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Comment by londons_explore | Hacker News Reader

You can do a while lifetimes work, and yet sometimes it's a tiny action like this which can have the biggest benefit to mankind.

Just think how many billions of times someone has avoided pulling up to the wrong side of the pump because of this arrow - literal lifetimes of effort saved.

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The person (committee?) who came up with USB A needs sanctions.

And Apple Needs more, for putting power buttons and key ports at that back.

No the people who decided that usb 3.2 gen 2x2 and usb 4 version 2.0 gen 4x2 were acceptable names are the ones who should be sanctioned

I still don't know by memory whether USB full-speed or USB high-speed is faster. Boy, tech people just can't name things.

Hey, when we said naming things was one of the hardest problems in computer science, we were right!

whats wrong with usb-a? I feels more sturdy and less likely to have connection issues then usb-c in my experience.

> whats wrong with usb-a?

Which way up it should go.

Simple. The third way you try, always.

Macro-scale quantum hardware: USB-A is a spin-1.5 connector.

The side with the holes. That's true for 95% of devices, with one of the few major exceptions being cheap chinese powerbanks

Or if you’re plugging into a desktop where the ports are vertical

There is usually still a concept of front. Most desktops if laid down would be laying on their right side (so the motherboard & cpu aren't upside down). From there you can still pretty easily tell how the port is oriented without looking.

Which requires being able to see the plug.

As with most plugs that came before it.

They were not externally symmetric

Also the side that has the logo on.

USB-C is better than A in that it works in two orientations instead of one, but the correct answer for connectors should be any orientation — the best connectors are cylindrical connectors: barrel plugs, RCA, BNC, banana, phono, TRS, TRRS, etc. Just make them round.

Man, there’s nothing more satisfying than the feel of a quarter-inch TRS plug slotting in to a high quality jack. Truly one of the great plug designs.

And one of the oldest. It dates back to the 1870s. Older even than the Edison Screw.

LEMO push-pull connectors and their ilk are mighty satisfying.

Well, more like 1.5 orientations because we STILL have devices that only work with the cable in one of two valid orientations.

Would it be practical to have a round port as a universal connector? USB C uses a lot of pins, how would that work? Like an audio plug with a lot of rings?

I think it would be practical with glass fibre. Two wires/rings for power, and fibre for data. Something like a Mini-TOSLINK, but even smaller. Ideally the plug would be barely thicker than the cable.

Glass fibre is pretty fragile though, it would probably break in the first hour for most people if used like a normal USB Cable.

Just use polymer fibre for consumer gear. Cheaper and more robust.

Can that still transfer data at full speed with reasonable cable length while bent?

The other way

No, the other other way.

It's almost impressive that they designed a port that feels so wrong when you actually get it right

I worked in an IT department at one time and encountered USB-A plugs forced into Ethernet ports.

It seems so unlikely that I’ve just searched it to see if it’s possible, but am getting no hits.

My laptop has one of these ethernet ports that half close when not in use. It doesn't work anymore because someone mistook it for the USB port that's right next to it when distractingly plugging their keyboard in.

This reminds me so much of the old story about how a user called support to tell them their floppy drive wasn't working. When the tech got there, the computer had no floppy drives, and the user had been forcing the disks in the gap between the drive blank plates.

no, they definitely fit. They're just awkwardly exactly the right size that while you're trying to plug things in punched over under the desk and crawling around and feeling around the backside; it just yeah.

PS/2, which USB all but replaced, solved this by visually keying one side of the connector as flat.

And I have more than once bent the tiny pins by trying to orient the plug by feel, and it was a nightmare to fix it afterwards.

You've never ruined a PS/2 port by rotating the plug to find the right orientation?

When I'm trying to plug my PS/2 keyboard into the port in back of my computer which I cannot see, instead of needing to try two orientations, I need to try every orientation.

And USB solved it by having the logo on the upper side.

Where the logo is.

And when the port is vertical and you can’t see it?

I’m surprised how tolerable people seemed to find Apples rear ports.

It's very weird that USB-C solved the problem of "we can't tell which way to insert the plug" by mandating that both orientations should work, as opposed to just making the exterior of the plug as asymmetrical as the interior.

I don't find it weird. Not even having to work out a correct orientation is a great convenience. The micro-USB connection (or is it "min"?), which I need to fiddle with to charge some older gadgets, is a testament to how annoying an "asymetric exterior" plug can still be.

With micro USB you end up with damaged plugs and ports in my experience.

Yes, micro USB is far too flimsy for a lot of things it’s used for from what I’ve observed. The connector seems to have a lot of leverage for ripping its tracks off, but often not a great mechanical connection to the board.

You mean something like HDMI? If you’ve ever tried to plug one of those into the back of a TV, you’ll know it’s still pretty difficult to get it the right way up.

> If you’ve ever tried to plug one of those into the back of a TV, you’ll know it’s still pretty difficult to get it the right way up.

That's true, but the difficulty in that case comes from being unable to see the hole or fit into the space between the television and the wall.

For example, plugging an HDMI cable into the back of a monitor involves none of the difficulty of plugging an HDMI cable into the back of a TV, even though the connector and the port are the same in both cases.

At least HDMI is a 'low frequency' connector, often only ever plugged in once, as opposed to USB (or refueling a car)

I bought a cheap USB hub so I don't have to reach behind the TV to plug things in

Have you ever tried to use a D-sub connector?

Very asymmetric, impossible to plug in backwards, only one possible orientation.

Still absolutely fucking awful. Same for HDMI, displayport.

The RJ series are the only asymmetric connectors I've use that you can easily get in blind.

Less weird as they get smaller. Call it an accessibility thing if you like, but I think it's better for everyone and congrats to them. Isn't this what technology is supposed to do, make things easier?

sometimes you're plugging in things at the back of something nearly flush against a wall and you can't really see, its quite useful for the connector to be reversible.

Which rear facing "key port" on a Mac are you suggesting should be on the front?

> Which rear facing "key port" on a Mac are you suggesting should be on the front?

USB.

I used iMacs, mini and pro machines. Any ports in the front would be nice.

My m4 mini does have some front ports. It’s less of an issue now with usb-c but the iMac presumably still rear mounts them.

The Mac Studio has two of 6 TB/USB-C ports on the front, and has since inception.

So does the Mac Pro (well technically they're on the top now) and has on most models since the G5 PowerMac 20 years ago; The single model without front/top ports was replaced in 2019.

So does the Mac mini has two front facing ports now.

So your complaint is essentially about the extremely minimalist, consumer-oriented iMac, or maybe older Mac minis.

Ok. Don't buy an iMac or an old Mac mini then.

When you plug in a USB stick, surely you want it on the front? Do you get around this with an adaptor or something?

My use case seems common. The bulk of my usage of their desktops was during the ultra minimum list era that you mention. I mostly love their machines but some of the form-over-function is rough.

Presumably Pros don’t need access to the power button either.

On the rare occasion I plug in a usb flash drive (I assume that's what you mean by "stick") I use the usb-c end. On the even rarer occasion I use it with some device that doesn't have usb-c (this is actually just hypothetical I've never done this in practice) I turn the flash drive around and use the usb-a end.

It's been clear that usb-c is the future for a decade now. How on earth do you still have flash drives that are usb-a only?

I probably use the power button once a month, and I'd say this is the norm for most developers/similar people. It's no harder than accessing the menu button/toggle stick on the back of my dell display.

I rarely see a USB-C memory stick. I bought one and I’m not sure I’ve seen another. I’m usually dealing with ones others pass to me.

To make it worse, the machines I use have several USB-A ports and at most, 1 USB-C (any macs being an exception).

This is primary on MRI scanners. We live in a deeply flawed world.

Sandisk have been making dual-port usb flash drives for years. I see no reason to buy/use any other kind, in the same way I see no reason buy a printer with a parallel port or a mouse with a ps2 plug on it.

If it's really a significant problem, use the benefits of usb and put a hub or usb extension cord on the desk to connect to.

I just cannot fathom how such trivial factors are a problem for people.

What's wrong with pulling up to the wrong side of the pump? I do it all the time when the petrol station is busy, just pull the hose over to the other side and fuel the car anyway.

just because there's nothing particularly wrong with only getting the usb in on the 3rd try doesn't mean it's not a minor inconvenience worth resolving.

but if you want a more dramatic example, it's right there in the text: Moylan got soaked because of this inconvenience. if he'd gotten a pneumonia as a result of this and died, then that is suddenly much more than a minor inconvenience.

There's a trick to USB, the block part (in the wire) is nearer the ground. ( motherboard-side for vertical desktops )

Since learning that, I have the confidence to stick it in first time rather than 3rd or 4th.

That's not to say that USB-C isn't a huge improvement that has thankfully resolved having to know that.

I like that usbc is double sided but I find them prone to pop out a lot easier than standard usb. It's a weird ask but wish they were bigger

The hose won't always reach.

In my experience that's only true in TV adverts from my childhood. I've never had one unable to reach in real life.

Apparently you have a tiny car? I’ve never had a vehicle (even a small Subaru) that they reached.

I should clarify. The hose probably reaches when the rear of the car is adjacent to where the hose connects to the pump.

(I only drive my normal passenger cars, not trucks.)

But I'm me not in the habit of doing that, because it doesn't usually matter for me.

Try in Europe

I'm in Europe, in case you're on the "wrong" side of the pump you just have to make sure that you park the car a little further, so you'd get the pump hose through the back and on to the other side without scratching the car's paint. That's all it is to it. I'm from Romania and I've driven (and hence re-fueled) my car all the way from Bretagne, France, to Peloponnese, Greece, never had a problem.

I also don't know anything about any "arrow" signalling anything in my dashboard, maybe it's only on the US-made cars, I wouldn't know cause I generally know on which side I have to fuel my car.

I'm also in Europe, I drive a ford, and the only fuel arrow on my dash actually points to the wrong side for filling

Petrol or diesel?

Oh I'm a week late but diesel

You have a car that runs on raw petrol?

I do not know where you are in the world but in the homeland of the English language, Britain and most of its direct (former!) colonies, "petrol" is the stuff cars and motorbikes run on and "diesel" is the stuff agricultural vehicles and heavy plant (lorries, buses) runs on. "Gas" is a phase of matter along with "liquid", "solid", and "plasma" and that is all the bare noun means. "Natural gas", and the obsolete "coal gas"/"town gas", are fuels, but for heating/cooking/light not vehicles as a rule, but generally we'd talk about propane, butane, etc.

We never, ever use "gasoline" or the Germanic "benzene" for this. Benzene is a specific chemical here, never ever a fuel.

Here in Australia 'gas' as a fuel always means LPG (liquified petroleum gas = propane/butane). And it is getting rarer for cars.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-19/lpg-cars-disappearing...

Hence the expression "now you're cooking with gas"

That must confuse the hell out of the yanks

Agreed about never having a problem with this, but our cars either have the arrow, or the hose in the icon is on the side of the car that has the tank cover. This has been true for all cars I've seen here.

I'm in Europe, the hoses always reach to the other side of the car just fine. Or maybe you know, remember that Europe isn't one country and actually say where you are.

Try in The World

I live in Europe, never encountered a problem.

I live in europe. It does reach the other side.

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