Needless to say we always underestimate. Or overestimate. Best case we use the underestimated task as buffer for the more complex ones.
And it has been years.
Giving estimations based on complexity would at least give a clear picture.
I honestly don’t know what the PO and TL gains with this absurd obscenity.
And he really only used them in comparison to estimates for other tasks, not to set hard deadlines for anything.
I've been in planning sessions where someone would confidently declare something would take half a day, was surprised when I suggested that it would take longer then that since they were basically saying "this'll be finished mid-afternoon today"...and was still working on it like 3 weeks later.
Time estimations, or conversations to days or other units, typically fail because if a developer says 1 day they might mean 8 focused uninterrupted development hours while someone else hears 1 calendar day so it can be done by tomorrow, regardless of if a developer spends 8 or 16 hours on it.
But still we are much better at estimating complexity
Time estimations usually tends to be overly optimistic. I don’t know why. Maybe the desire to please the PO. Or the fact that we never seem to take into account factors such as having a bad day, interruptions, context switch.
T-shirt sizes or even story points are way more effective.
The PO can later translate it to time after the team reaches certain velocity.
I have been developing software for over twenty years, I still suck at giving time estimates.
I like to think of this as 'pragmatic agile': for sure break it down into tasks in a backlog, but don't get hung up on planning it out to the Nth degree because then that becomes more waterfall and you start to lose agility.
First, people asking for estimates know they aren't going to get everything they want, and they are trying to prioritize which features to put on a roadmap based on the effort-to-business-value ratio. High impact with low effort wins over high impact high effort almost every time.
Second, there's a long tail of things that have to be coordinated in meat space as soon as possible after the software launches, but can take weeks or months to coordinate. Therefore, they need a reasonable date to pick- think ad spend, customer training, internal training, compliance paperwork etc.
"It is impossible to know" is only ever acceptable in pure science, and that is only for the outcome of the hypothesis, not the procedure of conducting the experiment.
This isn't true, just desired, and is one of the main roots of the conflict here. OF COURSE you would like to start selling in advance and then have billing start with customers the instant the "last" pr is merged. That isn't a realistic view of the software world though and pretending it is while everyone knows otherwise starts to feel like bad faith. Making software that works, then having time to deploy it, make changes from early feedback, and fix bugs is important. THEN all the other business functions should start the cant-take-back parts of their work that need to coordinate with the rest of the world. Trying to squeeze some extra days from the schedule is a business bet you can make but it would be nice if the people taking this risk were the ones who had to crunch or stay up all night or answer the page.
Trying to force complicated and creative work into a fake box just so you can make a gantt chart slightly narrower only works on people a couple times before they start to resent it. 10x that if management punishes someone when that fantasy gantt chart isn't accurate and 100x that if the one punished is the person who said "it's impossible to know" and then was forced into pretending to know instead of the person doing the forcing.
We knew that couldn't possibly be right, so we doubled the estimate and tripled the team, and ended up with 6 people for 18 months - which ended up being almost exactly right.
[1]: We were moving from a dead/dying framework and language onto a modern language and well-supported platform; I think we started out with about 1MLOC on the old system and ended up with about 700K on the rewrite.
One of the hardest problems with estimating for me is that I mostly do really new tasks that either no one wants to do because they are arduous, or no one knows how to do yet. Then I go and do them anyway. Sometimes on time, mostly not. But everybody working with me already knows, that it may be long, but I will achieve the result. And in rare instances other developers ask me how did I managed to find the bug so fast. This time I was doing something I have never before done in my life and I missed some code dependencies that needed changing when I was revieving how to do that task.
software is only tougher to estimate if incompetent people (vast majority of the industry, like 4+ million) is doing the estimating :)
> software is only tougher to estimate if incompetent people (vast majority of the industry, like 4+ million) is doing the estimating :)
No, it is tough to estimate, but not only for incompetent people. And "incompetent" can be stretched to "don't know what he's doing", which is how I operate most of the time. I don't know what really needs to be done until it's done. Main part of my work is research on what actually needs to be done, then "just" implementing it. If I waited with estimating until I know what needs to be done, I would spend 3/4 time estimating and then 1/4 with clear understanding and good schedules (example description: I will be clicking keys for 5 hours).
Tangent, but I have at least 3 friends that would've (in retrospect) been nothing short of ecstatic if their home construction had "only" slipped 6 months on a 2 year timeline.
Saying incompetence is the reason is a trivial rebuttal that ignores the central claim about complexity. It’s like saying “the reason why we don’t have a theory of everything is because we don’t have competent physicists”
You can guess what happens next, which is that around week 8 the business is getting pretty angry that their 4-week project is taking twice as much time as they thought, while the engineering team has encountered some really nasty surprises and is worried they'll have to push to 24 weeks.
Because it's not engineering at all. But even if it was, plenty of engineering projects are impossible to estimate - the ones that are doing something novel - and disliking that fact doesn't make it go away.
> Even very inaccurate estimates can be helpful for decision making if they are on the right order of magnitude
If what the business wants is an order-of-magnitude, they should ask for that; often (not always!) that's a lot easier.
There are marketing campaigns that need to be set up, users informed, manuals written. Sales people want to sell the new feature. People thinking about road maps need to know how many new features to can fit in a quarter.
Development isn't the only thing that exists.