having said that, should this company not be successful, Mr Zbyszek Jędrzejewski-Szmek has potentially a glowing career as an artists' model. Think Rembrandt sketches.
I look forward to something like ChromeOS that you can just install on any old refurbished laptop. But I think the money is in servers.
I wish you great success
- it looks like they want to build a ChromeOS without Google.
I can relate to people being rather hostile to the idea of boot verification, because this is a process that is really low level and also something that we as computer experts rarely interact with more deeply. The most challenging part of installing a Linux system is always installing the boot loader, potentially setting up an UEFI partition. These are things that I don't do everyday and that I don't have deep knowledge in. And if things go wrong, then it is extra hard to fix things. Secure boot makes it even harder to understand what is going on. There is a general lack of knowledge of what is happening behind the scenes and it is really hard to learn about it. I feel that the people behind this project should really keep XKCD 2501 in mind when talking to their fellow computer experts.
Yeah it could be. Could. But it also could be used for limiting freedoms with general purpose computing. Guess what is it going to be?
> hostile to the idea of boot verification, because this is a process that is really low level
Not because of that.
Because it's only me who gets to decide what runs on my computer, not someone else. I don't need LP's permission to run binaries.
I mean, in theory, the idea is great. But it WILL be misused by greedy fucks.
So it's going to be someone disabling this for end users.
If there’s a path to profitability, great for them, and for me too; because it means it won’t be available at no charge.
These kind of technologies are forced on users.
Why not adopt seL4 like everybody else who is not outright delusional[0][1]?
I can see like a 100 ways this can make computing worse for 99% people and like 1-2 scenarios where it might actually be useful.
Like if the politicians pushing for chat control/on device scanning of data come knocking again and actually go through (they can try infinitely) tech like this will really be "useful". Oops your device cannot produce a valid attestation, no internet for you.
A reliably attestable system has to nail the entire boot chain: BIOS/firmware, bootloader, kernel/initramfs pairs, the `init` process, and the system configuration. Flip a single bit anywhere along the process, and your equipment is now a brick.
Getting all of this right requires deep system knowledge, plus a lot of hair-pulling adjustment, assuming if you still have hair left.
I think this part of Linux has been underrated. TPM is a powerful platform that is universally available, and Linux is the perfect OS to fully utilize it. The need for trust in digital realm will only increase. Who knows, it may even integrate with cryptocurrency or even social platforms. I really wish them a good luck.
"Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither."
avoiding backdoors as a private person you always can only solve with having the hardware at your place, because hardware ALWAYS can have backdoors, because hardware vendors do not fix their shit.
From my point of view it ONLY gives control and possibilities to large organizations like governments and companies. which in turn use it to control citizens
So, some of the people doing "typical HN rage-posting about DRM" are also absolutely right.
The capabilities locking down macOS and iOS and related hardware also can be used for good, but they are not used for that.
What do you mean by this?
Is the concern that systemd is suddenly going to require that users enable some kind of attestation functionality? That making attestation possible or easier is going to cause third parties to start requiring it for client machines running Linux? This doesn't even really seem to be a goal; there's not really money to be made there.
As far as I can tell the sales pitch here is literally "we make it so you can assure the machines running in your datacenter are doing what they say they are," which seems pretty nice to me, and the perversions of this to erode user rights are either just as likely as they ever were or incredibly strange edge cases.
There is: corporate will fund this project and enforce its usage for their users not for the sake of the users and not for the sake of doing any good.
What it will be used for is to bring you a walled garden into Linux and then slowly incentivize all software vendors to only support that variety of Linux.
LP has a vast, vast experience in locking down users' freedom and locking down Linux.
I'd really love to see this scenario actually explained. The only place I could really see client-side desktop Linux remote attestation gaining any foothold is to satisfy anti-cheat for gaming, which might actually be a win in many ways.
> What it will be used for is to bring you a walled garden into Linux and then slowly incentivize all software vendors to only support that variety of Linux.
What walled garden? Where is the wall? Who owns the garden? What is the actual concrete scenario here?
> LP has a vast, vast experience in locking down users' freedom and locking down Linux.
What? You can still use all of the Linuxes you used to use? systemd is open source, open-application, and generally useful?
Like, I guess I could twist my brain into a vision where each Ubuntu release becomes an immutable rootfs.img and everyone installs overlays over the top of that, and maybe there's a way to attest that you left the integrity protection on, but I don't really see where this goes past that. There's no incentive to keep you from turning the integrity protection off (and no means to do so on PC hardware), and the issues in Android-land with "typical" vendors wanting attestation to interact with you are going to have to come to MacOS and Windows years before they'll look at Linux.
and each time the doors have been blasted wide off by huge security vulnerabilities
the attack surface is simply too large when people can execute their own code nearby
You will get 10000 zero days before you get a single direct attack at hardware
1. How will the company make money? (You have probably been asked that a million times :).)
2. Similar to the sibling: what are the first bits that you are going to work on.
At any rate, super cool and very nice that you are based in EU/Germany/Berlin!
2. Given the team, it should be quite obvious there will be a Linux-based OS involved.
Our aims are global but we certainly look forward to playing an important role in the European tech landscape.
I take it that you are not at this stage able to provide details of the nature of the path to revenue. On what kind of timescale do you envisage being able to disclose your revenue stream/subscribers/investors?
I have no more information about your product that you have shared but I'm already scared and extremely pessimistic given the team and the ambition.
A "robust path to revenue" plus a Linux-based OS and a strong emphasis on EU / German positioning immediately triggers some concern. We've seen this pattern before: wrap a commercially motivated control layer in the language of sovereignty, security, or European tech independence, and hope that policymakers, enterprises, and users don't look too closely at the tradeoffs.
Europe absolutely needs stronger participation in foundational tech, but that shouldn't mean recreating the same centralized trust and control models that already failed elsewhere, just with an EU flag on top. 'European sovereignty' is not inherently better if it still results in third-party gatekeepers deciding what hardware, kernels, or systems are "trusted."
Given Europe's history with regulation-heavy, vendor-driven solutions, it's fair to ask:
Who ultimately controls the trust roots?
Who decides policy when commercial or political pressure appears?
What happens when user interests diverge from business or state interests?
Linux succeeded precisely because it avoided these dynamics. Attestation mechanisms that are tightly coupled to revenue models and geopolitical branding risk undermining that success, regardless of whether the company is based in Silicon Valley or Berlin.
Hopefully this is genuinely about user-verifiable security and not another marketing-driven attempt to position control as sovereignty. Healthy skepticism seems warranted until the governance and trust model are made very explicit.
Imagine you're using a program hosted on some cloud service S. You send packets over the network; gears churn; you get some results back. What are the problems with such a service? You have no idea what S is doing with your data. You incur latency, transmission time, and complexity costs using S remotely. You pay, one way or another, for the infrastructure running S. You can't use S offline.
Now imagine instead of S running on somebody else's computer over a network, you run S on your computer instead. Now, you can interact with S with zero latency, don't have to pay for S's infrastructure, and you can supervise S's interaction with the outside world.
But why would the author of S agree to let you run it? S might contain secrets. S might enforce business rules S's author is afraid you'll break. Ordinarily, S's authors wouldn't consider shipping you S instead of S's outputs.
However --- if S's author could run S on your computer in such a way that he could prove you haven't tampered with S or haven't observed its secrets, he can let you run S on your computer without giving up control over S. Attestation, secure enclaves, and other technologies create ways to distribute software that otherwise wouldn't exist. How many things are in the cloud solely to enforce access control? What if they didn't have to be?
Sure, in this deployment model, just like in the cloud world, you wouldn't be able to run a custom S: but so what? You don't get to run your custom S either way, and this way, relative to cloud deployment, you get better performance and even a little bit more control.
Also, the same thing works in reverse. You get to run your code remotely in a such a way that you can trust its remote execution just as much as you can trust that code executing on your own machine. There are tons of applications for this capability that we're not even imagining because, since the dawn of time, we've equated locality with trust and can now, in principle, decouple the two.
Yes, bad actors can use attestation technology to do all sorts of user-hostile things. You can wield any sufficiently useful tool in a harmful way: it's the utility itself that creates the potential for harm. This potential shouldn't prevent our inventing new kinds of tool.
But it won't be used like that. It will be used to take user freedoms out.
> But why would the author of S agree to let you run it? S might contain secrets. S might enforce business rules S's author is afraid you'll break. Ordinarily, S's authors wouldn't consider shipping you S instead of S's outputs.
That use case you're describing is already there and is currently being done with DRM, either in browser or in app itself.
You are right in the "it will make easier for app user to do it", and in theory it is still better option in video games than kernel anti-cheat. But it is still limiting user freedoms.
> Yes, bad actors can use attestation technology to do all sorts of user-hostile things. You can wield any sufficiently useful tool in a harmful way: it's the utility itself that creates the potential for harm. This potential shouldn't prevent our inventing new kinds of tool.
Majority of the uses will be user-hostile things. Because those are only cases where someone will decide to fund it.
To be honest, mainly companies need that. personal users do not need that. And additionally companies are NOT restrained by governments not to exploit customers as much as possible.
So... i also see it as enslaving users. And tell me, for many private persons, where does this actually give them for PRIVATE persons, NOT companies a net benefit?
> This potential shouldn't prevent our inventing new kinds of tool.
Why do i see someone who wants to build an atomic bomb for shit and giggles using this argument, too? As hyperbole as my argument is, the argument given is not good here, as well.
The immutable linux people build tools, without building good tools which actually make it easier for private people at home to adapt a immutable linux to THEIR liking.
"Trust us" is never a good idea with profit seeking founders. Especially ones who come from a culture that generally hates the hacker spirit and general computing.
You basically wrote a whole narrative of things that could be. But the team is not even willing to make promises as big as yours. Their answers were essentially just "trust us we're cool guys" and "don't worry, money will work out" wrapped in average PR speak.
Not just can. They will use it.
Why should we trust microsofties to produce something secure and non-backdoored?
And, lastly, why should Linux's security be tied to a private company? Oooh, but it's of course not about security: it's about things like DRM.
I hope Linus doesn't get blinded here: systemd managed to get PID 1 on many distros but they thankfully didn't manage, yet, to control the kernel. I hope this project ain't the final straw to finally meddle into the kernel.
Currently I'm doing:
Proxmox / systemd-less VMs / containers
So my plan is:
FreeBSD / bhyve hypervisor / systemd-less Linux VMs / containers
This project is an attack on general-purpose computing.
Community ran servers with community administration who actually cared about showing up and removing bad actors and cheaters.
Plenty of communities are still demonstrating this exact fact today.
Companies could 100% recreate this solution with fully hosted servers, with an actually staffed moderation department, but that slightly reduces profit margins so fuck you. Keep in mind community servers ran on donations most of the time. That's the level of profit they would lose.
Companies completely removed community servers as an option instead, because allowing you to run your own servers means you could possibly play the game with skins you haven't paid for!!! Oh no!!! Getting enjoyment without paying for it!!!
All software attempts at anti-cheat are impossible. Even fully attested consoles have had cheats and other ways of getting an advantage that you shouldn't have.
Cheating isn't defined by software. Cheating is a social problem that can only be solved socially. The status quo 20 years ago was better.
In that world, authoring technology that enables this even more is either completely mad or evil. To me Linux is not a technological object, it is also a political statement. It is about choice, personal freedom, acceptance of risk. If you build software that actively intends to take this away from me to put it into the hands of economic interests and political actors then you deserve all the hate you can get.
I use Linux since the Slackware day. Poettering is the worse thing that happened to the Linux ecosystem and, of course, he went on to work for Microsoft. Just to add a huge insult to the already painful injury.
This is not about security for the users. It's about control.
At least many in this thread are criticizing the project.
And, once again of course, it's from a private company.
Full of ex-Microsofties.
I don't know why anyone interested in hacking would cheer for this. But then maybe HN should be renamed "CN" (Corporate News) or "MN" (Microsoft News).
agreed, and now he's planning on controlling what remains of your machine cryptographically!
Same here, Linux since about 1995. Same opinion.
> And, once again of course, it's from a private company. Full of ex-Microsofties.
And funded. And confident they will sell the product well.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18321884
- Linux is better now
- Nothing bad