The world of Japanese snack bars
bbc.com
bbc.com
Another snac bar that he brought me to had an interesting story. The snac bar was in an apartment complex (due to Japan's funny zoning laws) at the nightlife district, could maybe fit 5-6 max. The place was filled with blues and jazz LPs! When we went there, there was only one man sitting, eating omelets and a talking to the owner.
Turns out the owner used to be a salary man in Tokyo, but got sick of the corporate banking life, took his savings, moved back to Kyoto to open his small bar. He loved music, particularly blues and jazz, so just bought an apartment and rebuilt it on his own as this jazz n blues bar. He barely made any money, lower than minimum wage. but he said to him it was a life style, and he enjoyed it and wouldn't have it any other way.
The guy eating the omelet, turned out to be a pretty famous professor at Kyoto University. He had this deal with the owner that he would make him lunch boxes and dinner for the professor (omelet wasn't on the bars menu), and he hanged around there every night. They've had that setting going for 8 years and the owner laughed that he was essentially the professors wife, and a bad influence for his workaholics habit!
There's a charm to those places, but they're best observed from the distance. The group of exchange student I was part of made a local bar close to the uni our hang out, because they had cheap beer and amazing food. But one day the owner politely told us they didn't want us to come back. That 10+ tall loud white people was ruining the third place this bar represented to the locals.
Funny thing many of the students protested "I don't understand. We're customers. We're paying and bringing many customers!" they tried to convince the students "to you it's consumption but to us it's a community place". Few of the students would accept that answer, but obliged. Oddly only the French did understand the sentiment. (and the Swiss were the most entitled)
French culture is a rare culture where shop owners won't be afraid to tell off/talk back at customers that don't show a basic level of politeness. You, as a customer, are in the shopkeeper's "home", so to speak, and you should behave accordingly. Someone who doesn't use the customary "bonjour/merci/au revoir" is likely to be met with some response like "tout d'abord, bonjour" ("first of all, hello"), or "et la politesse, alors?" ("what about politeness?").
(of course, people from older generations would be likely to say that these things are going away)
I'm French/American, raised across both countries, and even as a kid it shocked me that a customer in the US could get away with "I'll have a coke" as their only utterance to a waiter - no hello, please, thank you.
I suspect this is why the French have a reputation for rudeness. It's easy to understand why tourists from cultures where "the customer is king" would be shocked when they get told off for being loud/rude/inconsiderate.
(I've lived in Japan for a few years now, and ironically enough, I find Japanese customer service culture to be closer to that of the US than France - the customer is king, and while thankfully not too common, some Japanese customers will definitely abuse that dynamic. There's been a growing awareness and pushback on カスハラ, but it's a real thing, and is very cringe to witness)
My favorite French shop anecdote (I'm American): Went to a bakery in Paris. Tried to order "Un croissant, s'il vous plaît". Shopkeeper responded (in very lightly accented English) with "I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying". I wasn't mad or offended, in fact it's one of my favorite memories from the trip.
I'm sure it happens in a lot of places around borders though, not sure that's unique to the French.
As a Norwegian who's been visiting the US for quite a few times now (as we speak), I've always appreciated the "hello, please, thank you", but what really gets me are the incessant "how are you"s.
It was later that I found out that "how are you" is a perfectly valid answer to "how are you" and it still boggles my mind 20 years later.
Way better than what we have here in the US.
For those not familiar with them, the gist is that Japanese zoning defines what's basically a maximum nuisance level (from low-density residential, up to various levels of commercial operation, up to heavy industry), and anything up to that can be built in the given area. Plenty of 'residential' areas are broadly zoned as allowing up to light or medium commercial activity wherever an owner can put it.
In Japan I was in a city during a local jazz festival. Entire streets shut down, bars with stalls set up on the street selling drinks. Kids intermingled in the alcohol drinking area and you know what? People behaved themselves and had a great time.
Australia, lacking any real problems to solve is like a modern immune system attacking the host because it can't find the invaders it should be taking care of.
And Perth ... the zoning here seems to work in a way that suburbs don't get shops, restaurants and bars integrated into them at all. Daycare centres are bloody everywhere, apparently they are really big business, but there's no community pub anywhere round here. Contrast to the UK where pubs are just sorta interspersed with houses in a lot of places.
People say one of the reasons Perth has fewer pubs is because we don't have the pokies so can't support so many, but I think it's also because poor planning has made it a real effort to get to one.
Not a privilege. Anyone can do that. They usually keep the bottle(s) for up to 3 months.
Source: I’m Japanese.
Source: I'm Japanese too ;]
I could easily see this being an issue in a lot of smaller US bars.
A group of 10+ loud university students coming into a sleepy storefront bar may not be doing anything wrong per se but they can completely change the atmosphere for the regulars.
"Unlike the bars or nightclubs many tourists may imagine, snack bars are warm, home-like places," said Mayuko Igarashi, president and director of Snack Yokocho Culture Inc, which has been offering tours of snack bars across Japan for travellers since 2021. "The 'mama'… welcomes guests with a sense of personal care."
I often go on food tours in new cities (e.g. Secret Food Tours) and the restaurants they visit seem to like the consistent revenue stream during off-hours.
And if there is staff it's usually a big grumpy guy. And the food is really greasy. It's not a place you go for fun. It's more for quick fix food (though some of it is delicious though bad for you)
I didn't like Japan much personally because it's so conservative and traditional (like it says there in the article LGBTQ+ is still an issue there, tattoos are frowned upon, life is pretty formal etc). So I don't feel at home there. And as such I've never really explored it. It's a nice country with nice people but I just don't fit in which was awkward for me. I'm more at home at a burning man kinda setting :)
But this sounds pretty cool. If I do have to go there again some day I'll look one of these places up.
[1] Notably, the lack of legalised marriage is not because the population is too conservative. Rather, it is because the US forced a constitution on Japan which enshrines heterosexual marriage as constitutional law, and changing the constitution is significantly more difficult than changing a normal law. There is broad popular support for same-sex marriage, and it would almost certainly be legal if not for this fact.
This is somewhat true of major US metros, but the effect is particularly strong in Tokyo, etc. It’s one of the things I love about living there… being just a number is liberating, even as someone quite boring and mild-mannered.
A bit like Glasgow then.
I’m sure there are social issues, a local bartender told us they had linguistic limitations that acted as sort of barriers to expression, and I’m sure there are issues for gay youth, but as a whole it felt relatively similar to most western countries from a safety/friendliness perspective. Gay marriage is a slow turnaround, and given Japanese culture is socially conservative I imagine that might take a while, but marriage and social acceptance are not necessarily tightly coupled.
The point was that in US LGBTQ is politicized. If you tell people about it, you have to either defend it (vs conservatives) or explain it (vs progressives, but with encouragement). Both got very exhausting fast for the person, even the well intentioned ones.
In Japan, the general reaction from coworkers to landlords was へー, そうなんだ。 (oh ok, cool.) no follow up questions or prodding.
Vast majority don't care enough about your private sexual preferences. (goodness sake people it's the country of Hentai, people there really don't fucking care about your private presences) They do, however, care when you politicize it (making it their issue)
The trend is slow but good looking for LGBTQ right in Japan. It won't move forward like people expect in the west. I'd guess one or two more generations. The only risk factor I see is the west. The polarization and politization of the issue, seen from Japan, is making the conservative wings more cautious about the topic.
Either case, Shinjuku 2chome will be a very welcoming place. My gay friend from Sweden love that place more than any supposed to be gay friendly place in Europe
That matches my experience pretty well, including the expats living here.
Coming out to my friends was kinda relieving since we all hang out anyways, and _nothing's changed_.
This kinda made me feel awkward because I couldn't be myself so I basically dissociated and just went through the motions while I was there. And didn't explore much. It was annoying because we weren't even there as businessmen but technical experts.
I think my colleague was overdoing the whole fitting in thing anyway but I was really on edge. I'm sure my impression was tainted by it now that I think of it.
The vast majority of the "rules" apply only in extreme business situations, generally in the oldest Japanese companies.
Outside of that, the Japanese are extremely forgiving of those that are visiting not following _every single custom_. There's an understanding that so long as you're not disrupting the peace (being super loud, making a mess, etc) then a level of tolerance is applied.
LGBT is much of the same way where, your personal feelings and decisions don't impact everyone else, and thus it's not their business to decide what you can/can't do.
Once you're living here, there's some expectation that you start learning and participating in customs and traditions, but even that's extremely flexible.
Now I wish I could go back some time to really experience it :)
Beyond the fact that they could easily get around this with civil unions, this feels like a massive misrepresentation of the status quo inside the LDP politicians that ultimately get to decide whether progress is made on this.
The current prime minister, in her previous attempt to campaign to be the head of the party (back in ... 2022 I think?), declared her opposition to married couples opting out of sharing a last name[0]. In the 21st century, strong opposition to the idea that somebody might want to keep their own family name after marriage. Something so small and unimportant. Still very far away from civil unions for non-hetero couples.
The Japanese ruling class is so far away from acceptance of anything beyond a very specific notion of married couples, even if the general population thinks differently. These things can change quickly but just in terms of policy delta between Japan and most other members of the OECD the gap is quit huge. Legal rights for one's spouse starts is important, and right now there's really nothing.
(There are some logistical things around the family register that mean that such a change would require some changes to that format. This is not a good enough reason to prevent this!)
[0]: In Japan if two Japanese people get married then they have to unify on their last name. In practice this usually means the woman throwing away their last name. In a funny twist of fate you actually have more flexibiltiy in an international marriage. If a Japanese person marries a foreigner they _don't_ have to do this (and can even go with a hyphenated last name!).
> Something so small and unimportant. Still very far away from civil unions for non-hetero couples.
Your framing of this issue is a bit misleading. You suppose that this name change issue is a prerequisite step for support for civil unions because in your perception it is more trivial. But actually, support for same-sex marriage is more popular than support for different surnames in marriage. Although even then, a supermajority also support different surnames, and even a majority of LDP supporters support both too.
You’re right to point out public support (I didn’t realize the name thing had less support than same-sex marriage!)
I mainly wanted to highlight that the politicians are not there yet (or rather the ones that end up making the decision, even if supporters and the rank and file support it). But maybe we’ll get same-sex marriage before the name thing!
I could totally be misreading what the state of things on the ground is.
One thing I would like to note is that Takaichi doesn't necessarily get to make the decision. Japan does not have a presidential system and the PM does not have veto power. As PM she does obviously hold significant influence in the party, but the LDP is a broad tent with multiple factions, and those factions could potentially pressure her given the LDP is losing ground and opposition to same-sex rights is unpopular even with the party's supporters. Due to the constitutional law issue, I'm not optimistic about same-sex marriage in the near-term, but I do think things are trending in the correct direction, that it's likely that more legal rights will continue to be enshrined in the short-term even if full marriage recognition isn't, and that Western media creating a panic about Takaichi and Japan's supposed trend towards ultraconservatism is more oriented towards garnering engagement than accurate reporting.
https://apnews.com/article/japan-lgbtq-samesex-marriage-ruli...
第二十四条
婚姻は、両性の合意のみに基いて成立し、夫婦が同等の権利を有することを基本として、相互の協力により、維持されなければならない。
I'm not a lawyer, but they're working on it.
Sorry, but I don't see your reasoning support this at all. The relative lack of Abrahamic religion would make an impact for sure, but Japan is more socially conservative by most relevant metrics. How does this one factor overcome that?
The subject matter is LGBTQ acceptance specifically. The point about Abrahamic religion is that it creates a culture of extremely open and aggressive hostility towards LGBTQ people. Hatred becomes part of people's foundational beliefs because they believe that is what God demands of them, and they cannot be reasoned with to reach a mutual understanding. While you could cherrypick "relevant metrics" like specific legal rights to rate Western countries as "more progressive", the actual populations are less accepting, in other words your social rights are lesser and you are more likely to face severe discrimination and violence. Those legal rights are also in an extremely fragile state because there are conservative movements to strip those rights. In Japan, indifference is far more common than hatred, and political movements are not polarized around things like "wokeness" or "social justice". Takaichi, widely reported in Western media as ushering in a new era of Japanese hard-right conservatism, has a pretty moderate stance that is analogous to Obama circa 2008; she does not support same-sex marriage, but is not actively antagonistic or hateful towards LGBTQ people.
I would sum it up as this: LGBTQ life in Japan is peaceful. Legal rights could stand to be improved, but there is no fight to constantly justify your own existence, and you are allowed to live without facing significant social prejudice. Most people are accepting, and those that aren't mostly just don't care. There are large supportive communities and extensive cultural representation in media, too. I, personally, would never trade this status quo for that of the US or UK in a million years.
My understanding is that this isn't about tattoos per se, but that historically only yakuza would have them. So it's more about not wanting to deal with criminals than not liking tattoos in and of themselves.
But in general, you’d expect what was outlined in the post. From my friends and etc., food might range from pretty bad to average. Might get charged service fee if you’re not hyperlocal to the bar. Also atmosphere, once again, depends. City, neighbourhood, sleeziness level and etc.
About the gay stuff… Honestly it’s more of a “i don’t care just don’t show it off” attitude, rather than “no gays allowed”. But the “don’t show it off” part applies to straight people as well. Nobody is gonna do or say anything, but an auntie might shake their heads as they pass by.
Tattoos are a bit different. If you’re white, nobody will care unless they’re very visible (face/neck). You’ll be barred from some establishments (e.g. onsens/gyms), but if it’s coverable with the covers then it’s fine. Mostly historical reasons, and people’s aversion from accidentally hanging out with the “troublesome crowd” as one would say.
That being said, they do have issues with some nationalities. For example, the average American is way too loud for the average japanese place. Even if they think they are being polite, they just talk too loud and too much for japanese sensibilities.
I know the majority owner of a pretty massive fast food chain (600 stores, most franchises) and he was telling me he was offered 10M to sell the company. His entire life he worked day and night, and he would be getting $3M. (Mind you, he owns dozens of franchises, so he still keeps those)
He brought his kid into the business, and I can tell he has a bit of envy that I own a small software company that within a few years is approaching 1M in revenue. There is less glamor and margins in food.
I have some ideas of using my math/engineering skills to make low cost recipes that taste good, using my masters in Industrial Engineering to lower cooking/labor costs, but... economics pushes me towards high value. Any time I do the math on food service, I see myself making 100k/yr, and never 1M/yr.
But pertaining to this article, the key to tiny Japanese restaurants such as these snack bars is that their startup costs are extremely low, rents are low and since they're tiny, they don't need staff so they keep all the profit. Probably good enough to make an average living without too many worries.
I program a w2 job and can make 1.5x that without difficulty. I program for my own company and make 2-20x more.
I don't think the average person could handle the risk, difficulty of labor, and knowledge to run a successful restaurant that makes 100k/yr.
> I don't think the average person could handle the risk, difficulty of labor, and knowledge to run a successful restaurant that makes 100k/yr.
Margins are so low in restaurants in North America because of absurd regulations, zoning, rent, etc... Literally 90% of the costs are bullshit.
That's why it's difficult. You need a ton of revenue to deal with the bullshit, which means large upfront investment, staff, expensive rent, etc... You're doing more than most CEOs. Take away all the bullshit and it's a pretty straightforward business that anyone can do: you sell food and drinks.
In Japan or much of the EU, to make $100k you really only need to sell $150-200k. No staff, tiny footprint, minimal regulations, cheap rent or you own it. That's how restaurants can survive there with like 10 guests per night.
The desserts are where I can tell the most since one restaurants lava cake is often dangerously close to every other mid tier restaurant.
I wish we had stuff like this in Vancouver.
That's only in the areas frequented by tourists. The vast majority of such tiny bars cater mainly to locals.
Lately I've been taking pictures of bar signs in Japanese cities:
https://gally.net/barsigns/index.html
The sheer number of bars in such dense concentrations continues to impress me.
> A "snack bar" (スナックバー, sunakku bā), "snack" for short, refers to a kind of hostess bar. It is an alcohol-serving bar that employs female staff to serve and flirt with male customers.
It is the kind of place where lonely men pay money to talk to hostesses, and while the "mama" runs the show, there is also a staff of young women who do most of the work.
The example shown in the article, which happens to do speed dating and fortune telling, is absolutely not a central example of this kind of place.
I'm Japanese and I understand this issue perfectly and you don't. It's exactly as I said it is. There I told you so. So go take a hike.
Um, I'm calling shenanigans on this one. You have a viewpoint that seems more like negatively-biased indirect knowledge of this part of Japanese culture.
Were you born in Japan?
Have you lived there as an adult?
Have you frequented スナック and other types of hostess bars? If so, how did you discover them and with whom?
If you’re older, how has the スナック scene changed over your lifetime?
> > A "snack bar" (スナックバー, sunakku bā), "snack" for short, refers to a kind of hostess bar. It is an alcohol-serving bar that employs female staff to serve and flirt with male customers.
My friend, quoting Wikipedia on a topic as culture-specific as スナック is just flat out irresponsible.
スナック run the whole gamut from friendly place to hang out, to a place lonely men flirt with hostesses, to thinly-veiled fronts for prostitution (and possibly human trafficking), with most leaning much more in the vanilla direction. While they aren’t always easy to tell apart from each other from the outside looking, スナック and キャバクラ or クラブ (or whatever they are calling them at a given time and in a given place) are very different experiences with different expectations.
The bar-going locals pretty much all know the rules and expectations of each スナック. If they don’t know about a specific place, they can usually find out quickly.
The post-ww2 history of スナック (and other local drinking establishments) is fascinating if you can get people to talk to you about it. It definitely has been a way for various types of less-privileged folks (e.g., widows, low education, low social class, etc.) to earn money, some times multiples of what their customers earn. [side note: this isn’t actually as great as it sounds sometimes, as the bar scene has lower social status than a salaryman job, even if the bar owner makes 3-10x what the salarymen make).
To close, the one specific subset of スナック that you refer to definitely exists, but it doesn’t define the whole dynamic genre.
Source: Me. Lived in Japan a while. Dated a スナック mama-san (no money was involved) after I was taken to her place by a friend of mine who was her alcohol distributor. Learned a lot from her.