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Comment by mrtesthah | Hacker News Reader

Why are people desperate enough to raid their own communities of basic infrastructure? Guaranteeing access to basic necessities like food, shelter, and healthcare would go a long long way to aligning society’s collective values and interests toward the preservation of its infrastructure.

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Why assume it's driven by desperation rather than alienation?

It doesn't take desperation to "raid [one]'s own community of basic infrastructure" -- the news shows rich and very un-desperate people doing that right in the open every day, both with and without the protection of the law.

What it does take is people just not caring about each other very much.

It would indeed be great to have a society where even the worst off could be safe and secure, but that seems orthogonal to the problem of why people take from others like this. This is not stealing bread for the day's meal.

The vast majority of this is ordinary theft, not desperation.

I've been acquainted in the past with many people who engaged in this type of crime. Perception is that it is relatively low-risk. It was mostly just a side hustle to pay for beer or drugs, people weren't doing it to put food on the table. There has been a strong underground market for stolen "scrap" metal for as long as I've been alive.

It isn't just copper or catalytic converters. Theft of agricultural irrigation piping is sporadically fashionable, for example.

Nobody in the US needs to steal for food. Let go of that stupid belief.

I struggle to understand where I stated people in the US need to steal for food.

> Why are people desperate enough to raid their own communities of basic infrastructure?

At least in Arizona, it’s a lot of meth addicts. (Friend works in the space, albeit around water versus electrical infrastructure.)

We do need to provide better services, but that's not going to solve this issue. The vast majority of people struggling to make ends meet don't stoop to destroying public infrastructure. Only the true anti-social assholes go there.

But the worse off people are the more likely some of them are to say "fuck it" and move to the criminal side.

This is the kind of attitude that gets us here. "Bad people don't deserve help or services. This is reserved for the morally pure." Or even more simply "Criminals don't deserve help. Lock em up and forget about em." We are still destroying lives over fucking weed. It's all connected.

Your unrelated rant doesn't even reflect what the previous commenter wrote.

Th US spends >$30K per year on HUD, medicaid, and food stamps for every person whose household income poverty line. The idea that this issue is somehow evidence of the need for more welfare is only possible if you don't have any idea how much we're already spending on welfare. This low-effort, blindly empathetic mindset of "oh those poor criminals" will be the death of our civilization.

These are thieves looking for a quick buck. They aren’t desperately poor.

> They aren’t desperately poor

Some of them are. The ones using “hard hats and vests to disguise themselves” and “utilizing more-professional tools, such as battery-operated saws” probably aren’t.

Addicts are known to carry around battery powered angle grinders. I'm seeing them starting at $35. Interestingly enough, bike locks that are marketed as being angle grinder proof seem to start around $300.

My state regulates selling copper and requires a license for individuals but exempts electricians lmao.

America needs to reflect on why it's unique amongst first world countries at having third world problems.

> America needs to reflect on why it's unique

When it’s unique, yes. In the case, metal theft is documented in Australia, Australia, Canada, France, Czechia, the Netherlands and the UK [1].

(To be fair, I’m not seeing any sources credibly auditing prevalence versus occurrence.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_theft#Notable_metal_thef...

Right. One instance of metal theft in any country is enough to discredit the argument. As someone who lives in Australia, I've seen it show up in the news here just once. And I've spent time in other first world countries including the US, so my opinion doesn't come from a place of ignorance.

If you search, there is a ton about it, and it's a fast growing problem.

eg https://www.premier.sa.gov.au/media-releases/news-items/crac...

I stand corrected. Australia has third-world problems.

I live in New Zealand and I see or hear of thefts in my old neighbourhood (Woolston). Yet I can't recall anything about the issue on the news.

Every bit of reliable information I've had points to Meth users (although many years ago I knew of opiate users trying to get copper).

I was recently in New Orleans and had two theft surprises (one positive, one negative:

1: walking in Gretna I noticed an aluminium ladder under a house. You don't leave them visible at home because they get stolen (I presume for metal)

2: an Uber driver pointed out the theft of Aluminium guard rails. Obviously missing at road side. Needed grinders since they were welded infrastructure. I haven't seen much of that level of theft in Christchurch yet.

As a further point of contrast between the US and Oceania, the kind of copper theft happening in the OP are disabling communications systems:

> From January to June of this year, 9,770 incidents of intentional theft or sabotage on communications networks were reported, according to the Internet & Television Association, a trade group known as NCTA. That is nearly double the number reported in the prior six-month period. The attacks disrupted service for more than eight million customers.

> The cut lines have disrupted 911 emergency calls and internet and landline services, shut down at least one school and left whole city blocks in the dark.

... and to contrast, here in Australia, the mobile networks hadn't properly QAed their production deployment and access to emergency services causing an outage for 13-hours, likely causing people to die. The response was immediately establishing an inquiry and enacting new laws within 31 days of the incident.

https://ia.acs.org.au/article/2025/-no-excuses--as-optus-upg... https://www.acma.gov.au/articles/2025-10/acma-strengthens-in... https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Sen...

In the past few years I've seen so many instances of day-light smash and grabs happening in the US in broad daylight filling my feeds. I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop – will that wave of criminality reach here? Certainly there's been an significant uptick of knife crime in Australia, people with mental health issues shooting cops and stabbing civilians, and the housing crisis is really causing problems around homelessness, but even still, Australia has nothing on the brazenness and scale of what is happening in the US. So when I say that third world problems are affecting the US, I refer to this broader situation.

I didn't do a quantative analysis (I bet neither did you), but copper theft happens everywhere:

- https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/heilbronn/t...

- https://www.ladepeche.fr/2025/11/14/info-la-depeche-explosiv...

- https://nos.nl/artikel/2591857-na-koperdiefstal-in-veenhuize...

Basically a repeat of the sibling comment, so I won't repeat my reply.

Not applicable? I explicitly called out that Wikipedia doesn’t provide any sense around frequency. The comment you’re replying to here does.

I just took them on their word.

> I didn't do a quantative analysis

And these seem like single data points, one each for 3 different countries, not really giving a sense of frequency. So I'm not sure what you mean.

> not really giving a sense of frequency

Two of their sources are from this month, all three are from this year.

So three instances in the EU for the year. I suppose that's something. All I know is I don't see people with angle grinders taking down local infrastructure in Australia. Maybe if we matched in population it would be the same? I don't know.

But I'm checked out of this argument, because I'm certain anyone who's lived in the US and, say, comes to Australia, would recognise the stark difference in social outcomes and crime levels. But why reflect on that at all? It's far easier to quibble over minutiae.

> three instances in the EU for the year

Nobody even implied coverage. You have three more examples than before.

> I'm certain anyone who's lived in the US and, say, comes to Australia

Live in America. Have come to Australia. Missing your point. You guys have your own conniptions you dial the social anger scale to 11 over. But! You’re typically better than this at presenting and refining views in response to evidence.

> refining views in response to evidence

So let me clarify. Here's something I said in a comment to you:

> I've seen it show up in the news here just once

So I'm aware that happens even here in Australia, and this has not been my argument from the start. Yes, crime still happens in first-world countries. So it's not that it also happens also outside the US, it's something else: the quality and the quantity.

Now–you should know this, and I don't mean to be condescending, but to be clear–there's a difference between relative and and absolute measures. Like for instance, there's some ~450 homicides in Australia every year. That means that every death basically makes the broadcast news segment. But then Australia only has ~27.2 million people. So to make a fair comparison to another country, that's about 1.6 homicides per 100K people (vs the 6.81 in the US)

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/usa/uni...

So talking about copper theft, the 3 data points there I can't really quantify as copper thefts per X population. I also can't qualify the difference to the daily lives of people. Many of the data points provided outside the US seems to be targeted at business places and depots, whereas the OP article which you posted talks about something much closer to home:

> The cut lines have disrupted 911 emergency calls and internet and landline services, shut down at least one school and left whole city blocks in the dark.

Do you see the point I'm trying to make here? If something so brazen and on this scale was happening in Australia, it would be nipped in the bud. I strongly believe that's because the overwhelming majority of Australians feel they have a stake in the country, and, relatively speaking, this country (for all its foibles, and all our misgivings of it) looks after us.

Not just America. People are stealing copper in very rural areas in my country; in many cases the price they get is hardly paying for the petrol to drive there. We have a whole team now in my company dedicated to repairing damage from copper theft, it's rampant.

Very different vibe to people just doing this at scale on the side of suburban streets.

Look at the comments. In the US, we aren't interested in fixing systemic issues. We know what causes crime but it's believed that punishment and retribution is the answer even though it's not at all true.

The amount of copper thieves is finite. The fact that this keeps happening means that, if anything, there isn't enough retribution.

That's one interpretation, sure.

Mind you the US already has globally record setting levels of retribution in the form of imprisonment, death penalties, broken justice system etc.

Perhaps it's worth looking at other G20 countries with lower crime rates, less economic disparity, police that carry minimal weaponry, etc. and ask how is they appear to be doing better.

> The amount of copper thieves is finite.

If that were true, we could simply wait for them to all die out and be done with the problem for good. And since that won’t work, this claim can be dismissed.

Um. Porque no los dos. I think most individuals here would sign up for some sort of systemic approach. That said, it is well within human norms to set some very visible examples to ensure there is a level of understanding of what society deems acceptable. Not that long ago, from history standpoint, some societies took very active view of making sure that stealing hands are removed. I do not advocate returning to that. I do think that an appropriate smack is appropriate.

> Guaranteeing access to basic necessities like food, shelter, and healthcare

But this would mean rich people would be less rich and have one less yacht; while currently they happily enjoy the extra yacht; copper theft isn't an issue for them because that's mostly poor people stealing from other poor people.

Is this what they call “victim blaming”? Why does it have to be society’s fault and not the people stealing the copper?

If we have litter and excrement all over the streets, do we blame ourselves instead of the people littering? Is every “this is why we can’t have nice things” situation actually our own fault? How about holding people accountable for their actions?

Unfortunately even when these people who are a drain on society get caught, they often are treated like a victim and get very light sentences (or even none at all). We see this with shoplifting too. When the consequences are virtually eliminated, this kind of crime becomes pretty lucrative. Especially if you're homeless or a drug addict, you the consequence of spending maybe a single night in jail is pretty much a non-issue. And fines given are absolutely useless because they aren't paid, and they have no assets to take to pay them.

I'm honestly a bit tired of nothing productive being done about drug addiction. And I am pretty convinced programs like safe injection sites are pushed by NGO's because they make a lot of money off them. A lot of the information suggesting they are useful is pushed by the same groups making major money off running them.

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