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Comment by wolvoleo | Hacker News Reader

Cool, in Holland snack bars are not homely at all. Some have just little cubbyholes in the wall where you insert a coin and take a croquette from behind a little window (we like buying stuff from behind windows I guess, lol).

And if there is staff it's usually a big grumpy guy. And the food is really greasy. It's not a place you go for fun. It's more for quick fix food (though some of it is delicious though bad for you)

I didn't like Japan much personally because it's so conservative and traditional (like it says there in the article LGBTQ+ is still an issue there, tattoos are frowned upon, life is pretty formal etc). So I don't feel at home there. And as such I've never really explored it. It's a nice country with nice people but I just don't fit in which was awkward for me. I'm more at home at a burning man kinda setting :)

But this sounds pretty cool. If I do have to go there again some day I'll look one of these places up.

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I think LGBTQ acceptance in Japan is significantly better than any Western country. The "issue", as it manifests, is of a fundamentally different nature. Not everyone is open to it, of course, and legal marriage is not an option[1]. But while there are many people who are somewhat bigoted, Japan is not an Abrahamic country. Unlike any Christian or Islamic country, the number of people who hate LGBTQ individuals, want them all to go to Hell, and make their entire political identity based around hurting them, or actually committing violence against them, is significantly smaller.

[1] Notably, the lack of legalised marriage is not because the population is too conservative. Rather, it is because the US forced a constitution on Japan which enshrines heterosexual marriage as constitutional law, and changing the constitution is significantly more difficult than changing a normal law. There is broad popular support for same-sex marriage, and it would almost certainly be legal if not for this fact.

I travelled there with my same sex partner. We had zero issues in a single bed hotel room, and there were plenty of gay bars. We did find the cover charge difference for gays vs straights amusing (where gay entry was cheaper).

I’m sure there are social issues, a local bartender told us they had linguistic limitations that acted as sort of barriers to expression, and I’m sure there are issues for gay youth, but as a whole it felt relatively similar to most western countries from a safety/friendliness perspective. Gay marriage is a slow turnaround, and given Japanese culture is socially conservative I imagine that might take a while, but marriage and social acceptance are not necessarily tightly coupled.

I can't find the article, but I read an article about the experience of an LGBTQ Californian that moved to Tokyo found it more friendly than US (including progressive state).

The point was that in US LGBTQ is politicized. If you tell people about it, you have to either defend it (vs conservatives) or explain it (vs progressives, but with encouragement). Both got very exhausting fast for the person, even the well intentioned ones.

In Japan, the general reaction from coworkers to landlords was へー, そうなんだ。 (oh ok, cool.) no follow up questions or prodding.

Vast majority don't care enough about your private sexual preferences. (goodness sake people it's the country of Hentai, people there really don't fucking care about your private presences) They do, however, care when you politicize it (making it their issue)

The trend is slow but good looking for LGBTQ right in Japan. It won't move forward like people expect in the west. I'd guess one or two more generations. The only risk factor I see is the west. The polarization and politization of the issue, seen from Japan, is making the conservative wings more cautious about the topic.

Either case, Shinjuku 2chome will be a very welcoming place. My gay friend from Sweden love that place more than any supposed to be gay friendly place in Europe

> In Japan, the general reaction from coworkers to landlords was へー, そうなんだ。 (oh ok, cool.) no follow up questions or prodding.

That matches my experience pretty well, including the expats living here.

Coming out to my friends was kinda relieving since we all hang out anyways, and _nothing's changed_.

I'm confused where the assertion about the constitution is coming from. There have been at least 5 years of lower court decisions in Japan stating that lack of same sex marriage is unconstitutional. See the below article noting that the current ban on same sex marriage is due to civil law, not the constitution.

https://apnews.com/article/japan-lgbtq-samesex-marriage-ruli...

I mean, lower courts don't mean a lot in the grand scheme of things, for better or worse. It seems clear that the lower courts are trying to legislate from the bench in service of a moral good. The constitution is extremely unambiguous about this:

  第二十四条

  婚姻は、両性の合意のみに基いて成立し、夫婦が同等の権利を有することを基本として、相互の協力により、維持されなければならない。

With "両性" unambiguously meaning "both sexes" and "夫婦" unambiguously meaning "husband and wife".

You could play with that though since "both sexes" could be perceived as "both individuals that have a sex" and "husband and wife" don't have any technical meaning.

I'm not a lawyer, but they're working on it.

There is value in maintaining the fiction that words mean things.

It's already a play on 両姓(both surnames), which could have meant that parents could constitutionally block marriages. Not that it matters, though. People are frankly more concerned about tax frauds and crime record laundering abusing same-sex marriages than imagined traditional family values.

Thanks, I did not go to the source document here so your quote and translation is appreciated!

While I’m not part of that community myself, I’ve lived in Japan and have known LGBTQ people who are. In the big metros at least, as long as you’re putting forth even a little effort to follow etiquette and you’re not causing problems for others or making a nuisance of yourself, nobody pays you any mind regardless of orientation. Everybody is too busy with their own lives to go poking their noses into the lives of others without due cause.

This is somewhat true of major US metros, but the effect is particularly strong in Tokyo, etc. It’s one of the things I love about living there… being just a number is liberating, even as someone quite boring and mild-mannered.

Yeah as a neurodivergent person I'm super bad with etiquette :) I could never attend a formal dinner in a western country either. So these things are super stressful and my colleague made things much worse.

> as long as you’re putting forth even a little effort to follow etiquette and you’re not causing problems for others or making a nuisance of yourself, nobody pays you any mind regardless of orientation

A bit like Glasgow then.

Ah I see. The thing is, I was on a work trip and the colleague I was with had been there a lot and he was constantly lecturing me about what not to do, what to wear, cover up tattoos etc. And what not to mention which was the LGBTQ topics in particular.

This kinda made me feel awkward because I couldn't be myself so I basically dissociated and just went through the motions while I was there. And didn't explore much. It was annoying because we weren't even there as businessmen but technical experts.

I think my colleague was overdoing the whole fitting in thing anyway but I was really on edge. I'm sure my impression was tainted by it now that I think of it.

JP Resident, and LGBT.

The vast majority of the "rules" apply only in extreme business situations, generally in the oldest Japanese companies.

Outside of that, the Japanese are extremely forgiving of those that are visiting not following _every single custom_. There's an understanding that so long as you're not disrupting the peace (being super loud, making a mess, etc) then a level of tolerance is applied.

LGBT is much of the same way where, your personal feelings and decisions don't impact everyone else, and thus it's not their business to decide what you can/can't do.

Once you're living here, there's some expectation that you start learning and participating in customs and traditions, but even that's extremely flexible.

Thanks! The people were were visiting weren't actually very traditional. I had a feeling they were a lot more accepting than I was told. And I'm not a loud person ever.

Now I wish I could go back some time to really experience it :)

> Notably, the lack of legalised marriage is not because the population is too conservative. Rather, it is because the US forced a constitution on Japan which enshrines heterosexual marriage as constitutional law, and changing the constitution is significantly more difficult than changing a normal law.

Beyond the fact that they could easily get around this with civil unions, this feels like a massive misrepresentation of the status quo inside the LDP politicians that ultimately get to decide whether progress is made on this.

The current prime minister, in her previous attempt to campaign to be the head of the party (back in ... 2022 I think?), declared her opposition to married couples opting out of sharing a last name[0]. In the 21st century, strong opposition to the idea that somebody might want to keep their own family name after marriage. Something so small and unimportant. Still very far away from civil unions for non-hetero couples.

The Japanese ruling class is so far away from acceptance of anything beyond a very specific notion of married couples, even if the general population thinks differently. These things can change quickly but just in terms of policy delta between Japan and most other members of the OECD the gap is quit huge. Legal rights for one's spouse starts is important, and right now there's really nothing.

(There are some logistical things around the family register that mean that such a change would require some changes to that format. This is not a good enough reason to prevent this!)

[0]: In Japan if two Japanese people get married then they have to unify on their last name. In practice this usually means the woman throwing away their last name. In a funny twist of fate you actually have more flexibiltiy in an international marriage. If a Japanese person marries a foreigner they _don't_ have to do this (and can even go with a hyphenated last name!).

While there is no national civil union law, and it would of course be great if there were, enough prefectures and municipalities have implemented civil unions such that >90% of people live in areas covered by them, so the legal status quo isn't horrendous.

> Something so small and unimportant. Still very far away from civil unions for non-hetero couples.

Your framing of this issue is a bit misleading. You suppose that this name change issue is a prerequisite step for support for civil unions because in your perception it is more trivial. But actually, support for same-sex marriage is more popular than support for different surnames in marriage. Although even then, a supermajority also support different surnames, and even a majority of LDP supporters support both too.

Do the locality-based civil unions actually provide necessary rights for spouses when it comes to things like property rights and the like? Maybe it does.

You’re right to point out public support (I didn’t realize the name thing had less support than same-sex marriage!)

I mainly wanted to highlight that the politicians are not there yet (or rather the ones that end up making the decision, even if supporters and the rank and file support it). But maybe we’ll get same-sex marriage before the name thing!

I could totally be misreading what the state of things on the ground is.

The municipal/prefectural civil unions aren't fully legally equivalent to marriage unfortunately, they do offer tangible benefits but there is still room to improve. It's not nothing, at least.

One thing I would like to note is that Takaichi doesn't necessarily get to make the decision. Japan does not have a presidential system and the PM does not have veto power. As PM she does obviously hold significant influence in the party, but the LDP is a broad tent with multiple factions, and those factions could potentially pressure her given the LDP is losing ground and opposition to same-sex rights is unpopular even with the party's supporters. Due to the constitutional law issue, I'm not optimistic about same-sex marriage in the near-term, but I do think things are trending in the correct direction, that it's likely that more legal rights will continue to be enshrined in the short-term even if full marriage recognition isn't, and that Western media creating a panic about Takaichi and Japan's supposed trend towards ultraconservatism is more oriented towards garnering engagement than accurate reporting.

> I think LGBTQ acceptance in Japan is significantly better than any Western country.

Sorry, but I don't see your reasoning support this at all. The relative lack of Abrahamic religion would make an impact for sure, but Japan is more socially conservative by most relevant metrics. How does this one factor overcome that?

I don't particularly agree with claims that Japan is more socially conservative by most metrics, because they are made by Westerners who frame conservatism relative entirely to their own worldview, a worldview which is not particularly informed about the reality of Japan given that Western media constantly reports falsehoods for clicks. But that's not really here nor there.

The subject matter is LGBTQ acceptance specifically. The point about Abrahamic religion is that it creates a culture of extremely open and aggressive hostility towards LGBTQ people. Hatred becomes part of people's foundational beliefs because they believe that is what God demands of them, and they cannot be reasoned with to reach a mutual understanding. While you could cherrypick "relevant metrics" like specific legal rights to rate Western countries as "more progressive", the actual populations are less accepting, in other words your social rights are lesser and you are more likely to face severe discrimination and violence. Those legal rights are also in an extremely fragile state because there are conservative movements to strip those rights. In Japan, indifference is far more common than hatred, and political movements are not polarized around things like "wokeness" or "social justice". Takaichi, widely reported in Western media as ushering in a new era of Japanese hard-right conservatism, has a pretty moderate stance that is analogous to Obama circa 2008; she does not support same-sex marriage, but is not actively antagonistic or hateful towards LGBTQ people.

I would sum it up as this: LGBTQ life in Japan is peaceful. Legal rights could stand to be improved, but there is no fight to constantly justify your own existence, and you are allowed to live without facing significant social prejudice. Most people are accepting, and those that aren't mostly just don't care. There are large supportive communities and extensive cultural representation in media, too. I, personally, would never trade this status quo for that of the US or UK in a million years.

Also like, pronouns in Chinese script, which Japanese language adopted as the script and a bulk source of vocabulary, are default ungendered. This significantly reduce the pressure that keeps gender identification a persistent checklist item in every contexts.

> tattoos are frowned upon

My understanding is that this isn't about tattoos per se, but that historically only yakuza would have them. So it's more about not wanting to deal with criminals than not liking tattoos in and of themselves.

That is my understanding as well. And, honestly, even if it wasn't a matter of criminals necessarily (often tattoos were associated with ex-military), until relatively recently, tattoos were a pretty clear class differentiator in the US as well.

The intention of no-tattoos policy is to be able to decline services without mentioning yakuza as a class, so to avoid discrimination lawsuits. But part time bathhouse shift managers might not be aware of that, and/or know that rules need to be enforced equally on all customers to be not outright discriminatory, and so mileages vary.

Imo, the article is exaggerating quite a bit, and written from a perspective of a tourist, which is fair. Nowadays these bars aren’t hidden or try to be out of sight. Like there’s a whole google maps category just for these type of establishments.

But in general, you’d expect what was outlined in the post. From my friends and etc., food might range from pretty bad to average. Might get charged service fee if you’re not hyperlocal to the bar. Also atmosphere, once again, depends. City, neighbourhood, sleeziness level and etc.

About the gay stuff… Honestly it’s more of a “i don’t care just don’t show it off” attitude, rather than “no gays allowed”. But the “don’t show it off” part applies to straight people as well. Nobody is gonna do or say anything, but an auntie might shake their heads as they pass by.

Tattoos are a bit different. If you’re white, nobody will care unless they’re very visible (face/neck). You’ll be barred from some establishments (e.g. onsens/gyms), but if it’s coverable with the covers then it’s fine. Mostly historical reasons, and people’s aversion from accidentally hanging out with the “troublesome crowd” as one would say.

It’s worth pointing out that there are certainly establishments where tourists aren’t welcome. Ironically I’ve had some gay friends walked from a local only gay bar to the tourists welcome gay bar across the street :-)

Oh definitely. I mean, my neighbourhood has a bar that doesn’t even allow people who don’t live in the area as well. I guess, the gay bars not allowing foreigners is for a different reason, but soft discrimination is very ubiquitous. On the bright side, there are hundreds of thousands of other establishments that will happily take your money.

To be clear, I take zero issue with the bar exclusion and my friends are in the same position. The cultural differences are so substantial that it’s an understandable desire for locals not wanting to adapt theirs to suit ours.

Not a local, but in my experience this is due to tourists not being able to speak Japanese, which makes the people working in a place very uncomfortable ("will this person follow the rules? How can I do proper service if I can't communicate?"). A 大丈夫、少し日本語をしゃべります (it's ok, I speak a bit of japanese) has been enough to open the doors for me.

That being said, they do have issues with some nationalities. For example, the average American is way too loud for the average japanese place. Even if they think they are being polite, they just talk too loud and too much for japanese sensibilities.

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