I rebooted my social life
takes.jamesomalley.co.uk
takes.jamesomalley.co.uk
I was about to turn 40 and realized that the place we were staying had a rock wall. In a somewhat "mid life crisis" spur of the moment decision, I decided to go buy shoes, a belt and a chalk bag (I did a lot of indoor rock climbing in college).
We get there and the rock wall is a. closed and b. only for kids.
Get back to the US and COVID lockdown starts. As things open up, I go on the town dad's Facebook group and ask if anyone wants to go rock climbing with me. Multiple dads say "hell, yes!" so I start a rock climbing club.
One of the dads that joins the climbing club loves board games, is inspired by my starting the rock climbing club so he starts the town board game club.
I tell people this story to illustrate that:
- if you don't have a club or org for something that you're into, go start one
- you doing the above can trigger other people to start clubs too
A few years ago I joined my rural neighborhood council, and I’d never been around so many people consistently being generous with their time and energy. It’s really uplifting, and you end up learning a lot from each other in the process too.
Some person somehow gets to be the leader and bosses people around. Those people aren't always the brightest or the most compassionate. They often are pushy, they are somewhat totalitarian, they really don't like their ways to be questioned. Sometimes (not always) they are the most dedicated but only because they made volunteering their identity or their main source of self-esteem (this can either happen because they don't have anything else going on in their life OR because what goes on in their life do not satisfy them).
They are often "open to new people, ideas and contribution" only as long as anything new is very well aligned with their (personal) line of thinking and/or does not question their "authority" in any way.
Either way, I've seen that happen too many times to take volunteering any seriously.
I stay volunteering for the people I work with even more than my investment in the goals of the organization.
You can find something like that - keep looking.
In my case, local community orgs are usually run by older, often retired people. Doesn't mean there's no drama, but it's not the same kind of drama you'll find in predominantly younger organizations.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38158616
The phenomenon began in Australia but it has spread to other countries.
Freemasonry began as a workers' guild, but the accreted "goals and rituals" take a group far beyond the simplicity of a men's shed.
The simplicity of any club rapidly becomes complex when monotheism or henotheism (any theism) is injected:
From Wikipedia:
* Anglo-American style Freemasonry, which insists that a "volume of sacred law" should be open in a working lodge, that every member should profess belief in a supreme being, that only men should be admitted, and discussion of religion or politics does not take place within the lodge.
* Continental Freemasonry or Liberal style Freemasonry which has continued to evolve beyond these restrictions, particularly regarding religious belief and political discussion.
* Women Freemasonry or Co-Freemasonry, which includes organisations that either admit women exclusively or accept both men and women."
When we study this we notice very small actual bias at an individual level on socialization preference. The differences are modest and more like slight preferences. There is more overlap than not at a local individual level. What gets missed is that even though the differences are relatively small, the network effect greatly amplifies these small variances resulting in non-linear outcomes. Even small biases at an individual level essentially produce significant effect in socialization behavior.
I'll defer to you of course if you have personal experience that I do not. But would it not become more complex than a "woodworking club" (men's shed) or than a brick mason's guild as soon as a complex filter such as religion is introduced?
> I won't analyze the sexism or male only nature of the fraternity
No need to analyse the usefulness of fraternity (or sorority), I think. It's just a fact that sometimes the sexes don't want to mingle. What could become problematic are cases of gender-fluidity.
There seem to be as many Women’s Institute members in England as there are Freemasons.
And that is before you consider more ad hoc organisations like book clubs that are definitely more female dominated (though sports clubs perhaps the opposite?)
Frankly, I don't know why more women doesn't center their social life around activities.
It's an excellent idea. Seriously, what's not to like?
Not that its impossible, but the majority* of men get together to watch, play, or talk about sports the majority of the time... whereas I'm perfectly fine just hanging out where hanging out is the activity!
I eventually just stopped trying to invite most of my guy friends out for 1-1 meals, etc.
* hyperbole
You don’t even to find a group or friends before you go. Just go to the bouldering area and hang out during a popular time.
Most gyms have partner finder programs and designated social nights.
Every gym I’ve been a member of has also had a bring a friend program where you get to bring one new person for free periodically.
Online groups are also a good way to meet new friends. This is HN so a lot of people will turn their nose up at Facebook but it’s full of groups of people who go out and do things.
It's really easy to be in the mindset that someone else should have already set up the rock climbing club and that if it doesn't exist it just can't.
Turns out that someone can be you! (and this is the thing people miss out on, you can actively make your world more like the way you want it to be by being that leader yourself and doing so is often way easier than you think)
This is how I met most of my local friends; I went out and started a D&D game.
D&D is slightly tricky, because most people want to play a character, instead of be the DM - so, you either need to find a DM, or be the DM. I'm lucky - I love DMing.
Another problem is maybe similar to what OP was facing; I see many people joining our local Discord, looking for a game, but none of them or the people welcoming them seem to take the actual next step of picking a time and a place to meet and start discussing where and when to actually play.
Once you don't need to ask, because it has a standing slot and standing membership, that's a club; once it has organised and centralised payments, that's a club.
"Hey tekno45, pub?" is not an initiation of a drinking club.
Then organically these tend to turn into trips together or simple hangouts for someone's birthday or a holiday.
Prior to Covid, I'd started a Wednesday "Dad's Night" where we just got together from 9-10 in my backyard to hang out and have a beer. Eventually we'd move to random local pubs and often it would go to 11pm. It grew with consistency as people would invite other folks. Had one of the assistant basketball coaches from Clemson show up one time. Some of the guys who home brewed would bring something.
The key was a time, after the kids are in bed on a night in the middle of the week when people didn't have other plans.
Covid killed it, but we eventually just became a "grab lunch" text group.
I think Country Clubs and golf used to be the "default" outlet for a lot of people, but as those prices have increased there's a gap to fill.
> how, for dad’s in particular, there is a massive need for this
- Yes
- And also for single men at 45, because everyone’s busy and they feel like a failure for not having a family (meanwhile having a family is such an incredible performance)
- Teens. There is a massive loneliness epidemic among teens. At least we 40-year-olds have had friends before. But the iphonocene (the era of smart phones) has created a generation of people whose friends were always, constantly, busy with phones.
We play a game (whichyr.com) were we guess the year of random pictures. The first criteria is whether people are bent while walking. Not bent: pre-2013. Bent on the phone: Post-2013. It’s not the invention of the phone, it’s the usage of it.
I mean not just 1 or 2, every single time. It maybe golf, gun range, driving, anything. I'm a introvert that has problem scheduling time, but a lot of Dads don't have male friends and are desperately seeking other male-only quality time.
One of the things that really drove it home for me was going on r/daddit and seeing post after post of dads with young kids talking about how lonely they are.
In the scenario of the "working dad, stay at home mom" + elementary age kids, it's REALLY tough b/c moms can socialize during school hours whereas the dad is only available from 5-6pm onwards which coincides with dinner/bed time.
Some tips for the above:
- Have regularly scheduled "hang out with friends night". Lot easier to manage than "hey, can I hang out with my buddy tonight?"
- Do "swaps" e.g. where after kids are in bed, dad A hangs out with dad B at house B, wife B hangs out with wife A at house A (so you don't need to get a babysitter)
Two years later, that guy and I are best friends, and we cold plunge every Saturday together. Just did a new years plunge with our friend group that is growing. My wife commented this morning that I've really 'farmed' my friend group, whereas a few years ago. I was myself very frustrated with having no real friends anymore.
FYI, my son is in a much better place.
However, the Finns in the winter did not seem to be happy at all, but mostly quite deep in seasonal depression.
- We see each other every week, almost without fail
- I suspect the invitation to a cold plunge pre-selects for people with very high openness, and those people aren’t afraid of deep friendships
- Doing something hard and a little bit scary together strengthens the bond
This can’t be underestimated. Most of my adult friends come from my trekking hobby. Everyone struggles during a trek, group dynamics form, you stay surprisingly close with the people you trekked with.
We initially wanted to do a ride in France called Paris-Brest-Paris, but never got good enough. That's a 1200km ride. Then kids happened, careers, etc. I'm too bad at time management for that kind of riding, haha.
Hats off to you!
I’ve done some long rides to be sure, but the longest I’ve ever ridden non-stop-ish is probably about 14 hours. I think riding through the night is a deal-breaker for me. I’ve never been on the road earlier than 6am, or later than 10pm.
For sure, riding at night is awful. I'm too risk-averse to do it much these days. I've got kids who depend on me to be more careful than that.
We typically left around 4am, and on some rides would finish after midnight if not riding most of the night. Those dark hours were always pleasantly low-traffic, yet I always wondered if the ratio of drunk and/or tired drivers was far worse.
I think that's really the only part I don't miss, come to think of it. Headlights at night were always unsettling.
Also watch Ghost in the Shell which is vaguely set in Hong Kong then feel the vibe when you're there.
Many people also just put you on a text messaging list when you exchange numbers. They only tell you the number to their list, but they are capable of responding individually from it
When they go somewhere, they tell the list, if you come you come, if you don't, nobody's missing you. No obligation, reply STOP to end. Otherwise you can bond at the event and meet everyone else too
My experience is, in the USA, eventually nearly every meetup is ruined by politics. Eventually someone says something unintentionally trigging someone else and then off it goes.
Other people (at least in this country) are generally emotionally messy, unwilling to tolerate people with radically different views/values, and either intellectually lacking or overly predictable in their interests. The few times I find a candidate who isn’t like this, they usually have some kind of personality disorder that makes them too unstable for long-term friendship. When I was younger I often looked past this, but there’s only so many times you are willing to let a human wrecking ball into your life.
A good book is almost always better. The life of a deep reader and casual hobbyist is rich and fulfilling if your romantic needs are satisfied at home. I do not miss my former social life at all.
Just leaving this out there for any other wayward souls who may be annoyed by the conversation.
Even many so-called “freethinkers” merely regurgitate common talking points and claim that this is somehow interesting, and they get more aggressive than “normies” if you try to branch out! I used to be able to engage in open ended conversations with people where you explore topics from all angles and adopt abhorrent positions as a way to understand the truth. Nobody seems to be comfortable with that anymore. Perhaps in the past everyone was just so drunk that they didn’t care about their inhibitions; I don’t tend to drink socially anymore and alcohol is famously a social lubricant.
That sounds very unpleasant to be around.
No hate intended towards those who feel the need to be social. If you feel like you’re missing out, the article has some good advice. But there’s nothing wrong with those of us who prefer a quiet morning walk to an average conversation.
I don't know what you're talking about. People loooove talking about how hell is other people or how they'd rather be curled up on the couch, how relieved they are when others cancel plans at the last minute.
There's literally an entire website dedicated to people with this point of view, it's called Reddit.
By not socializing, you are avoiding (to quote the linked article) a "fundamental human need." This is not something you can simply live without, just like you cannot live a good live without exercise.
The view you are espousing is fundamentally unhealthy.
Though I do think, if you extend the metaphor, that saying that socializing is a dull chore is a bit like saying exercising is a dull chore.
[1] https://www.ssmhealth.com/newsroom/blogs/ssm-health-matters/...
I organized a large (600+-person at its peak) Meetup in Park Slope, Brooklyn, NY during Meetup's hayday (2010-ish).
Meeting heaps of different people from all walks of life was interesting at first. But like a previous poster stated, connections like these are fleeting and take a lot of work to maintain (especially if you're a man, which I am; see the end of this post for more on that).
Consequently, the process of meeting people eventually became very same-y after a short while, and knowing that these conversations usually won't amount to anything other than nice, fleeting moments got old.
There was also the drama of managing "interesting" personalities in a free Meetup group. I passed the baton in 2012 or so, but that's another post for another day.
I'll conclude this post with some unsolicited advice: try to learn what people do for work without asking them directly.
EVERYONE expects this question, and it can be a conversation killer if your occupations don't intersect (less likely) or if the person you're conversing with hates their job (more likely). Everyone ALSO loves talking about themselves. Finding out how someone spends the largest part of their day without asking point-blank adds interesting twists and turns that can really liven up a conversation. It also makes you a better listener and better at asking questions.
I lied; I have more unsolicited advice. The easiest way to give a shit about what someone does for work is to ask lots of questions! Unless they hate their job, in which case, you'll want to ask questions that get them talking about what they do enjoy!
Typing that last paragraph reminded me of another reason why I got burned out on socializing with people. I'm a man. Most men only like sports and video games; two things I couldn't care less about. Socializing with other men as a man who dislikes these things is extremely difficult, especially in the US South, where I live. I blame the suburban lifestyle, but that, too, is another post for another day.
I see this a lot and it's interesting because I don't like to talk about myself much. Doubly so about work. I wonder how many of us there are.
I don't like asking about movies, music, or books because those discussions can end up being performative.
Anecdotally, I'd say women are worse when it comes to interests. It's incredibly common that they just don't have any, which isn't the end of the world, oddly enough. There might be little to discuss, but drinking some wine, going to the movies or a gallery while having a pleasant conversation - these can be fine activities. Hard to turn it into a club, but on the other hand it's basically universal.
You're looking at it wrong, or from a Mans perspective. Woman don't need the same "activities" or "hobbies" as men, these are doing thing that Men like.
Woman just need to socialize to socialize. Thats why they have book clubs, brunches and wine/art. They just need to talk.
YMMV: This is all generally speaking.
One thing that vexes me in dating women, however, is that it's hard to figure out what "type" of woman a woman is. I think men might be a bit easier to read at a glance.
I ask 'What keeps you busy?' and if people think of work then that's fine, but for those of us that don't center our lives that way there is an opportunity to discuss something else. Asking what you do for income is a more narrow and closed conversation.
It seems like there's got to be some statistical fallacy being made, like asserting "all humans need visual stimulation to survive" and then all the blind people on earth shrug at the data and realize they're not human I guess? On average it's true, "all humans" would go crazy if deprived of their sight, but it turns out some people do it just fine and can have rich, human lives.
I wonder if it's just when people live very social lives, the idea of deriving satisfaction in life internally, to be able to self regulate and maintain a health sense of identity without frequent input from others, is just too alien to consider. To not dislike people, or lack social skills, but just be as disinterested in socializing as I am in starting a coin collection. Or maybe all that is just extremely uncommon and experiences like mine are just a true rounding error.
When you have this sort of a revelation, it's difficult to hold it in. You want to shout it from the rooftops. You want to grab every single person you can find who has a life remotely like yours years ago when you were unhappy, and save them, in the same way that you yourself needed saving.
I try not to do this any more because I understand it's annoying, and the message is unlikely to successfully transmit anyways. But I suspect this is the phenomenon you are observing.
I've found a lot of those assertions about how to live a "great" life (often based on societal averages about life expectancy) don't fit my actual subjective experience, and I had to spend years doing all the "right things" in life and wondering why it wasn't fulfilling for me. Similar to the sibling comment, it's been liberating to stop taking that type of advice as applicable to me, but that means it jumps out at me everywhere now, hah.
Oh, and for what it's worth, I'm approaching my 40's, have had partners, lived with them for years, good relationship with family, never been burned or damaged socially. Those things just still never seemed as central or necessary to me as they apparently are for others.
Friends and a partner act like a small life coach. I am sure many unhealthy habits are correlated with being left entirely to your own devices. I know I would go to the doctor more if I had a partner coaching/bugging me that I go more.
We are the outliers. If everyone was wired like me, the concept of a dinner party would simply not exist and Facebook would look like this.
Your exemple is in fact good because a hella lot of people find exercice to be exactly a "dull chore". Same as eating healthy actually.
So, mentioning that socializing can be, for some people, a chore doesn't go against the fact that it is something essential.
You can even be conscious about it and still don't like it : I hate exercising but i still do it because, well, it's needed.
None of this has required much in the way of socializing, in fact excessive socializing would actively interfere with these activities.
I reject your implication that a highly social life is better than a rich, mostly solitary life. It’s different, but not better.
I don’t travel alone, I travel with my partner who is a great companion.
IRL conversation is an art, and few people are even halfway decent at it. Maybe that’s the true source of my complaint. To make an IRL conversation entertaining you need expressiveness, creativity, as well as a good variety of topics and tolerance for differences of opinion. Not many people can check all these boxes.
I understand this deeply. On the other hand, I do believe that community is essential for a good life (for 99%+ of people). It's a struggle for me, as I want community, but I've had many wrecking balls and anchors (and been them), and so I tend to be defensive.
> Other people [...] are generally emotionally messy, unwilling to tolerate people with radically different views/values, and either intellectually lacking or overly predictable in their interests.
I also feel this. But I suspect a large part of this is that defensiveness, people are meant to live in harmony with those (fairly) different from them. But especially with regard to differing values, sometimes it feels like no one around you shares the same framework. I think that's one reason people move to new places.
Social life is a bit like SEO. To get the full benefits, you needed to start on it years ago. Trying to do it just-in-time is generally a very frustrating experience. I think there's wisdom in doing casual cultivation when you don't feel you need it. It's like keeping your skills/résumé up-to-date just in case.
Does every person need to be unpredicatable and intellectually stimulating in order to spend time with them? If a friend who lives in Rotorua is interested in mountain biking (how predictable, how shallow) does that make spending time on a bike in the forest with them somehow lesser?
I do agree with your point too: perhaps emotional stimulation is also important? That can be a lot less sharp, less well-defined, but just as enriching.
It sounds like GP has very high standards for their friends, which is not the point IMO. I think we should have friends to broaden our horizons and expose us to new things. Intelligence is only one part of that.
I can attribute jumping several economic classes to the social skills I honed in high school and college. I have many friendships that are decades-plus and I had 150+ of my invited friends / family attend my wedding.
Emotionally, I do not long for new friends. It's a lot of work to maintain the relationships I have with my friends, family, wife and daughter.
I find aimless socialization these days to be laborious. I just do not give a shit.
I recently moved to NYC. I am at a point in my career where it's networking and politics that will get me ahead. I see a lot of my net-new socialization moving this direction.
I realized all of this while not having gone to the apparent extreme you have, and never stopped building new friendships, but my level of engagement in those friendships and how I felt about them did change. I don't believe you can constantly add new arbitrary friends and have them all be equally as deep or stimulating—it's not economical from a time perspective, assuming you want to be friends with yourself too and devote time to your own interests alone—but that doesn't mean you need to exempt yourself from social life altogether.
Additionally, I've found that the people I'm exposed to and can build strong relationships with are only limited by own interests and depth. I have been fairly one-dimensional at times, and thus my friends end up being people who can tolerate that one-dimensionality. If I bring political bs to every party, I'll only be invited to parties I won't kill the vibe at, it's not their fault, and likewise if all I could talk about was programming, I'd only have tech friends. Incidentally I have only two tech friends among at least 20-30 pther "strong" friends from completely unrelated backgrounds with different dispositions.
It's okay to not miss a specific type of social life, but I think it's worth reflecting more deeply on a lack of interest in any social life. Your social life should not be transactional, imho. A book won't show up to your wedding, a book will not wave at you while on your to a grocery store, and a book will not climb a mountain, go biking, or play cards with you during a rainstorm on a train. Your romantic partner might, but they can't be expected to do it all the time. I don't do any of that with all my friends either.
They're people that I've known typically for at least 2 years, I trust, and I'd be able to DM for a hangout, drink with, engage in a variety of common interests together, we can roast each other and be toxic and give each other a pass as long as it's all in good humor.
The skills and traits that make me reasonably good at that don't help me in the kinds of activities that make people boring and successful in a nostalgic middle class suburbia sense, so it has tradeoffs, and it's not always easy, but it averages out to easy. I used to be very shy, and probably wouldn't be this way if I'd stayed in my hometown where everyone just stays away from each other and knows their high school mates. I live in a relatively expensive city, don't have a car or a house, or kids, or many physical assets. I'm employed, but probably have not been for more than half of my adult life, and I rent.
Spreading myself too thin beyond that isn't really sustainable until there's a good foundation of trust built and it's not as necessary to see each other every week. Some older friends I see once a year, others I've seen 4 times this week due to holiday parties, and some are people I know in my community. Events and lots of socializing come in bursts and it can be tiring, so I'll just dip out for a while and refresh when necessary, which I'm currently looking forward to, but have a wedding and a birthday coming up in the next 3 days lol
Incidentally, I've also never once known my immediate neighbors beyond a brief few conversations.
I’ve been on both sides of this, so I’m going to put this out into the universe:
Your friends with kids still want to see you.
They have a lot to deal with suddenly. They’re exhausted.
But they miss hanging out with you, and will leap at the opportunity to hang out if you take the initiative and make some kid-friendly accommodations.
They may decline more often than before, because the kid is sick or sleeping or not sleeping so the adults just need to lay low. But don’t take that “no” as a “stop asking”.
This is (obviously?) not a fact. I’ve had a blast hanging out with a family in Peru for the last 24 hours. I also always have a great time when I visit my sister, her husband and their little kid.
Long conversations about interesting topics are one way to have fun. And you’re right, those don’t happen as much if you just take a child free couple, some parents and maybe kids and put them in the same room.
Bigger get togethers help a lot. One kid is a handful, but six kids of varying ages can actually be easier. You can also have fun in other ways like dancing, decorating or lighting fireworks (one activity from last night).
Raising kids has to be one of the most interesting things someone can do.
I like playing with kids for a while but I won't pretend it is intellectually stimulating. Sometimes you can find something new to blow their mind though.
When they get to teen years they are capable of more interesting conversations but then often don't want to hang with adults. There is a pretty limited sweet spot of ages.
That's kind of what having kids is like. I love my kids and have great times with them, but there's also a lot of routine, endless cleaning and boredom.
People with kids probably wish they could have longer conversations. They'd happily talk about things other than kids. Sometimes that's possible - but it's very hard to predict when it will happen.
It's something I've observed since having kids - quite a lot of people I have adult relationships with simply have no interest in being near them. As a result, I just don't talk to them at all any more. It's a shame, but there's not really much I can do about it.
Having kids for most people means LESS boredom, as kids are more interesting and curious and active than most adults.
Kids are generally much more interesting people to engage and interact with than adults.
But just to note that this and similar opinions in the thread confirm what I’ve experienced, both as a SINK/DINK and as a parent.
More often than not it’s the SINKs/DINKs that disappear off the face of the earth and lose interest in participating in the suddenly very different lives of their new parent friends, and not the other way around.
The opposite applies too, if you try hard enough you’ll find plenty of similarities with an Eskimo. We’re all just people in the end.
If you both have kids, then the kids may also want a chance to socialize. Meeting new people with their parent is a great opportunity to expand their social network and learn how they should act in front of friendly people.
Of course, the parent needs to be smart about it to avoid or correctly correct the negative sides, but assuming you're a good parent, a well-socialized kids will grow up differently in many better ways than a completely home-breed one.
For our entire history we used to live in tribes. One person can look after 5 children with only a small extra % of the effort it takes to look after one. Hell maybe even less effort because the kids will keep each other company, and the adult only has to make sure the kids don't kill themselves. The older kids will naturally take charge and the younger kids tend to follow their older-brother figures.
It can still be done today. Children-having adults gather, bringing their children along. The children will be happy because friends to play with. Adults will be happy because socialization + taking a break from entertaining child. You can even play DND or something.
It's so obvious, so simple, so rewarding, but we still somehow fucked it up.
That led me to quite radical thoughts, that childless people shouldn't have the same voting power as active parents, just because they simply do not and _can not_ understand the generational mechanics of society and nations survival. They just lack this critical extremum of life experience and can not contribute consciously.
If the author was able to pull 'a bunch of people' to birthday drinks with nothing but an invitation, this story is more about underestimating his social capital rather than creating new capital.
Yes, there are also many (stuck-up and immature, IMO) people who won't even consider attending an event without a look at the guest/RSVP list to see who else will be there. But I don't think that's the majority. If you set up an outing, invite 50 people, but only 10 show up, that's still a pretty great success, I think.
littlecranky, put your reply back please; it was a good one.
They can mostly only ever wish you well.
For me, the significant thing about having local community is the ability to throw stuff together last minute. Not every gathering has to have a spreadsheet of guests and canva invites and endless emails booking a band, a keg, whatever else.
A lot can and should just be "hey dudes, anything doing anything? Want to come over for a game/movie/whatever?" Those kinds of low-stakes hangouts are the real backbone of community, and they're hard to do if you don't have a friend group that's physically close by.
It is such a massive boost to quality of life to just be able on a whim to send a text like “i am tryna grab some food+drink in 15min, you down?” and actually make it happen more than half the time (and being able to receive similar texts from the friend too). Lots of spontaneous interactions and (barely-any-)planning for just normal low-pressure outings was absolutely my favorite part of that time period.
On a sidenote, I absolutely despise the “guest spreadsheet canva invites for an event scheduled a month in advance and endless emails booking a band” way of regularly doing social stuff. It is totally chill and reasonable to do so for special occasions and bigger events, but having it as the primary way of socializing makes me want to drill a hole in my skull.
I miss the arco. I miss the arco a lot.
So for me online communities can be a great thing, but they can't replace IRL communities, because the interactions make you feel different. I suspect that the social needs that evolution has imprinted on us can't just be fulfilled by online interactions, they require more senses than just hearing and seeing.
I suppose there are exceptions.
One big problem with having mostly or only online friends is that you spend all day at work in front of a computer, then if you want to spend time with your online friends you spend more time in front of a computer. It can turn into all day every day screen time.
I'm exploring in-office jobs for 2026.
Wework and other coworking spaces have mostly been a disappointment as a way to find community, with just two exceptions over the years (one of which was killed by covid).
I’m still searching.
so for me it's nice because i get to have my slow morning and go to the office during lunch break (i live relatively close).
this made me realize that i don't really mind the office (i ended up going almost every day, staying from lunch break 'till 5pm) but i loathe essentially two things:
- shitty coworkers (better to hop job at all, but avoiding them in person does help a lot)
- going to the office being mandatory (as in, not having freedom and autonomy)
in my current setup colleagues tend to autonomously organize when to meet in the office and go out for lunch together. and frankly... it's great.
the work itself has a lot of shortcomings (and i'm fixing things left and right from the first week i joined the company) but the people and the autonomy make it great.
Hundreds of people came to the funeral, even though it was short notice (24 hours) and in the middle of holiday season. They all dropped whatever they were doing, hopped in their cars or on a plane and came. Friends from his childhood. Friends from his middle/high school years. Friends from his university years, and med school years. People he had worked with and done community service with over the decades. His former students from the decades he taught at the local university. Employees at the hospital he worked at. Family friends. Friends of family. People who knew him by only name and yet still wanted to pay their respects.
I'm Turkish, and community has always played a big role in our culture. But the past few days made me realize that, ever since immigrating to the USA 20+ years ago, community had been supplanted by individualism. Like the author, I work from home. I do have a bit of a social life, and there's a couple of meetups I organize, but the size of my community is nothing compared to my parents. It makes me sad.
Reading this article gave me some hope. It reminded me that ultimately it's a matter of putting in the work, which I am determined to do. Not because I want to maximize the number of people who come to my eventual funeral or anything like that, but because I do want to live a richer life and the best way to do that is to share it with others.
Sorry if the above was all over the place. Things are still raw.
I've been trying something very similar to the author's approach for three years now: a casual tech meetup. My results are way worse despite putting hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars into the endeavor.
The people you attract might themselves have no local friends. That's why they're showing up to your meetup! But it also means that they won't help to expand it.
The people you attract might not be alcohol-drinkers. A lot of people who suggest organizing casual meetups usually have a pub in mind as the venue. Bringing 12-15 people to a restaurant takes a lot more planning. Getting 12-15 people to agree on a restaurant that meets their diet and budget needs is, well...
You might attract people who are much younger or much older than you. The average author of this kind of article is 36. Do they like the company of people who are within ±20 years of age from them? And do those people like each other's company?
Long story short, you might end up like me, having invested years of your life and a surprising amount of money, to make 3 casual acquaintances who you're sort-of-but-not-super-friendly with.
I have never had more success trying to cater to different diets, budgets, asking for opinions on restaurants. Organizing a club needs, at least at first, a near totalitarian approach. _You_ pick a nice place, hopefully decently affordable, assume e.g. that everyone will drink and if not the club soda or coke will have to do.
Eventually, the group self-optimizes for the sweet spot in things such as age gap between its members. The ones who don't like the types of places you pick, the tone of the meeting, demography, etc. will drop over time.
Some things that I've picked up last year that are a good starting point:
- timeleft dinners. I get dinner with 5 strangers every few weeks. Tons of fun and you meet a lot of interesting people.
- swing dancing: I went on a date to a social dance and immediately became addicted. It has taken a while to learn the basics, and some of the unwritten rules of the dance floor, but now this is an activity I can take with me to many of my city's social dances and meet all sorts of people. It has greatly improved my social skills and confidence.
I think the biggest different this year will be the amount of effort I put into organizing social events: I've found that everyone seems to be waiting for an invite, but no one wants to do the inviting! OP hinted at this in his article.
Of course tables are hit or miss - but learning how to carry a dead table is a fun challenge in and of itself. My city has a fairly extensive WhatsApp group for timelefters, usually all of the various tables meet up after for drinks and more socializing.
A "screwing club for men" was the scene at the Salsa dancing which I joined (with female friends). I really loved the salsa and really enjoyed everything with the rest of the learners, and with my friends. Unfortunately it took me too long to realize that the "top" men were more interested in fucking beginner women than in real socializing. Too predator vibe for me so we quit - I probably should have looked for a better group. That group was an outlier - later I've seen dancing groups with fantastic dynamics.
Dancing is amazing, and I'd recommend anyone to try it, but try to join a social group.
It looks like it would be great to travel with: I met a truly wonderful bunch of people at a LGBT friendly Tango (my AirBnB hosts took me in Argentina).
I don't necessarily need it for the social aspect (although I love meeting people), my work has me engaging with people all the time and travelling nationally and internationally 6+ times per year.
In my case, if I had to identify motivation, I would say that I have an interest in attempting to recreate the experience I had for many years as a mentor for our local FRC (high school robotics competition) at an adult level. The other motivation is this idea I have that retirement should not be a passive experience where you go from having a mission and work every day to watching TV and fishing with no purpose in life. I have seen how the latter degrades people and I have zero interest in being a part of that club. I can see a maker space potentially being a way to continue to socialize at some level (even if most of it is somewhat transactional and superficial) and keep busy physically and intellectually.
I own a lot of interesting manufacturing equipment, from multiple 3D printers all the way up to a full Haas industrial CNC vertical machining center, welding, manual machining, etc. In other words, if I contribute all of this hardware, I could start a pretty nice maker space with almost zero investment in tools.
Curious about your experience and, in particular, if there are any negative aspects that you might want to warn against.
Amongst other reflections I have:
1) a pay-check does give you a sense of validation. This took some getting through
2) it’s been challenging working out what I will actually end up doing with myself. There were periods where I put more pressure on myself to do so. I still don’t know what will do.
3) the process of doing things because they are fun takes some getting used to when one’s entire life was built around doing something useful to others
4) when one lives off of savings it’s almost easier to spend as it feels like you didn’t suffer for it. Getting depressed at work makes it easier to spend more money outside of work
5) the “number” people need to retire (or not work for extended periods) is probably less than people realise
6) not working in finance (amongst all the moral corruption everywhere) has generally made me happier in part because I can live in a way which is more in-keeping with my values over having constantly breach them for work reasons
7) owning my calendar is a big freedom. I don’t have to ask a boss if I can do something all the time. No need to explain yourself.
8) not constantly having to submit to a boss is huge. One can really grow this way, as constant repression to other people’s whims is soul crushing and shows just how close employment is to slavery (especially in finance with golden handcuffs)
I find it interesting that I've thought about the exact social mechanics of making friends before as well - low stakes in person common context where you meet on a regular basis is key.
These days I treat active IRL socialisation similar to other health-promoting activities such as physical exercise. Even when it feels like a chore, it has a benefit. It's worth maintaining that practice, too; socialising in person is a skill like any other, which you can get better at.
Maintaining a good social circle is a bit like maintaining a garden. It rewards consistent low-level effort over a long period.
It’ll be a slightly different approach to the other though. For me, I want to start playing some tabletop games (war games and/or RPGs) at my Friendly Local Game Shop. I think these types of interactions are important for community.
This gets us out of the house, gives us some time away from each other and kids, and gives us some interaction with some other people (who work for completely different companies) but are kind of like colleagues in terms of gentle office banter, water-cooler chats, etc.
I know loads of them by name, who they work for, what they do and there are occasional bonus interesting chats where some aspect of our two industries/jobs overlap slightly. There's one person who is just starting out doing something similar to a niche job I did 15 years ago, so it's great to speak to him and act as a kind of mentor.
Fully remote work is great, and I could be a happy recluse, but I'm all for more in-person interaction during the working day. Next job I think I'll go back to hybrid with 1-3 days in an office if possible.
It's more than my second space but not completely a third space. Space 2.67?
It kills me. They are so addicted to their comforts, to their security, to their home. And I get why, they have had a tremendously bad couple of years… but I just see the repeated behaviors reinforcing the issue. I get told over and over “we just need a few months where nothing bad happens” but like… dude. That’s not coming. The bad shit always happens, it’s going to continue until you die. The only way to make that worse is to self isolate and make yourself miserable constantly between those bad things.
If anyone has advice, I would super appreciate it. I’m so worried for them.
Of course, I know that from your perspective, it can be frustrating and painful, and that nobody can be expected to remain infinitely patient. I don't blame people for eventually throwing in the towel...
I wanted to focus on my health, both mental and physical, this meant going to the gym every morning and making time to read and getting rid of social media.
I also wanted to reduce my consumption of alcohol which typically was fueled by social events and always seemed to throw a wrench in taking care of my health (hard to get to the gym in the morning when you were drinking the night before, and for me it was even after just 1 drink).
What I realized was that many of the people I was spending time with, they oriented their communal time around drinking and for me that's pretty detrimental to my goals. After pulling back from social activity, I've felt so much healthier, happier and optimistic about life.
I get the same exact phone calls as you're describing, and I generally weigh the events I'm being invited to with what the focus of the event is - if the goal of the event is to just get together at a bar, I don't go. I think many of my friends feel that I've lost my way, but it's difficult because I sort of see them in the same light.
What I do hope to do eventually is to cultivate some new friendships, because I am missing that social aspect of my life, but for now I've sort of got a good thing going and I'm not too concerned about rushing it into being.
Solitude in your 30s (particularly as a DINK or SINK household) is dangerously addictive.
No need to leave the house… but it does lead one to feel disconnected more broadly over a prolonged period.
They’ll have to pry WFH out of my cold, dead hands; but I must say, the times I do travel to the office and spend a day chatting with people are incredibly energising (though also very unproductive!)
Can confirm (SINK).
The real problem is that solitude in your 30s is peaceful. So peaceful. So much so that if you built your own safety net and covered your back, solitude is so peaceful that you might end up not even wanting a romantic partner at all.
Anybody that had their fair share of storms in life can confirm that having a calm, peaceful life of solitude can be so peaceful one often doesn't really want to change that.
Great write-up and encouragement on the author's part.
This won't be an option for everyone. I have to travel for an hour each way to get to mine, but it's worth it. If I had more energy I would start one in the city where I live.
It's kind of funny to note that the negative comments here are ones calling it the Make (tm)(R) Magazine spaces and the positives are hackerspaces, as the real ones are.
By the time the maker movement collapsed, it was people grinding out crap to sell on Etsy, "hand made" on a CNC laser cutter. High school students doing the maker thing to get it on their college resume. Printing trinkets with a 3D printer. Classes for teenagers where everybody built kits. Arts and crafts at the advanced kindergarten paper folding level.
I've had the urge/idea to start a maker space in the Los Angeles area on and off for years. My motivation isn't as much as a source for social engagement as much as starting to lay out a path to retirement that will have me busy at a lower level of intensity. My work does have me engaging with thousands of people every year through trade shows and sometimes a dozen trips every year both nationally and internationally.
I own enough equipment to start a very nice maker space with nearly zero cost to outfit the place. What you and the other poster have said is, however, of concern. Have generalized maker spaces died off or turned into something unappealing?
I've had varying ideas about this over the years. I was a mentor for our local FRC (high school robotics) team for about five years. I enjoyed that very much. Yes, my kids were involved. I tried to re-enter that world and was faced with, well, stupid obstacles that very much telegraphed that, at least here, these teams have turned into unappealing political/ideological nightmares --rather than the "let's build cool robots!" feeling from the pre-pandemic era.
One thought was to create a maker space with specific focal activities. Three that come to mind are robotics, auto racing and RC flight. I wonder if that type of focus might mitigate the Etsy crowd effect you mentioned. I have nearly zero interest in having a bunch of people use my Haas CNC machines to mass produce crap for Etsy. One way to mitigate this might be to attach a cost to using the equipment for making anything to sell anywhere. For example, using a Haas VF-2 might cost $200 per hour plus consumables, etc. Not sure if that would work. You could also limit this sort of production-level work to a certain schedule and, maybe, it can only be done by or with staff. Not sure.
There are some successes. Maker Nexus in Silicon Valley pivoted to after-school activities for teens. Humanmade in San Francisco is mostly a job training center, and gets some government funding. There are some library-based maker spaces, but they're mostly basic 3D printing and crafts.
There's also pricing. Techshop started at $100/month and rose to $125 before they went bust. Humanmade is at $250. That's too high for casual users. If you raise the price too much, you mostly have customers who are there all the time, and now you don't have enough capacity. The financial numbers just didn't work out. Most of the remaining maker spaces have some degree of public financing, as part of a college or work training center.
Perhaps something like FedEx Office (formerly Kinkos). No membership. You go in and you pay to use equipment and resources. Of course, there would have to be levels of qualification someone would have to pass before being allowed to touch certain equipment. I suppose you could have classes (Solidworks, 3D printing, CNC machining, welding, etc.).
Writing that, at some level, it starts to feel complex. I say this in the context of my stated objective, which would be to stay busy at a low stress level after retirement. I am not sure that what I just described fits that model.
There's also a reality most don't want to think about. While, for the most part, dealing with the public is fun and interesting, there's always a very small percentage of people who behave badly. It's the old Tragedy of the Commons story. That's the part that none of us enjoy at all.
At TechShop, the big operational problems were tool deterioration and staff burnout. Tools tended to stabilize at the point where they're just above worn out. The drill bits and milling cutters were dull. The sandpaper on the belt sanders was worn almost smooth. The CNC mill needed a coolant change. The laser cutters had laser systems performing at about 50% of rated power, and you had to halve the feed rate. In a commercial shop, you'd fix things before they got that bad, because you're losing production. The same business logic does not apply to maker spaces.
The staff problem with TechShop was that they paid slightly above minimum wage, which is nowhere near enough to keep people with a broad range of shop skills. The big employee benefit was that you could take classes for free, so it was sort of an apprenticeship program. Over time, the staff tended to become the ones who couldn't get a job in a real shop.
Those are some of the operational problems you have to beat.
It’s draining for me to reach out to try and convince people, not sure if the social anxiety or the lack of executive functioning.
Any tips for someone that understands and wants community but struggles with the building process?
1) Do something you enjoy *and* that others in your area enjoy.
2) Look for opportunities to be a first follower: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW8amMCVAJQ
3) Build a routine. E.g., this event will happen every 2nd Tuesday of the month.WeWork bought Meetup because tons of tech Meetups used WeWork spaces to host events.
This acquisition made a lot of sense, IMO. Many companies at the time were much more employee-friendly than now and liked having their employees (who mostly worked in the office) host cool events with free food. Nearly everyone was already downtown, free pizza is free pizza, and talking about Ruby or DevOps or whatever sure as shit beat traffic. This was especially true for startups, which were in WeWork offices.
COVID lockdowns were a huge collective wet blanket atop all of that for obvious reasons.
Moreover, everyone working from home added huge inertia to what was previously a very natural chain of events. Driving downtown for events (and dealing with traffic) was/is a huge commitment, free pizza or not (which isn't really free anymore after you account for gas). Those events being in worse spaces (since event space got harder to find) didn't help.
All of this affected social Meetups too, albeit less so. You used to be able to build a calendar of the Meetups you wanted to hit in a day. If you were already at NY Tech Meetup for something, hitting up a social meetup afterwards was easy.
(WeWork sold Meetup some time back IIRC.)
I've never been to a meetup hosted at a WeWork office in the bay area, and I used to go to quite a few. Most were at company offices.
Make a list of public places that you like (bars, coffee shops, game shops, etc.) and go to them at the same time on the same day every week. You'll shortly start seeing the same people regularly, even if it's just the staff.
Then you can greet those people, introduce yourself, and talk with them. By asking questions about their day, their plans, and sharing the same about yourself, you'll open the door to expanding your social life outside of those locations, hours, and people.
Community doesn't need to be a series of planned events and invitations. It can be implicit and organic just by virtue of regularly sharing space.
Personal anecdote:
I do this with pinball. Sure, it's often in bars, but it's a great way to be at a bar without having to drink. Pinball players are happy to talk about pinball (or anything really), it provides an instant topic of conversation, and it's easy to invite another player to a game because it's such a short commitment. And if no one's around that you want to talk to, or you don't feel like focusing on socializing, you can just play the game while still maintaining your regular schedule.
If you want to try following in my exact footsteps, you can use Pinball Map[1] to find locations near you. Good luck!
Amusingly, the rec league pinball people are absolutely ferocious about promotion. Pretty much every thread in r/bayarea about looking for friends gets a pitch from a pinball person.
I think the best thing is to have a hobby or interest that has a local place where you can find other people that like it. Music is a good one, go to some shows by yourself and talk to people. Or tennis courts, a makerspace, some kind of special event, etc. You will already have something in common and something to talk about with the people there.
I wonder if Yemeni cafes would be a bit more bar-like in terms of socializing. They're usually open until midnight or later, but I think it'll be a while before they come to where I am in Iowa.
As for the pinball evangelism: I think it's because pinball is a great shortcut for making friends for introverts. The level of structure, competition, socialization, and just about everything else about it can be dialed in to each individual's liking.
If you're unattractive, you'll fail no matter what you try or how you try it.
There's a reason why success stories in this area never talk about the author being required to or benefiting from evolving their tactics.
Find a close friend for whom reaching out and convincing people is not draining, and partner with them. They do the reaching out, you take care of the logistics.
The framework that helped me understand what was going on with this is Working Genius. Reaching out falls under what they call Galvanizing, which is draining for me, but my friend is super good at it.
What I would do: 1. make a list of stuff I would do; 2. check if there are local communities for each item on the list and 3. start joining those communities or look for people interested to join you on the activities on the list. Is that simple, really.
I can understand being in the wrong contest once or twice in your life, but I’ve lived in five different cities. I’ve gone to college three times. I play multiple instruments and have played in bands and orchestras. And yet here I am: completely alone. I have no one to text for a little chat, no one to grab a beer with me on a Saturday night, no one to plan a coffee with, no one to reassure me when I’m struggling. I’m moving through life entirely on my own, rawdogging it, doing everything alone.
At this point, I’ve given up on relationships, on friendship, on love. The few people I’ve ever called friends eventually disappeared. It feels less painful to stop hoping altogether than to keep sinking my already low hope that it is actually all a misunderstanding and that someday I’ll finally find a circle of people who choose me back.
Stack stones, hang lights, collect interesting things. Or join a project where people are doing this, like Sandland: https://www.southeastiowaunion.com/life/ottumwa-native-creat...
Joining may be easier and nobody turns down a volunteer. You may have to start something new if nothing is nearby.
But beware the monkey’s paw: once the people come, you will not be able to get rid of them easily.
I actually grow up in a small town, like 4000 people in total, in Italy. It is even worse: if you're just a little bit strange and you don't form some kind of friendship while in grade school, the rest of your social life is basically determined to be over.
Second, it's weird that what you've written comes off as entirely insincere. It's like you've been assigned a high school essay to "write what a sad person sounds like."
You aren't even really talking to me at all. It's a story you're telling yourself that is actually deeply self-absorbed, maudlin, and also clearly false. I don't think you find your life pleasant, but I believe there is something you are not telling me, or yourself, about why that is. Good luck figuring that out. I don't know you at all, but I think you're capable of it.
I'm not erasing the existence of the many people you've encountered who don't like you. But what if negative experiences in your past have eroded your distress tolerance and you now cannot distinguish normal human conflict from an affront to you, personally? Or, what if you have given up on human contact because, subconsciously, you made a calculation that simulacra of human contact might be unsatisfying but, like methadone, they give you just enough to avoid the real stuff?
I don't think any of the psychological pictures I have painted are necessarily correct. But I do know that what you're telling me is BS.
But what the author did (organizing drinks) reminds me a lot of a great podcast I heard about putting together cocktail parties, and the social benefits: https://www.artofmanliness.com/people/social-skills/2-hour-c...
It's probably not for everyone, as it seems like a lot of work, and it might be too regimented for many, but I've wanted to do it for a while. Maybe this is the year.
I knew someone with the last name ‘Mason’, who would often get asked if he was a Freemason or a decent of one. Eventually he got asked so many times that he decided to join. After that it seemed like he went from not having much of a social life to going out all the time with his Freemason buddies.
Two places I’ve lived have been a short walk to an Elk lodge. If I was a member, I’d imagine that would be a good 3rd place with community. I think VFW would be another one, for veterans, which has also dropped in popularity, but was where my grandfather found his community.
Most of society has relegated fraternal orders participation to their college days. But even in college, most people I knew looked down on fraternities.
I wonder if some of the issue is that most of them require members be religious. With church attendance declining, joining a group that seems to require it is a harder sell. Church itself is also a place where community is built that a lot of people have left behind. I know several people whose entire social network seems to revolve around the church, for better or worse.
Bringing back these groups could really help a lot of people, so everyone isn’t expected do it all on their own or be lucky enough to have a friend who does it for them.
My dad has been very good about keeping up connections throughout his life which looks to be paying off now that he’s retired. But it seems like a significant amount of work that most people aren’t willing to do.
I have an old college roommate who lives less than a mile from me who I have only seen once in the last two years. I think most guys aren’t willing to pick up the phone to set something up, so simply having a place to go, where people are, tends to work out better. My friend who lives nearby is a member at the local country club, which also falls into that bucket of fraternal orders in a way. If I joined that I’d probably see him more, because we’d both have a place to regularly go. I feel weird inviting people over my house to do nothing and just hang out.
Like the author, I highly recommend _building_ rather than simply joining a community. If you’re joining an already established scene, get involved! Host events, and bring in new members, establish new norms
Over the past decade I’ve built two different communities like this, both of which meet weekly. They’ve become pretty important social outlets for all the regulars.
Unfortunately, they are both at my workplace. Which means I am tied to my employer not just professionally, but socially. This makes the prospect of changing jobs much more painful and disruptive.
To elaborate, in the US, existing groups tend to be narrow and uninteresting to me. In most places I've lived, it's basically a mix of sports/fitness groups, art groups, "tech" (i.e., programmer; traditional engineers like myself won't feel entirely welcome), social dancing, popular fiction reading group, activism, etc. I can't say that any of these genuinely interest me and/or would be a good place to meet people. At a fitness class, for example, many people aren't interested in casual conversation as far as I'm aware. And without genuine interest in the subject, it's hard to engage.
I honestly wish social clubs were a thing, and you would get introduced to people from all walks of life. Perhaps this is the reason the Internet is so polarizing: people don't intermingle much, they live in their small niches and echo chambers, and have to put real effort and go out of their way to engage with someone that has a new perspective. Algorithms entrenching us deeper within the same niches are to blame.
I enjoy socialising (sparingly), but I'm not an extrovert and herding people is not my definition of fun, yet I keep feeling I should be the one to form whatever community I and people like me would enjoy participating in. What a conundrum. It's also much easier to make and advertise a club around a topic than an open one for "interesting" people without sounding like a posh cult for elitists.
I think it's possible to get around the problem, but it would take just the right structure; there should be activities, but enough of a variety to have something for people from all walks of life. But also not too much of a variety so as not to appeal only to those interested in constantly trying new things. Perhaps a set of some baseline, fairly universal activities, with space for individual members to share their own hobbies and interests from time to time in a group setting? I don't know exactly, but it's something I've been considering for a while, and it feels like there must be an answer somewhere in there.
Could you articulate what you perceive to be a problem with all that?
There was one group I used to attend where I was definitely not as interested in the topic as others. I recall someone at the meetup said to me something along the lines of "If you don't agree with X then why are you here?" Well, I attended because I found a lot of interesting people there, and I know I wasn't the only one. Some organizers made the meetups unstructured conversation, which was great for me. Honestly, I'd just like to meet other people interested in a particular topic. Other organizers preferred meetups with more specific assigned discussion topics. I rarely cared much about the assigned topics and they made the unstructured conversation I wanted to have much more difficult or even impossible (particularly for the online meetups). I don't attend those meetups any longer in part because of the assigned topics.
Anyhow, the specific group I was referring to was LessWrong meetups in 3 different cities over a period of about a decade. As I said, I'm not quite aligned with their philosophy, but I did find a bunch of interesting people at those meetups.
1. The club/etc follows its core conceit closely, and discussions and such naturally don't branch off far
2. Connected to 1, the folks who actively engage in a club are typically very invested in the subject; when my interest is more casual, it can be difficult to connect with those more passionate
And 3., most critically, the things I am passionate about are too niche to sustain dedicated clubs anywhere but the most dense of population centers, which for a variety of reasons I have no interest in relocating to.
I would appreciate a group where a variety of unique interests is encouraged. I enjoy interacting with people who are passionate in their own ways, even when they don't necessarily line up with my own passions; I realize there are clubs and such out there which likely fit my preferences, but I have yet to find one reasonably nearby.
Um, have you actually tried? I have a "rock climbing" friends group, and it's rare that we talk rock climbing outside an actual climbing outing. Some of them are at the climbing gym 2-3x a week, some of them 1x a week, some join only once every 1-2 months. But what we do a lot is hang out just for dinner, for some hike on the weekend, going to a concert, whatnot. Climbing was really just the initial excuse to meet, by now it's only a detail we all more or less do now and then.
Maybe you are overthinking this.
They are. Elks, Knights of Columbus, etc. Not as popular with the younger crowd, but nothing is stopping you from joining or starting your own.
As for the point around feeling like you have to talk about rock climbing all day: you don't. Rock climbing is just the entry point, which allows for a shared conversation topic before you branch into other things.
That works for some people. I like the activity-based groups. Besides the sports groups, a community garden is also good.
My point being that a lot of clubs or groups, especially in fitness, don’t have a rule against talking about other stuff. In fact, most are incredibly conducive to it.
You've got gentlemen's clubs of the kind that Phileas Fogg from "Around the World in 80 Days" belonged to. They were leisure spaces where the rich could socialize with each other, dine from a wider menu than their own domestic staff could offer, access a bigger reading library, and organize group activities like automotive clubs and regattas.
Then you've got private societies like the Freemasons and the Rotary Club, which were usually segregated by gender and race, had a religious component, and offered services like mutual aid and insurance.
As for specific topics, there are many I could pick. My problem isn't a lack of interest in general, just a lack of overlap between my interests and what's available. One I think might have a decent chance of success would be a group based around information searching, both online and in the real world. Despite being an engineer, I've often found a lot of common ground with librarians. I love talking about the subject and could learn a lot about it. It's not going to become irrelevant any time soon either, even with LLMs, due to information siloing.
Are you talking about road cycling or mountain biking? My experience is definitely with the former. I think it helps that in group rides you automatically end up riding next to someone new and chatting along. Easily breaks the ice.
I'm thinking road cycling. When I was in grad school, a decade ago, I briefly participated in a student road cycling group. It was very performance oriented as I recall. I was definitely slower than them and my heavy steel commuter bike contrasted strongly with their lighter racing bikes. I talked to some of them, but not during the rides. I was older than the vast majority of them as I recall and in retrospect that might have prevented me from making friends there.
I have a childhood friend that is cycling, but he lives in the Netherlands. There people who are cycling more than daily drivers are interested in athletic performance or activism and it kind of sucks, but he got friends skiing and scuba diving, as long as there are common interests you will find some decent people to socialize with.
I feel sorry for the young 'uns that have grown up with the internet, that have been able to isolate themselves and their opinions from the real world simply by choosing to not interact physically, and block those whose opinions differ.
The main thing people have to get over is passivity. You want to see your friends? Invite a bunch of people to come out. Nowadays it takes very little time to book a restaurant.
I do this every few months. I just think of three or four other people I want to have dinner with, arrange a time, and then invite everyone else I come across. Dinner ends up being anywhere from 4 to 12 people, out of maybe 20 invites. As for who to invite, just invite your friends, and your "friend seeds".
Everyone has a few peripheral people they know, whose bio seems to fit the template of your actual friends: live near you, studied with you, worked with you. People who in all likelihood have the same values as you, except you haven't hung out together due to lack of opportunity. We all know that guy: you know his name, you know he does what you do, you don't know anything else. So you bring that seed along and you and your existing friends water the relationship.
A more modern way to not be lonely is to play an MMO. This isn't quite like real friends, but it also isn't quite the same as being lonely. The big benefit of course is that you can do this at home.
These games are all about cooperating, sharing knowledge and experience. It's not really all that different from cooking a meal together, you're just in your PJs as you're slaying a dragon. You can also end up learning a fair bit about your online friends from just hanging around. Life stories, that kind of thing, they are a basic part of friendship.
Not to mention the time sink and addiction issues with some of the MMOs.
Quite the contrary. I actually think this is really bleak. What an empty existence…
But I actually have a pretty large social circle.
That’s because I participate in volunteer/social service organizations.
I always advocate this for people who might feel “unfocused.”
There are many upsides.
What I’m personally missing is the social capital. “Just invite people to stuff” doesn’t work, because my prior in-person social network is fragmented over 3 continents and many more countries and time zones. Minting new social capital is difficult - joining social events requires an invite to a social event to meet other people to start the process.
Back in grad school, I was out making new friends. I was playing tennis 4-5 times a week. I'd invite players for post-game coffees (in the morning) and dinner (evenings) at every game. Consistency mattered. I'd ask every time. Slowly we had our regulars. Our coffee times became an institution in and of themselves.
People are busy, yes. But, people also want to be in demand. People also don't want to be rejected. And, people also don't want to be left out.
Asking around, I was exposing myself to rejection. Some folks appreciated their time being demanded. More still joined because they didn't want to be left out.
That's an upper class thing to me. Am I poor ? Or are the class definitions too vague ?
My impression is that nowadays the UK has more cheap flight options than the rest of Europe and that trains aren't as cheap as they used to be a decade ago.
words worth remembering
Turns out partying is not something that really builds bonds.
People often glorify time before social media and the Internet. But both have been a huge blessing. I went from feeling like an odd person with very superficial connections to people that didn't really share my interests IRL to having deep connections with people that do, and live on another continent for example.
If the idea of "rebooting your social circle" makes you happy, go for it. If not, that is fine too. Living in the middle of nowhere now I do not miss living in a big city, commuting and talking to hundreds of random people every day one bit.
All that is to say, please don’t feel pity for us haha. I asume the author, like me, genuinely enjoys this lifestyle.
It’s work, it doesn’t come naturally - but you get the privilege of curating who’s there.
You know you can do both right?
If you read the article the connection must be clear imho.
And I have.
You seem to be saying the equivalent of 'omg, having an exercise routine is terrible. exercise should be all about spontaneity and a healthy lifestyle'.
The two are interrelated and not exclusive. Which is my point.
This is in another article of his about not having kids. But I think just focusing on enjoyment in life is a poor human experience. Life has much more to offer that is equally interesting. Enjoyment isn't the only game in town. And the other things that life has to offer, can be fucking painful. But I'd still say it's worth it to experience.
I appreciate it that life is bitter sweet. I wouldn't exactly say that I like it, but I appreciate it (and it goes up to a point, when we're talking about really rough tragedies, yea none of that please).
I assume this person is employed, so they're probably already doing quite a lot more than just hedonistic enjoyment.
Here's where I'm coming from.
With the Leetcode stuff going on I'm doing a lot more than 40 hours per week. Nevermind I also need to learn actual tech developments outside my job.
Other than that I put 10 to 20 hours of time into personal development. I've done this since I was a teenager.
All of this feels brutal, but my life does seem to get better over time. Though, I am not at a place in my career where I want to be, but in part that's because I find it really tough to know where I want to go, so I tend to do everything. Unfortunately, being an average/above average xyz in multiple domains doesn't do much (currently in pentesting, software engineering, data engineering and being a data analyst).
WhatsApp groups.
The biggest difference in how the author approached and how I did: he did it monthly; I did it weekly. I found that made a HUGE difference in building community. If it's once a month, and people come on average 50% of the time, then you'll see these people 6 times a year. That's nice, but one of my goals was to build real, deep relationships with more people, and having a party where I speak a few minutes to each person (if you're the host, it's hard to get more than 30 minutes with one person) 6 times a year - you can't really build a real relationship. Also, once a month puts pressure on people psychologically to attend, but I wanted it low-key, "Come if you want, if not next week, or the week after - or never! It's all cool and you go live your life and you be you!" was part of the vibe I was going for, and it's easier to get that vibe when it's all the time, but the less frequent it is, the more subconscious pressure there is, and I wanted a low-key event (for example, imagine a wedding - that's very irregular, hopefully once in your life - so there's massive pressure to attend, and I wanted the precise inverse).
But my doing it weekly, made it a bit more like church/synagogue, in the best communal sense of the word: a place to go at the same time, same place every week, time to build real relationships, you always knew you'd have a place to go, etc. And because many of the people were the same week on week, it naturally led to longer, deeper conversations, both individual and group conversations.
I was also strict on a few rules. There were a few topics that were banned from being discussed ("politics, business, and sports" basically - and everyone knew going in those were banned) so that forced people to avoid those generic and tiresome topics that (politics in particular) just make unhappy. Also, I had a very strict "no cell phone" rule and I enforced putting cell phones into a box near the entrance.
It also became a HUGE success in my city. Mentioned in the media and featured in videos. Because it became known as the nexus of interesting conversations in a spot with cool energy. Many dotcom/tech superstars as well as ambassadors and other interesting and curious figures, when they were in my city for a few days for business, they'd hear that my apt was the place to be that night and they'd contact me to invite themselves.
It revolutionized my life and my social network. I'd strongly recommend everyone who is suffering from these same sorts of social challenges create their own sort of variation of this concept.
This lasted almost a decade, almost every Wednesday night from 2007 to 2016. Then... adult life happened: family, moving internationally, and... alas. I have a personal challenge these days that I should invest energy in figuring out: the best way to reboot this for me, but in the world I life in now, not only post-covid, but with kids and family life. Sometimes I think about rebooting it but in a public venue on my "date night", sometimes I think about doing a "Zoom" version of this where it's beers on Zoom, etc etc there are many possible ways to approach this challenge - but I haven't yet been inspired with the right formula for me.
There's a time and place for everything under the sun and this was a beautiful and life-changing era of my life.
If anyone is interested in creating their own version of this (particularly the OP), just drop me a line and I'm more than happy to Zoom any time with you and give you some tips. My email is morgan@westegg.com (I still love meeting people even if through email and Zoom!), and my personal website is westegg.com and I have an ancient and embarrassingly bad web page 2008 tumblr-style page about these events at: wnip.org - If the above sounded interesting, I'm always up for a brainstorm so ping me!
Between the consistent curation and Morgan’s "Kevin Bacon-style" network, I met a huge spectrum of people—both locals and world travelers.[1])
Side note: if you’re in a relationship, these nights are even better. You end up with so many fresh ideas to share with your partner from conversations they weren't part of.
Thanks for hosting, Morgan! And a special thanks to Celia for being so gracious about those late-night "extra innings"
Invitees: Interesting Guys, Hot Girls.
Exceptions Tolerated: Hot Guys, Interesting Girls.
The organizer sounds like an unpleasant person.
Your words were beautiful and I appreciate them. See my long response I just wrote, a sister comment to yours now, explaining my thinking when I wrote that joke. Your analysis is consistent with mine: the times were different than, and I made a terrible joke, that didn't stand the test of time. And due to my offensive and sometimes hurtful jokes of the past and many other life experiences, I've been going through a period of transformation, thinking as hard as I can about forgiveness while forgiving others and asking for forgiveness.
As I said to andrewl as well (and to anyone in this thread!), this thread is at its core really about making new friends as adults (weekly/monthly events being one way to do so), and I'd love to meet you and talk about this issue, how times have changed in 20 years, and anything. You can reach me at morgan@westegg.com or you can schedule a zoom here: https://westegg.com/metaphysical-beer-29-min/
Yeah, I wrote that 20 years ago, and I tried to be funny and more offensive than. I'm sorry, I was young and more uncouth; today I'd never even consider thinking-or-talking like that.
That line was meant as a joke. Some of the most frequent, prominent attendees were actually among the top female intellectuals in our city. In that sense, the joke cut both ways: the guys were mostly nerdy software developers, the girls were nerdy intellectuals, and they were generally much smarter. So the line on the webpage, which was just a silly overnight Tumblr thing I wrote 20 years ago, was really self-mockery, mocking the guys for being less intellectual than the girls. Everyone was extremely nerdy and not cool/hot by traditional standards (hence the "hot girls, intellectual guys" joke), and the idea that we'd only "tolerate" "intellectual girls" was absurd since it was mostly intellectual girls anyway, we guys were outnumbered, hahaha. The joke is bad, and yeah, sorry, my humor doesn't always land, especially decades later. (And I did warn with the web link that the page was "embarrassingly bad" - I meant not just the design but the content as well.)
Also, as brabel points out, times have changed. Back then, those sorts of jokes were common and considered funny and not offensive. I'd note that that was written 20 years ago, which is about 33% towards 1966 - the Mad Men era (20/60=0.333) - a different world in which people spoke very differently than they do now. It wasn't an overnight one day to the next transition to our new way of thinking and talking. Even remember that was the same era, around 2007, when our own beloved founder of our HN forum paulg was cancelled for making some comment that was widely considered anti-women. "The past is a different world" as they say.
I even briefly considered updating that wording (having not touched it in 20 years) worrying someone would respond like this; but I decided to leave it, as a testament to history and how we spoke then. I try not to rewrite the past with modern standards, and I own what I wrote.
Continuing my apology for my offensive joke in 2007, as I've grown and gone through my own journey of life growing up, I feel bad for offensive things I've said-and-done over the almost half-century of my lifetime. My words have hurt people. I've been going through my past and asking for forgiveness from those who I have hurt, while also forgiving those who have hurt me. My latest book is about my attempts to reflect on the meaning of forgiveness, on my asking for forgiveness, and my forgiving others. In case you're interested, it is here: https://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Forgiveness-S-Morgan-Frie...
Finally, andrewl, I'm interpreting your message as an interest in learning more about my journey and transformation, and if you'd like to talk about personal growth, forgiveness, or what the world was like in 2007 or the 90s or 80s, it would be an honor to meet you via zoom and talk to you about life, with an open mind and open heart. This threat is about making new friends, after all, and it would be an honor to meet me, I know your username from your many great comments on HN! You can always email me at morgan@westegg.com or schedule a zoom: https://westegg.com/metaphysical-beer-29-min/
What do you think the implications are regarding this post?
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-context_and_low-context_c...
Outside of linguistucs, I've seen it applied as a concept of social group inclusion and mobility. Eg. America is a low context society — if you mess up you can move across town. Other cultures that are high context, your family will be shunned for generations with no hope of success.
>> I think I’m particularly suspicious of community, because as a writer and pedantic arsehole on the internet, I value truth-seeking behaviour. I want people to think and say things that are true, not just things that they have to believe for the sake of keeping their community happy.
Unfortunately, this is what happens with every group of people.
Our individual realities are highly subjective. A group of people who are part of a community construct a shared reality that they can all accept. If you don’t contribute to the shared reality, you are treated as someone who is problematic.
As humans we are social creatures. In our evolution, we develop cognitive systems that help us thrive in social structures. One system is called the social protection system. This system gets activated when we sense tension in relationships and sends a signal of fear to the subject that they risk being separated from a social group. This fear motivates people to maintain connection. So some people are intrinsically motivated by fear to maintain their status, sometimes unconsciously.
Our self esteem comes from two things, relationships and mastery. Healthy self esteem comes from connection to people who accept you for who you are, where you feel visible and accepted with your good and bad traits.
If you have a few people in your life with this type of connection, you will have a healthy social foundation and rely less on belonging to a group.
Groups are valuable in that the human experience is complicated. The best source of information comes directly from other humans and their experiences overcoming complexity.
However, I do agree with the author where certain groups can be problematic, particularly engaging in things like tribalism.
Establishing good self esteem by keeping a few people close to you who see you and accept you as a flawed human is key. The other part is to immerse yourself in activities where you develop mastery and maintain a connection to the activities that are intrinsically motivating and satisfying without distraction from external signals.
I learned this by studying the science of self actualization, from the research done by Scott Barry Kaufman and his book Transcend. He’s a humanistic psychologist who was inspired by Abraham Maslow, one of the founders of humanistic psychology.
But does there need to be a common purpose for the community? To take the world into a specific direction, fascism, or democracy?
I had a colleague who was member of a dance club, then he had to move to another district, making it super uncomfortable to continue on a regular base - up until today they are calling him every few weeks if he can attend because lack of men
If you move somewhere, and find the same circles why are you surprised that you’re still not happy?
> also, no women
Social groups aren’t just a place for unhappy people to meet a partner. I’d look inwards first.
It sounds like his professional life or personal interests naturally being him in contact with a social circle that isn’t fulfilling socially. Doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with him.
I say, look outward! Intentionally get involved with other social circles.
I live overseas and I’m very lonely. I’ve been told to join a group or club related to my interests so I can meet new people and make friends, but I can’t. It doesn’t feel natural to me to go for friend-hunting. And I’m very tired of meaningless, superficial connections and conversations I’ve had with most of the people from my surroundings. I feel my only friends are the ones I did at school. After that period of my life, people -or even me- start to disappear.
But with my friends from school, we can be without seeing each other for years and it’s always so easy and rewarding to catch up. I wish I’ve spent more time with them before moving :,(
Given nuclear families etc. in the West, this is kinda hard as an adult. Happens automatically as a child and college student, though. My advice to you is:
1) Get a housemate or several. Better yet, join an already shared house. Forget about your preconceptions about whether you "can" live with other people or not. You aren't special, people lived together for ever.
2) Explicitly decide to work through this "doesn't feel natural to me" thing. OK, fine, it's gonna feel kind of awkward at first. By the 5th friend-hunt it won't.
In adulthood, that forcing function doesn't exist so you have to make the effort. So regardless of whether or not it "feels natural" to go "friend-hunting" (it doesn't to me either), if you don't do it, you will be without friends.
It's also worth framing it to yourself differently. Friend hunting sounds awful and fake but organising fun/activities for similarly minded people seems more positive
I'm the opposite, I don't like or want a social life, I live comfortably, but by having kids I have no other choice than to participate in a bunch of communities just as a byproduct of trying to be a good dad.
Even the communities anyone participates today were likely built around kids in a past time.
The rest of the article is just trying to overcompensate for the decision of not having children.
I did just that, and built https://wonderful.dev
It's based around jobs for devs, but right now it's just a place to chat about tech.
> And this was when I finally realised something that should have been obvious. I had a small group of close friends who were spread across the country. I had a wider group of friends and acquaintances who I’d talk to online.
> But what I lacked was a community.
The “personal brand” and track record might be getting even more important now that the bar to building something has dropped to the floor.