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Comment by 24t | Hacker News Reader

> sideloading

It's called installing. Language matters and I see no reason to concede this point in Google's favour.

I agree with the ethos but "banning installing" wouldn't have been correct here.

There should be terminology for installing from the source of your choice which doesn't carry the marginal or sinister connotations of "sideloading" though.

"Freeloading" would have been a good one but... yeah

Wouldn't it be accurate to say that you can no longer install apps on your phone, only Google can?

If we're being pedantic, the user still has to perform the final action before the install begins. I think it' more "Google has to allow you to install apps on your phone"

And they've never allowed the users to uninstall certain apps.

(interestingly the keyboard app is not among these, so my sister has uninstalled it by mistake once)

You mean "Google has to perform final action after user petitions it to install"

(not really final, Google can uninstall your apps anytime if they are deemed undesirable)

I'm not suggesting a drop-in replacement within that context, just that widening the definition of sideloading does us no favours

'installing from beyond the walled garden' would be a nice fit here imo

extramuraloading?

Installing is still the right word, you just need to use more of them:

"Installing arbitrary packages"

"Installing google-approved packages"

> but "banning installing" wouldn't have been correct here.

it would

and it would show exactly why it is absurd

But currently, the masses know it only as a button in the play store and app store.

Freestalling?

"Freely installing"?

"banning installing from anywhere but play store"

Language matters, so don't let google turn sideloading into a dirty word. It was called sideloading before Google was even founded.

My first encounter with "sideloading" I think was loading up a MP3 player with music, for some reason that was called "sideloading" by some people. In that case, "sideloading" was just transferring basically, nothing about installing.

But once Android appeared, and there was one Google-approved way of installing applications (Google Store) and one way of installing directly from .apk after enabling "Unknown Sources", then the word started to be used for the second approach.

I don't remember if it was Google who started using "sideloading" or the community itself, but regardless, "installing" would be a more understandable word for anyone to use for the processing of installing an application on your phone, as (what I recall to be) the original meaning was just transferring.

> My first encounter with "sideloading" I think was loading up a MP3 player with music, for some reason that was called "sideloading" by some people. In that case, "sideloading" was just transferring basically, nothing about installing.

Probably influenced by the original iPod, which really wanted you to sync your iPod with your iTunes library (conveniently directing you to purchase all of your music from Apple's platform). "Sideloading" referred to the few extra steps to get your computer to simply expose the iPod as a removable storage device and drag-and-drop your mp3s over that way.

It wouldn't have made sense in the context of other mp3 players, because for many of the ones I remember (like my Creative Zen Touch), that was the only way to add the mp3s. I don't think Creative even supplied a front-end media manager...or if they did, I never bothered installing it.

Well actually..

Steve Jobs himself said in his famous “Thoughts on Music” letter that was posted on the Apple home page that less than 10% of users music on iPods were bought from iTunes.

> Probably influenced by the original iPod, which really wanted you to sync your iPod with your iTunes library (conveniently directing you to purchase all of your music from Apple's platform).

iTunes (the software) came out before the iTunes (the music store) and iPods and Apple actually marketed the iMacs as “rip mix burn”.

Even before the iTunes store appeared, I always hated the over-complicated import/sync pattern.

1. "Import" your files into iTunes "library"

2. "Sync" that library with a device

My computer already has a filesystem. Why do I need to involve some application's "library"? I hate applications that insist on grafting its own "library" container on top of my already-working filesystem. My OS already allows me to copy files. Why do I need to rely on that application to copy files? Just expose the thing as a mass storage device and let me use my OS!

Because with iTunes, I could and did have regular playlists and smart playlists using conditions like ratings, last played, play count, number of times skipped (so that it would automatically be removed from a playlist if I continued to skip a song on my iPod or computer), genre, year released, etc.

You couldn’t have that metadata with just file syncing. Later when iTunes was introduced, it had to support DRM.

Later it also had podcast syncing.

I used iTunes to burn CDs before I had an iPod.

And don’t forget that Jobs being able to negotiate users being able to buy music on iTunes with DRM [1] and letting users burn them to a DRM free CD was so revolutionary that even Bill Gates was impressed.

https://9to5mac.com/2021/07/09/unearthed-email-shows-bill-ga...

[1] later Jobs argued in the same “Thoughts on Music” letter that instead of Apple licensing its DRM the record label should license DRM free music to everyone since most music was already sold as DRM free CDs and then everyone’s music could work anywhere. Only one record label took them up on the offer from day one. It wasn’t until 2009 that all of the record labels agreed.

Yeah, people in my circles and also people on the internet would refer to it as "sideloading" even though none of us were using iPods (I think this was all before the iPod actually, but my memory is a bit hazy), just copy-paste the files with explorer.exe over to the built-in MP3 player storage, people calling it "sideloading".

You can also install through the Play store. Sideloading is more specific.

Like hacking, sideloading is now a loaded & misunderstood term. It is considered as something only nerds or bad actors do.

Let's just call it alternate install.

Or "open install", correctly implying the alternative is closed.

It's bypassing the usual channel for app installations, so the term is technically fitting and the loaded meaning is also appropriate since it's mostly used by nerds (maybe too strong a word) and bad actors.

There are legitimate uses of sideloading for regular users, for example if you have solar panels that work with a Huawei app, they can't put it on the Play store because of US sanctions. But that's not Google's fault, and that does mean the app is more risky since it's not monitored by Google.

(I'm not saying sideloading is otherwise illegitimate, it's an important feature but it's not something I'd normally recommend to a non-technical user that already chose to use a phone with Google's system.)

> that does mean the app is more risky since it's not monitored by Google.

Why is Google the arbitrator of risk here ?

As a user I'm capable of assessing the risk directly or indirectly by delegating that responsibility to another store or another program a.k.a anti-virus programs, its my choice in the end.

I want Google to build software like Windows Defender and allow others to build similar software. I want the ability to chose my security provider or not have one. I don't want Google to play nanny.

> Why is Google the arbitrator of risk here ?

Because they do the monitoring and take some responsibility? I'm just comparing "install from the Play store" with "install some apk from wherever". If you bring additional context/knowledge of course it makes a difference.

Risk and responsibility are different. Monitoring, responsibility, those are just silly words with semantic games since Google's store is full of malware while F-Droid is not. Google's store is the risky one, and the words on their compliance statements are irrelevant to that fact.

I don't feel like I'm the one playing semantic games here, I'm just arguing that the term "sideloading" is a useful distinction vs "installing through the main channel" (whatever that is: could be the Play store, or F-Droid, or Huawei App Gallery).

Google's store has malware, but the point is there would be even more if Google was not monitoring the apps there. The store is less risky than getting apks from the wild web, TikTok, etc.

Sure F-Droid is safer (as you would expect from a curated store of a few thousand open source apps compared to a store with literally millions of apps). But I wouldn't call that sideloading either when it's your regular channel to get apps.

Yes because that has worked really well in the history of PCs with malware, bundleware, ransomware, etc

Just because its the channel that google would prefer you use doesn't mean its "the usual channel". What counts as "usual" is user specific. I don't even have google play installed on my Android phone.

True, I'm speaking of the situation for the crushing majority of users (outside China I guess), not for literally every user.

Sure, but if we want to chip away at that majority, we need to encourage them to think of using the play store as a choice they have. Implicitly assuming that "install" means "install from the play store" is counterproductive.

>and that does mean the app is more risky since it's not monitored by Google.

This implies the play store isn't hosting tonnes of malware right now

Yeah maybe it gives the wrong idea. It's still better than no monitoring at all.

It gets tricky with alternative stores like F-Droid. I guess if you use F-Droid as a trusted source then it shouldn't be called sideloading.

There is currently zero evidence that the "monitored" Play Store is better or safer than the open internet.

I'm curious what's your actual opinion in absence of hard data. If your grandma tells you a website gives her instructions for sideloading Candy Crush, you'd say yeah fine or advise her to go through the Play store?

it's not "alternate" install - it is install

it's google's monopolized install that needs to be called by a long name

Or manual install.

How about calling the other one "installing from the play store"? installing was there first.

Exactly. Let's invent a word for "installing from play store". Playstoring?

So we can rewrite the story to something like: Google wants to prohibit app installation on Android phones. The only way to get an app would be through playstoring.

how about "dogmatize" - I dogmatized this app from the play store.

Restricted installing

Corpoloading

Nannyloading

I can install on my Fedora laptop through dnf. I've never felt like I needed a new word to describe downloading and running an AppImage. Why would phones be different?

`adb sideload` existed as a command for installing an apk from your PC on to your phone. Sideloading was not meant to refer to installing an apk on the phone from the phone.

I knew if I read enough comments I'd finally arrive at my favorite take.

Installing an APK directly through your phone is in fact NOT sideloading.

That actually sounds like a good idea, the situation is similar with an official channel of "trusted" software for which the distributor takes some responsibility, versus whatever file you downloaded yourself. It's certainly more risky on a Debian system to install a .deb from some random website, or an AppImage, compared to a .deb from the official repositories. I guess it's the same for Fedora.

well because its not allowed to "install" from third party sources (atleast not yet)

google has control on their android ecosystem behave, same reason why its not allowed in playstation or xbox or ios

The whole selling point of Android up until now was that it allowed you to install any app you want.

The point of the above comment is that Google intentionally introduced the word "sideload" to make "installing an app on your own device which Google did not curate" sound more risky and sinister than it is, and I'm inclined to agree.

I "make" coffee on my keurig. If Keurig decides that making any single-serve coffe pods that aren't owned by the Keurig brand is now called "off-brewing," I'd dismiss it as ridiculous and continue calling it "making coffee."

We should use the language that makes sense, not the language that happens be good PR for google.

>The whole selling point of Android up until now was that it allowed you to install any app you want.

Could've fooled me. Maybe it was a thing a decade ago when android just launched, but none of the marketing pages for vaguely recent phones has that as a selling point. At best it's a meme that android proponents repeat on hn or reddit.

We're not talking about phones, we're talking about an operating system. If those companies could port IOS to their phone, they probably would. Since the OS will be mostly the same across devices, it makes sense to market a phone based on hardware differences -- like having a higher quality camera.

I've never met or talked to an android user that truly believes android is better technology or a better user experience. They all use it because of flexibility.

"The whole selling point of Android up until now was that it allowed you to install any app you want."

we can debate whether this is bad thing or good thing, it would have no ends

what matters is reality, the reality is google have the right to change it.

You've changed the subject. We were discussing whether one ought to use Google's term for it, or the term that's been used to describe this action since (I assume) the beginning of personal computing. Not whether Google is legally allowed to make the change.

My reason for bringing up the "selling point" was to bring attention to the language -- "You can install any app you want" has always been the common refrain when I see friends get into a debate about IOS vs Android. People are already using the term because it makes the most sense.

"You can install any app you want"

the asnwer is not anymore

What does that have to do with whether we should say "install" or "sideload?"

same reason like you cant sideload in ios,playstation,xbox,switch etc

sideload is illegal

I have Linux installed on my own computer. Call the police.

Calling something a right is an assertion about morality; it implies that a law to the contrary would be a violation of that right.

I do not believe an an OS vendor with an app store has a right to limit alternate distribution channels or that a government does something wrong by restricting such practices as unfair competition.

"I do not believe an an OS vendor with an app store has a right to limit alternate distribution channels or that a government does something wrong by restricting such practices as unfair competition."

but its not illegal and wrong tho???? if this is probihited then xbox,playstation,nintendo,ios etc would be fined already

unironically android is still more "open" than all of its competitor even after all of this

It might be illegal in the EU under the DMA. As I understand it, litigation involving Apple's equivalent is in progress, and the outcome may not be known for years.

Wrong in this context is an assertion about morality. I do think it's wrong in the context of consumer products for a vendor to attempt to override the wishes of the owner of the product outside of a few narrow exceptions. I would absolutely apply that to iOS, and I think the DMA didn't go far enough; Apple should have no ability to enforce notarization or charge fees to app developers if the device owner chooses otherwise.

I feel less strongly about game consoles because they're not as important as smartphones; they don't touch most aspects of life in modern society, and there are viable alternatives for their primary function, such as gaming on PCs. I don't like their business model and I don't own one.

that's what I call hypocrite

all of big tech doing it for 20+ years and suddenly google isnt allowed to do "industry standard", like what we talking about here????

I know its bad for pro-sumer which is minority but consumer would get more protection which is majority so I dismiss HN audience because they are biases vs normal people

They all should be? I've never understood why gamers just accept constant blatant anti-competitive practices, going so far as to act as if "exclusives" via DRM are a good thing rather than monopolistic product tying. e.g. it's been demonstrated that a Steam Deck is technically capable of running Switch games better than a Switch, and yet you are forced to buy a Switch in order to buy the games.

It's no longer 30 years ago when hardware was unique and quirky and programs were written in assembly specifically for the hardware. It's all the same commodity parts along with what is supposed to be illegal business practices. In a reasonable world, something like Ryujinx would be just as front-and-center as Proton as part of Valve's product features, and courts would fine companies for trying to stop their software from working on other platforms.

because steam deck is more like "PC" than a console

I know, I know everything can be a "PC" if you look close enough but hear me

people can create their own ecosystem of walled garden whenever they want

Antitrust law exists exactly to prevent companies from making their own ecosystem/walled garden that competitors cannot sell into. Product tying (forcing you to buy product B in order to buy product A) falls under that umbrella. Game console are not magical in this regard.

Yeah, thats my point

game console has been doing it for 20+ years and they are fine, apple has doing it for 10+ years and they are fine

Google wants doing it???? they are fine to do that. if you have problem then you are hypocrite

Lots of us have a problem with all of those things, and would like the government to enforce the law. I've never bought an Apple product, and the last game console I owned was a PS2 when I was a child.

damn building close source software is illegal now?????

I don't see how that's related (e.g. Android is FOSS but can use attestation for monopolization), but I do think we ought to make the law require products that contain software come with source as a consumer protection measure.

I do not get this use of the word "reality"? The reality is Ted Bundy's currently-at-large successor has the ability to shoot me with a gun. And that fact is about as relevant as what you said.

What you're doing here is resigning from a game just because of the fact there is a game, and then being condescending to other people for trying to win the game instead, as if what you're doing is something superior. This would already be very odd behaviour if this were only Monopoly or Risk, but is downright dangerous propaganda when the game is capitalism and the future of free computing is at stake.

"future of free computing is at stake."

that is what AOSP are, android remain "free"

the ecosystem around android??? remain google rights and rightfully so since google fund and develop most of it

same like apple does, microsoft does, nintendo does. nothing wrong againts that

Would you make the same distinction on a mac when installing Photoshop from the Adobe installer vs installing KeyNote from the MacStore ?

I'm not too familiar with macOS... How normal/expected is it now to install through the App Store? As mentioned in another comment, for a Linux distribution like Debian there are highly trusted official repositories, and I think using "sideloading" for other sources would make some sense.

On macos I assume most apps are installed outside of the Store, straight from the developper's site. Which would make the Store a "sideloading" channel by that token ?

On Linux you have the default package sources, but for instance adding third party sources will still integrate the same with the system, I also never heard someone call installing Go or Java "side loading", though you're getting an installer from the site you need to run on your own. Same way for building from source.

IMHO "sideloading" would not apply to any system open enough, where adding stuff from multiple sources is expected from the start.

> Which would make the Store a "sideloading" channel by that token ?

I don't think so, it's still an official channel offered by the OS maker.

> adding third party sources will still integrate the same with the system

but obviously with a higher risk of breakage since it was not tested while the official release was cooking (at least for Debian the official set of packages in stable is expected to have virtually no conflict issues, but as soon as you add third-party sources all bets are off).

> I also never heard someone call installing Go or Java "side loading"

neither have I, but I can imagine that in some contexts it could be a useful term. Like "did you sideload Go?" (implicitly asking if you got the third-party release vs installing from the official distribution repository). I'm not saying people say that, but that the term might also make sense in the Linux world.

> IMHO "sideloading" would not apply to any system open enough, where adding stuff from multiple sources is expected from the start.

Yeah if there's no sense of "main" channels that are more trusted or more stable the term doesn't make sense.

Doesn't feel like any conspiracy.. Isn't sideloading installing through adb instead of from the system itself? (by clicking on an APK or using an app Store like Xiaomi/Googled/Huawei/Fdroid)

"Side" being.. from your computer

No, on android, it always meant installing an APK directly, without a store-app. You can use ADB, but you also can just download the APK on your device and install it locally with your browser or filemanager.

Yes but fdroid is facing restrictions while adb is not

sure, google is trying to cash in. not saying theyre nice people. but the handwringing over semantics and suggesting Google has a master plan to abuse vocabular just sounds ridiculous

So you do know, they want to make profit.

You also know, what is commonly used for making profit? PR.

And they are all about changing the meaning of words, to achieve a certain effect in people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torches_of_Freedom

What exactly is ridiculous to the idea, that maybe there was a google meeting where the name was debated and the pro and cons of different names evaluated from their buisness perspective?

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