Hacker News Reader

Comment by alexpotato | Hacker News Reader

Back in 2019, got to go to Hong Kong for a couple months for work and got to bring my family.

I was about to turn 40 and realized that the place we were staying had a rock wall. In a somewhat "mid life crisis" spur of the moment decision, I decided to go buy shoes, a belt and a chalk bag (I did a lot of indoor rock climbing in college).

We get there and the rock wall is a. closed and b. only for kids.

Get back to the US and COVID lockdown starts. As things open up, I go on the town dad's Facebook group and ask if anyone wants to go rock climbing with me. Multiple dads say "hell, yes!" so I start a rock climbing club.

One of the dads that joins the climbing club loves board games, is inspired by my starting the rock climbing club so he starts the town board game club.

I tell people this story to illustrate that:

- if you don't have a club or org for something that you're into, go start one

- you doing the above can trigger other people to start clubs too

View on HN

Two years ago, my son was REALLY struggling with his depression. Having tried almost everything, at the suggestion of his therapist, he tried cold showers. To show some solidarity, I decided we should do cold plunges into the ocean together. A guy that I was starting to become friendly with humored us and came with.

Two years later, that guy and I are best friends, and we cold plunge every Saturday together. Just did a new years plunge with our friend group that is growing. My wife commented this morning that I've really 'farmed' my friend group, whereas a few years ago. I was myself very frustrated with having no real friends anymore.

FYI, my son is in a much better place.

Good to hear, I struggle with depression and cold plunges have been life changing for me also. I would love to find a community to do it with.

The way Finns do it they take a hot Sauna in the winter and when they get out of the hot-room they go lay naked in the snow. Or plunge into the frozen lake through a sawed-out hole. Then they go back to the sauna again to feel the warmth again. It does feel great and stops you from dwelling in miserable thoughts. That may be part of the reason why Finns are ranked happiest people for multiple years.

Yep, I’ve spent time in Finland and loved this… but for me it works better to skip the warm part and just do the cold.

However, the Finns in the winter did not seem to be happy at all, but mostly quite deep in seasonal depression.

I agree Finns don't usually look very happy. I think their suicide rates are quite high. They drink too much coffee and alcohol. But they do have a great democracy, society, education, healthcare, wealth equality, gender equality. So maybe these studies about happiness instead simply measure "Which people SHOULD be happiest in the world".

I have to mention the 300 club at Amundsen-Scott station. When the temp outside hits -100 (F) they crank up their sauna to 200, then run from the sauna to outside in their underwear.

As part of the 300 club, I have to say that there was no underwear involved in my cohort, just shoes (a requirement).

I am jealous -- can you expand on what I read about having to be careful about breathing as you ran outside for fear of freezing your lungs?

There’s something about cold plunges. My group started when some of us started meeting for drinks and a swim after work during the summer, and we just kept doing it every week through the winter. Some joined the group during the winter. Those people became my closest friends:

- We see each other every week, almost without fail

- I suspect the invitation to a cold plunge pre-selects for people with very high openness, and those people aren’t afraid of deep friendships

- Doing something hard and a little bit scary together strengthens the bond

> Doing something hard and a little bit scary together strengthens the bond

This can’t be underestimated. Most of my adult friends come from my trekking hobby. Everyone struggles during a trek, group dynamics form, you stay surprisingly close with the people you trekked with.

I used to do long distance cycling with a few friends. We have a ridiculously tight bond around that suffering. So many hours asking each other what the hell we were thinking, and so many hours planning the next trips. We'd do 300, 400, 600km in a go. I miss it, and I miss them.

600km?! at what pace? I've ridden 190km a couple times, but that was a. a long time ago b. took all day. In my defense, it was on a fully-loaded touring bike, but even on a high-spec racing bike I can't imagine cranking (heh) out more than maybe 300km in one go.

For those really long guys we'd manage just 18kph or so. On shorter ones like 200km, we'd average more like mid 20s. I think beyond 300km is where the big shift happened and our average dropped a ton. Though we rode with some guys who had averages in the high 20s, even on 600s or further.

We initially wanted to do a ride in France called Paris-Brest-Paris, but never got good enough. That's a 1200km ride. Then kids happened, careers, etc. I'm too bad at time management for that kind of riding, haha.

600/18 = 33+ hours(!!!)

Hats off to you!

I’ve done some long rides to be sure, but the longest I’ve ever ridden non-stop-ish is probably about 14 hours. I think riding through the night is a deal-breaker for me. I’ve never been on the road earlier than 6am, or later than 10pm.

14 hours is a solid trek! The 30 hour+ rides were relatively uncommon for us. I'd say the majority were closer to what you've done.

For sure, riding at night is awful. I'm too risk-averse to do it much these days. I've got kids who depend on me to be more careful than that.

We typically left around 4am, and on some rides would finish after midnight if not riding most of the night. Those dark hours were always pleasantly low-traffic, yet I always wondered if the ratio of drunk and/or tired drivers was far worse.

I think that's really the only part I don't miss, come to think of it. Headlights at night were always unsettling.

friendships are strengthed by shared hard and painful experiences. online friendships just don't feel the same

I think people often underestimate how, for dad's in particular, there's a massive need for this.

Prior to Covid, I'd started a Wednesday "Dad's Night" where we just got together from 9-10 in my backyard to hang out and have a beer. Eventually we'd move to random local pubs and often it would go to 11pm. It grew with consistency as people would invite other folks. Had one of the assistant basketball coaches from Clemson show up one time. Some of the guys who home brewed would bring something.

The key was a time, after the kids are in bed on a night in the middle of the week when people didn't have other plans.

Covid killed it, but we eventually just became a "grab lunch" text group.

I think Country Clubs and golf used to be the "default" outlet for a lot of people, but as those prices have increased there's a gap to fill.

I imagine lonely men seeing you playing basketball together on the street and thinking “How come I never make friends”…

> how, for dad’s in particular, there is a massive need for this

- Yes

- And also for single men at 45, because everyone’s busy and they feel like a failure for not having a family (meanwhile having a family is such an incredible performance)

- Teens. There is a massive loneliness epidemic among teens. At least we 40-year-olds have had friends before. But the iphonocene (the era of smart phones) has created a generation of people whose friends were always, constantly, busy with phones.

We play a game (whichyr.com) were we guess the year of random pictures. The first criteria is whether people are bent while walking. Not bent: pre-2013. Bent on the phone: Post-2013. It’s not the invention of the phone, it’s the usage of it.

One thing I noticed, is that as I meet other new Dads in my area, they are all inviting me to go do things.

I mean not just 1 or 2, every single time. It maybe golf, gun range, driving, anything. I'm a introvert that has problem scheduling time, but a lot of Dads don't have male friends and are desperately seeking other male-only quality time.

> I think people often underestimate how, for dad's in particular, there's a massive need for this.

One of the things that really drove it home for me was going on r/daddit and seeing post after post of dads with young kids talking about how lonely they are.

In the scenario of the "working dad, stay at home mom" + elementary age kids, it's REALLY tough b/c moms can socialize during school hours whereas the dad is only available from 5-6pm onwards which coincides with dinner/bed time.

Some tips for the above:

- Have regularly scheduled "hang out with friends night". Lot easier to manage than "hey, can I hang out with my buddy tonight?"

- Do "swaps" e.g. where after kids are in bed, dad A hangs out with dad B at house B, wife B hangs out with wife A at house A (so you don't need to get a babysitter)

Volunteering in smaller orgs is also a great option because it naturally filters for people who actually want to do something good around them, and the way you work together leaves more space for communication than a lot of group-but-actually-solitary hobbies out there.

A few years ago I joined my rural neighborhood council, and I’d never been around so many people consistently being generous with their time and energy. It’s really uplifting, and you end up learning a lot from each other in the process too.

Maybe it's been "just" my bad experiences, but in volunteering i've always seen some social "power" dynamics that I don't really like.

Some person somehow gets to be the leader and bosses people around. Those people aren't always the brightest or the most compassionate. They often are pushy, they are somewhat totalitarian, they really don't like their ways to be questioned. Sometimes (not always) they are the most dedicated but only because they made volunteering their identity or their main source of self-esteem (this can either happen because they don't have anything else going on in their life OR because what goes on in their life do not satisfy them).

They are often "open to new people, ideas and contribution" only as long as anything new is very well aligned with their (personal) line of thinking and/or does not question their "authority" in any way.

Either way, I've seen that happen too many times to take volunteering any seriously.

I’ve met some of them. To me: don’t get stuck. If it’s not working, move on. There’s a zillion volunteer orgs, so keep shopping until you find somewhere that you like and appreciates you.

I stay volunteering for the people I work with even more than my investment in the goals of the organization.

You can find something like that - keep looking.

I've met all kinds of people and surely enough, some can be toxic, dark triad, etc. I'd say some topics, such as politics and animal welfare, seem more prone to attracting those types. But having a few of them here and there also helps to develop patience and diplomatic skills for de-escalating and creating a healthier environment despite their presence.

In my case, local community orgs are usually run by older, often retired people. Doesn't mean there's no drama, but it's not the same kind of drama you'll find in predominantly younger organizations.

One of the things becoming an adult that people miss is that somebody has to set stuff up and that somebody can be you.

It's really easy to be in the mindset that someone else should have already set up the rock climbing club and that if it doesn't exist it just can't.

Turns out that someone can be you! (and this is the thing people miss out on, you can actively make your world more like the way you want it to be by being that leader yourself and doing so is often way easier than you think)

I have had this discussion with my wife, men need activities more than women to bond. My wife can make friends just by randomly running into other women at events or my daughter's activities.

The concept of a social cabin or "men's shed" has been discussed before on HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38158616

The phenomenon began in Australia but it has spread to other countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men's_shed

Basically the whole point of the Freemasonry fraternity as well. Male only. It is dressed up with some altruistic goals and rituals, but it is a social club for men essentially.

> Basically the whole point of the Freemasonry fraternity as well. Male only. It is dressed up with some altruistic goals and rituals

Freemasonry began as a workers' guild, but the accreted "goals and rituals" take a group far beyond the simplicity of a men's shed.

The simplicity of any club rapidly becomes complex when monotheism or henotheism (any theism) is injected:

From Wikipedia:

* Anglo-American style Freemasonry, which insists that a "volume of sacred law" should be open in a working lodge, that every member should profess belief in a supreme being, that only men should be admitted, and discussion of religion or politics does not take place within the lodge.

* Continental Freemasonry or Liberal style Freemasonry which has continued to evolve beyond these restrictions, particularly regarding religious belief and political discussion.

* Women Freemasonry or Co-Freemasonry, which includes organisations that either admit women exclusively or accept both men and women."

[1] _ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry

I don't think it is complex. The theme of a social group is just there as a filter. If you like rock climbing and meet someone at a rock climbing gym that person is far more likely to be interested in things you are interested in: physical fitness, the particular mental challenges of rock climbing, etc. It was just an example. I won't analyze the sexism or male only nature of the fraternity, but I think Freemasonry anecdotally reinforces the idea that men want/need/form these kind of clubs more than women on average.

When we study this we notice very small actual bias at an individual level on socialization preference. The differences are modest and more like slight preferences. There is more overlap than not at a local individual level. What gets missed is that even though the differences are relatively small, the network effect greatly amplifies these small variances resulting in non-linear outcomes. Even small biases at an individual level essentially produce significant effect in socialization behavior.

> I don't think it is complex.

I'll defer to you of course if you have personal experience that I do not. But would it not become more complex than a "woodworking club" (men's shed) or than a brick mason's guild as soon as a complex filter such as religion is introduced?

> I won't analyze the sexism or male only nature of the fraternity

No need to analyse the usefulness of fraternity (or sorority), I think. It's just a fact that sometimes the sexes don't want to mingle. What could become problematic are cases of gender-fluidity.

> but I think Freemasonry anecdotally reinforces the idea that men want/need/form these kind of clubs more than women on average.

There seem to be as many Women’s Institute members in England as there are Freemasons.

And that is before you consider more ad hoc organisations like book clubs that are definitely more female dominated (though sports clubs perhaps the opposite?)

> men need activities more than women to bond

Frankly, I don't know why more women doesn't center their social life around activities.

It's an excellent idea. Seriously, what's not to like?

Honestly, as a non-sports loving male, it makes it much harder to build male friendships.

Not that its impossible, but the majority* of men get together to watch, play, or talk about sports the majority of the time... whereas I'm perfectly fine just hanging out where hanging out is the activity!

I eventually just stopped trying to invite most of my guy friends out for 1-1 meals, etc.

* hyperbole

Kids these days get together and give presentations to each other. For example, a co-worker of mine had everyone at her birthday party present on an inventor they chose.

Rock climbing (in the US gyms, anyway) is such an easy way to meet new people.

You don’t even to find a group or friends before you go. Just go to the bouldering area and hang out during a popular time.

Most gyms have partner finder programs and designated social nights.

Every gym I’ve been a member of has also had a bring a friend program where you get to bring one new person for free periodically.

Online groups are also a good way to meet new friends. This is HN so a lot of people will turn their nose up at Facebook but it’s full of groups of people who go out and do things.

> - if you don't have a club or org for something that you're into, go start one

This is how I met most of my local friends; I went out and started a D&D game.

D&D is slightly tricky, because most people want to play a character, instead of be the DM - so, you either need to find a DM, or be the DM. I'm lucky - I love DMing.

Another problem is maybe similar to what OP was facing; I see many people joining our local Discord, looking for a game, but none of them or the people welcoming them seem to take the actual next step of picking a time and a place to meet and start discussing where and when to actually play.

I have no interest in starting a club, but what I do (and you can too) is open your activity to others, (a) for easy access, and (b) with no strings. Typically all this means is reaching out to a small group to say "hey I'm planning to do <x>; want to come?". Encourage them to pass on your invite, don't take it personally if nobody comes (or even responds) and when they do bond over you shared love of <x>. Maybe this grows into a club, or just a shared message group, but regardless you still get to do what you wanted to in the first place.

this sounds like a club.

Not really, they said 'maybe this grows into a club', and I agree that just asking if someone wants to come along to something you're going to do isn't a club.

Once you don't need to ask, because it has a standing slot and standing membership, that's a club; once it has organised and centralised payments, that's a club.

"Hey tekno45, pub?" is not an initiation of a drinking club.

+1. A WhatsApp group with 10-20 ppl (in similar stages of life) worked well for a while for organizing hiking/tennis/squash/some sport/DotA. We got consistently 4-5 people including their spouses showing up. Usually 2-4 weekends a month. With that size, many people can comfortably pass on the invite.

Then organically these tend to turn into trips together or simple hangouts for someone's birthday or a holiday.

Every person I meet in climbing gym defines their life in two words: BC and AC: Before Climbing and After Climbing. Had the same experience as OP, thanks to it, I am more fit than ever and have a much better social life :)

So true

This is awesome and I wish I had the courage to do it.

My experience is, in the USA, eventually nearly every meetup is ruined by politics. Eventually someone says something unintentionally trigging someone else and then off it goes.

I haven't had that experience too often here in New England. Though I'm typically involved with specific hobby based groups. Usually politics are avoided and if someone insists they are basically politely ignored.

In my experience honestly this isn’t common. People really hate disagreeing IRL and can often sniff out when a disagreement is happening that’s just a form of trying to control the environment unnecessarily due to one’s personal issues. However it is important not to be too tolerant to straight up antisocial behavior that uses “don’t be political” as a form of self defense too. I’ve definitely had to kick out guys who did shit like treat women in the group like unwilling romantic targets even after being turned down, or guys who take being turned down personally and then tried to call the woman a fat cow over it who then also tried to use “stop being sensitive and political” as a cover for just being a poorly socialized male.

I needed to read this perspective, thanks.

Everyone I know in LA that beat the social stagnation had started their own event

Many people also just put you on a text messaging list when you exchange numbers. They only tell you the number to their list, but they are capable of responding individually from it

When they go somewhere, they tell the list, if you come you come, if you don't, nobody's missing you. No obligation, reply STOP to end. Otherwise you can bond at the event and meet everyone else too

Do you have any Hong Kong recommendations you can share? I am going there for two weeks in September and just starting to research. Very excited!

I'm a great lover of going to places with no real plan and just wandering the streets finding stuff. Hong Kong is a great city for this. Have a general plan, e.g. visit the memorial to the walled city, but get distracted along the way.

Also watch Ghost in the Shell which is vaguely set in Hong Kong then feel the vibe when you're there.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com