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Comment by shubhamjain | Hacker News Reader

Could there be a worse news regarding where content production is headed? Netflix production is trash and all they care is about metrics like viewers who have watched at least x% of certain content. Cuz if they have, and they accumulate y minutes of viewing, they are unlikely to cancel. This is to the point that they are exclusively making dumbed-down content that can be good background noise while viewers scroll through Instagram feeds. They have little taste, or any motivation to bring good stories out.

HBO might not be perfect, but at least its development process still begins with the story and the enthusiasm of the showrunner.

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I prefer Netflix to Oracle-ied Paramount.

I don't want Ellisons to own more than they do. Netflix is boring, Ellisons are evil.

Anyone that thinks Netflix buying WB would be better than the Ellisons knows nothing about the media business. Look at what James Cameron said about it last week, everyone prefers the Ellisons over Netflix because Netflix actively wants to kill the theatrical and physical media businesses

"they are evil but at least they are less into streaming." I don't know.

There is no evidence that they'll remain "less into streaming" and logic suggests that they secretly are not.

With tiktok, they're now in streaming.

Further theres been directors that comment on how aggressively NFLX manages them to create lowest-common-denominator type format. One was talking about getting notes back saying "the show needs to be easy enough to follow that someone across the room washing the dishes understands whats going on.

It's why theres no subtext in shows anymore, and they hit you over the head repeatedly with obviousness.

So while TikTok leads the short form race to the bottom, I believe NFLX leads the long form version.

We have had 20 years of comic book movies and endless sequels from the major studios.

Let's not pretend that James "Avatar" Cameron is deep.

> Let's not pretend that James "Avatar" Cameron is deep.

It’s not, but it’s also now 3 films in 16 years. That’s not a lot.

I mean compare: Dune, The Last of Us, Industry, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Succession, Silicon Valley, Westworld, Eastbound & Down, Game of Thrones, Boardwalk Empire, Sopranos, Six Feet Under, Oz, etc.. to any NFLX original programming.

I don't disagree broadly (other than to fault you for not including The Wire!), but the counterpoint is: House of Cards, Queen's Gambit, Stranger Things, Dark, Ozark, Orange is the New Black, Mindhunter, Squid Game, Adolescence, Narcos, The Crown, Godless, Dept Q, etc.

I’ll take my chances with Netflix rather than an empire of media moguls.

Mainstream physical media is already dead.

I wonder how much affect this has had in the Christmas trade for the entertainment industry. Back in the early 2000s it was common to buy a comedy DVD or a TV series for a family member or friend.

Now people who own DVD / Blu-ray players are a rare breed.

Gifting streaming membership

Uh it's because the Ellison's bought CBS and put Bari Weiss in charge. That's why it's bad. Because they're bad people with the goal of ending American democracy.

> The streaming giant has surprised many in Hollywood by offering assurances that it would continue to allow Warner Bros films to enjoy wide cinematic releases.

At least that part of concern is not guaranteed

https://www.ft.com/content/1b51ca71-9a86-46f5-bdc4-cbd6831b7...

If you believe "assurances that they will let them to continue doing things that are against the parents core business" then you are a fool.

Assurances are worthless because they always are retracted after the sale is complete.

“Wide” is not “long.” There’s a recent Netflix theatrical release that hit the cinema for just long enough to qualify for Oscar consideration and then was pulled to stream only.

They’ll put Warner Bros. in every theater in the country, to no fanfare (no marketing budget), and pull them as soon as the qualifying duration is up.

James Cameron is not exactly someone without meat I. The game. Of course he makes self serving comments about whoever he thinks will make him the most money. Don’t be so naive as to think has anything do with art.

Annapurna Pictures is owned by Megan Ellison. The studio have produced Oscar nominated marquee films like Her, Zero Dark Thirty, American Hustle.

Well that settles it. Shut up and take my democracy.

Zero Dark Thirty, you say?

CIA propaganda to whitewash torture

The 2010s Black Hawk Down

That studio has produced a lot of great video games, too. But we need more variety in ownership. Not everything can be owned by conservative leaning billionaires.

> Not everything can be owned by conservative leaning billionaires.

Well, it can be, that’s the problem :-(. But it would really, really suck.

netflix buying warner would mean essentially the death of the theater business.

The theater business is already dead, it just doesn’t realize it yet.

In my opinion, here in the UK, the cinema/theatre business killed itself. Cinemas are horrible places to visit:

- they smell bad (stale junk food)

- they have oppressive lighting (mostly extremely dark but with garish turquoise and pink dazzle, accentuating the most confusing aspects of their architecture)

- the sound systems are thunderously loud (I'll be taking earplugs the next time I go to one)

- most of them are expensive

- most of them only programme big, loud, contemporary Hollywood offerings (which are simiarly horrible high contrast junk food only out to assault the audience); there's little appreciation for the art of cinema

They're like nightclubs, but without the dancing, social interaction, or resistance (a nebulous concept I'm not going into here).

You can say "this is what the market wants", but I wont't believe you. Such an argument is like saying social media (surveilled attention management) is what the market wants. The truth is much closer to "this is what the market can bear before it breaks".

There are lots of great theaters where I lived (Austin, TX) that are well maintained and have great food and drink.

My problem is other people. People can’t make it more than about 15 minutes before they check their phone and start scrolling. Or if they aren’t checking their phone they are still using the screen like a flashlight to see the menu or their food. Or they eat like a noisy animal. The worst is people with glasses of ice they chew on. Every time they raise their cup it’s basically an ice maraca followed by the sounds of them crushing ice cubes in their mouth.

Even in theaters where phones are banned (Alamo Drafthouse) they generally don’t do anything about it.

The one model I can maybe see working is one where you have a bunch of mini-theaters that seat maybe 10-20 people max. Each group gets their own theater showing what they want, timed perfectly to where they enter.

Basically renting a really kick ass home theater that happens to access to the latest releases.

Just to add to the pile: The audio/video experience is actually WORSE than a good home cinema with a UHD bluray.

Many theaters are still 1080p (and its very noticable on a large screen). Even in 4k the vast majority lack HDR.

The new Tron movie, for example, will look much better on a large home screen than it did in most theaters.

So why would I pay them to sit in a room full of jerks on their cellphones and watch it in worse quality?

I’ve mostly had pleasant experiences at my local theatre, even some memorable encounters with strangers, and find the notion of a home theatre rather depressing.

There's certainly something to be said for the social aspect. I just wish theaters would catch up with the tech.

Only something like 20-40% of theaters are 4k, and less than 1% do HDR. 4k is really important when the image is that large, and the missing HDR changes the entire vibe of some films.

Mostly agree, but I have a different complaint about the lighting... The movie theaters I go in the US don't FULLY turn the main lights off, which drives me crazy. It's 95% off, but not 100%. In addition, there's always a bit of light entering through the door, killing immersion. The only lights I accept inside a movie theater are the step lights on stairways (and certainly not cell phone screens!)

Plenty of art house type movie theatres in the UK which would suit your taste better I expect.

I've generally preferred these over the mainstream chains. The nearest Picturehouse to me closed down recently, which was a real loss as it was in a great building. I feel they didn't lean into their art house background hard enough: half the programme seemed to be the afforementioned addiction-cinema.

I feel that these spaces should be celebrating cinema: specials, all-nighters, film discussion groups/clubs in their cafes, some kind of access for local film-makers... like to actually be a part of film-as-art, rather than a part of film-for-business. Some of this goes on (I've been to a few such events), but I have a hunch that there's appetite for much more. It's just a hunch though.

Big screen TVs and home theatre also had a huge impact.

Most of the cinema experience at home (without the public).

The experience is better at home for many

I wonder if the Ellisons win either way

- any merger they propose will be greenlit by the Trump administration, giving them an advantage. The seller prefers them because the transaction is far more likely to go through.

- Netflix is interested exclusively in the assets and the studio, not in legacy assets like CNN. So Netflix is bidding for that alone. The Ellisons see themselves as recreating the Murdoch playbook. They already control CBS. Even if Netflix succeeds in buying HBO, the Ellisons can pick up CNN later and create a right wing news empire to rival Fox News.

HBO is a nice prize, especially with the prestige and popularity of its content library. But the Ellisons win no matter what.

For viewers and voters I don’t see a win here. HBO production gets Netflix-ified. Say goodbye to quality shows like The Pitt and prepare to welcome streaming-while-scrolling shows like Emily in Paris. And simultaneously you’ll have the Ellisons telling large parts of the population what they’re supposed to think.

ARGGGHHH

HBO cancelled Perry Mason, one of the better done noir detective series. That was kind of the nail in the coffin for me. I still get it free because of my AT&T subscription, but I can't argue that Netflix has really come out with anything really worth watching either - Department Q and Mindhunter are only two that I think of that were decent.

I agree that the majority of stuff on streaming services is complete garbage and nothing is really "binge worthy" like it used to be. The one thing I used to love about Netlfix was going back and watching old movies like Chinatown or To Live and Die in LA. Those are all gone now, replaced with its own produced content that I just think isn't in the same league.

If your metric is only detective stories… i guess? But if you actually compare the quality of anything recent notable from HBO it's not even close. HBO cinematography, production quality, editing, script… its all levels above Netflix. Pick anything The White Lotus, Euphoria, The Last of Us, Peacemaker. Really anything.

Netflix feels like everything is cheap. Maybe Ripley was nice but thats it?

The last Stranger Things series, of all things, is probably the single most expensive media production in history. More expensive than Marvel films, than both Avatars, than all of Games of Thrones, than Rings of Power per episode…

It even dwarfs the budgets of the biggest games ever and is roughly on the level of the upcoming GTA 6.

It’s completely mad! For a quaint small-scale mild-horror story set in the 80s. I get that it’s popular, but it would have been just as popular with 1/10 of the budget.

Exact numbers are often unknown, so I may be wrong for some of the examples above, but it’s in that order of magnitude.

But I agree that Netflix feels cheap. The Rings of Power felt remarkably cheap too. But it’s a lot more about the writing and the artistic merit than about actual production quality.

But Stranger Things also feels kinda cheap. I am not sure what is it but there is just this "movie feel" that HBO production often achieve (Apple TV does this too) but with netflix it just isn't there. Not sure why.

Thank you for mentioning Department Q and Mindhunter — these were amazing. Netflix has a lot of content some of it is actually really good.

Mindhunter was cancelled for being too expensive.

There must be more to that story. Netflix, HBO, BBC and a bunch of others keep pumping out these kinds of crime dramas exactly because they are quite conservative bets. They are extremely cheap to produce, a handful of mid-range actors on very mundane locations. They can stay as a miniseries or expand later on as wanted. And if the writing is good some of them become incredibly popular and profitable.

I mean, the last Stranger Things series, of all things, is the single most expensive production in history. More expensive than Marvel films, than both Avatars, than all of Games of Thrones, than Rings of Power per episode… It’s mad, for a quaint small-scale mild-horror story set in the 80s.

There is no way Mindhunter was simply too expensive.

Fincher shoots for very long, does a lot of takes, lights everything like a film. Likely spends a lot of time in the editing room either himself directly or tinkering with the directors that direct the other episodes.

Notice how Mindhunter didn’t “look” like other Netflix shows. The reason for that is they lit it like a movie. And that takes time and money.

I work in the industry. The reason Netflix shows look a certain way is because they are not given the time to do it differently and are shooting almost documentary style or at least much much faster than a regular “prestige” show. Now a good director DP duo can still make this look good, even though it’s hard to do 20 set ups (low budget speed) instead of 5-10 a day (high budget). But that velocity means you shoot at twice the speed. Which is huge considering film costs are people costs. Production is often the expensive segment of a show like Mindhunter.

Fincher likely wouldn’t have agreed to drop episode count or shoot them faster, so they didn’t continue.

I wonder if it’s a matter of the platforms optimizing for the wrong metrics, or whether people just stopped paying for quality.

It's hard to motivate high quality at high cost on subscription based platforms. We all pay the same price regardless of whether the content is barely palatable or great, and we all want new content frequently.

Better then to pump out a wide range of mediocracy to attract and keep as many subscribers as possible.

HBO died many years ago when ATT fired all the executives that had the taste and vision to make HBO what it was.

They probably had some half decent stuff in the pipeline, but by now, I imagine there is no influence from the HBO of yore.

To me it died when they changed acceptable series length to 6 episodes on GoT. I really miss the days of 24 episodes, split into 12 episodes runs. I dont care that you spent the income of a small nation on the 6 episodes, I prefer you spread that money on 12 or more episodes so we can get story telling again.

Today's "TV shows" are more like TV movies that where split in into 3 1 hour runs.

Those people left for Apple.

Reportedly.

Mindhunter was cancelled - too expensive.

Trash ? The Diplomat has as good a production value as any.

So does Bridgerton. Adolescence is basically a single shot marvel.

Others - Stranger Things, Money Heist, Black Doves.

Not to mention their true crime documentaries.

Warner Brothers makes quality content. I think this is an almost perfect fit.

Production is good but not great, The Diplomat is quite melodramatic going too much into soap opera territory.

Money Heist is completely a soap opera.

Not saying that those aren't good productions but they aren't on par with what HBO used to deliver (True Detective, The Wire, Sopranos, etc.), notwithstanding the leap of faiths HBO take sometimes with stuff like The Rehearsal, and How To With John Wilson.

Netflix is very much formulaic, cinematography of Netflix shows is also quite bland/generified.

Yes and I think the biggest media consumption habit in the last 5-10 years is really no one talks that much about what we are watching with friends / coworkers / on social media.

Game of Thrones feels like the last broad cultural simultaneous viewing kind of series.

Everything now is micro-niche algorithmic targeted single season shows with forgettable titles and actors.

One funny anecdote was overhearing the voice-overed NFLX shows my wife was watching in the other room and realizing they used the same handful of voice actors in a whole slew of series.

Netflix shows are forced to become soap operas because although they might have the budgets approaching prestige TV, Netflix might force lengths that push the story into the soap format.

True that and you left Succession off the list :).

Thats why I think its a good addition. Its a step up from their usual quality. They are anyways paying 72B for the company. Netflix has distribution and Warner Bros delivers quality. I think its a perfect fit. I mean imagine Warner getting acquired by Amazon and folded into prime video - that thing where search returns episode names rather than the series. That would be like Rolexes being sold at the local Walmart. There's only two homes for quality content and thats Apple TV and Netflix. Thats why I think its a good deal.

None of those are close to peak HBO content sorry.

I would agree. However, I think Kaos, Sirens, and Sweet Tooth are as good as anything I've seen on HBO.

Ripley is HBO material but its miniseries that was probably bought as it is.

Some good examples, but much of their true crime don't fit in that list. The Monster series is pretty good, but most other true crime show are extremely repetitive and spend 4 episodes telling a story that could've been a single episode.

Bridgerton is impossible for a man to watch. Adolescence started off well, but then just dragged on for a really long time and ended with a fizzle. Stranger things is okay but eleven, the female protagonist is insufferable.

Mindhunter was probably the last really good show they had. Squid game and dark winds are decent.

Maybe it depends where you are in life, but for me the last episode of Adolescence was the most impactful, perhaps due to being a parent myself (although my children are only 3 and 5).

My big takeaway of Adolescence is that it was an extraordinarily senseless thing that was done, yet had such a profoundly negative impact on so many people. It's scary that younger people who simply haven't yet matured enough to understand the impact of their decisions can do things like this which can never be undone (and I'm not just talking about the life they took).

If they get bought, Apple could be the only lead for quality content.

I like netflix content generally. I havent had issue to find something to watch. And they have a lot of good dubbing, so I use it for foreign language traing too.

maybe things have changed but Netflix has thrown mindblowing amounts at famous people like Howard and Fincher. makes me the slightly hopeful we see another production from the twisted mind of Larry David. or at least the release of his cancelled doc

I agree so much with this. And I immediately think about how I have an ongoing Netflix subscription and I have it because after having cancelled due to the complete shit trash they produce, my dad asked me about how to see the Tyson vs Jake Paul fight and it was then that I knew I was cooked.

I am a subscriber and my dad didn't like the fight but is happy to have been part of the experience of seeing it.

I want to in-principle not pay money into this trash. But "humanity" seems to like to want to witness this trash. And I and my extended family are included!

oh dear

It's so annoying that you totally _have_ to subscribe to this trash product because society is literally forcing you. I know you definitely don't like it but you feel like you have to watch it or you're wasting the money they forced you to spend.

Keep up the good fight and I hope you make it out safe.

> totally _have_ to subscribe to this trash product

For cultural context, it's enough to subscribe for one month, once or twice per year, to catch up on a few movies or episodes of popular series. If a series is good enough for longer viewing and subscription, then the product has earned its keep.

I highly recommend the website "youtube.com" there's a lot of content on there that's excellent. I am never for want of something to watch, it sort of seems like an absolute golden age of content production to me.

I'm trying to watch long form cinematic content, not a 10 minute diy video for turning my toaster into a flamethrower with three minutes of ads and "smash that like button" interspersed.

There wre a few YouTube channels I like but they are all educational where one guy talks to the camera about a thing. Is there decent fiction on YouTube? I haven't seen any.

Get adblock and sponsorblock, or just yt-dlp it and let it cut out all the cruft, watching youtube with the callouts and sponsor segements left in sucks but we have the technology to solve the problem. I would believe there's good long form fiction content, I've listened to fiction podcasts with sound effects so there's at least that. I mostly watch multiple hour long non-fiction content so there's definitely lots of long form available, but I'm not sure how much fiction there is.

I think that's more of an issue of discovery. If I wanted decent fiction, I would actually prefer Apple's catalogue of Sci-Fi shows over anything I can find on Netflix these days. While with Youtube, you can find hidden gems outside their algorithm. In fact, I'd recommend not abiding by the algorithm of any platform and seek outside sources for finding shows you'd enjoy. Each platform has the same goal to retain your attention.

The lengths vary, and the channel only recently started their own first-party content production (rather than licensed third-party content), but that being said, the sci-fi channel DUST is a longtime favorite of mine for fiction on YouTube. The quality level is consistently high, if not quite Hollywood budget.

https://www.youtube.com/@watchdust

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