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Comment by toyg | Hacker News Reader

A one-off $10K fee per hire is chump change, compared to the alternative: if your H1-B costs 50K per year + 10K one-off, he's still much cheaper than a US-based developer who wants 60K per-year -- and that's not exactly the top going rate.

Corporations understand Marx much better than workers ever did.

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Microsoft doesn't pay that low. Here's[1] some data from 2 years back. Friend of mine got over 100k last year, they treat H1-B holders well.

[1] http://goo.gl/P0UCj

And what's the cost of a developer leaving after 6 months for better opportunities? Periodic raises are part of overall costs, and again a locked-in visa-holder is cheaper to "maintain" in that regard.

You're neglecting the salary of the employee that you hired in that, aren't you? The 60k are on top of the salary you're paying, which would typically be comparable to the US-based developer's.

Companies don't hire people on H1B to save money, but because they are starving for talent.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't understand that you referred to the employee's salary with the 50K. Are you assuming that H1B employees are payed less in general?

What? - US developer salary: 60k per year (cheap areas etc etc). Over three years: 180k. - Foreign visa: 50k per year + 10k one off. Over three years: 160k.

And of course, the foreigner is locked into the company for X years, whereas a local can piss off after three months.

Note: I say that as an Italian-born UK resident who looked into the US visa system and found it, er, suboptimal for everyone involved except corporations.

Oh, so you've looked into the H1-B system

But do you know anyone that's actually employed like that?

I know several

- None of them get payed less than their colleagues

- They are usually already at the "top of the chain", it's difficult for new/better job opportunities to show up. Inside the US it may be more difficult, surely, but they have no problem leaving the job and going elsewhere (and H1-B is a little less restrictive in swapping jobs than some work permits in Europe)

One of the main issues today is the time it takes to apply for a Green Card, some of them are in their nth H1-B renewal now with little perspective of getting a Green Card

I worked on a H1B for 9 years before getting my Green Card and I saw two types of people working on H1B - people that were adequate for their jobs for which the company did not find enough people (qualified ones not the under/overqualified) and extraordinary people with specific skills in high demand. Both class were paid reasonably well, above average salaries.

If we are using anecdotal evidence, I knew several paid less than their colleagues at my last job. And they were hired, because of that very reason, cheaper restricted labor. Its not hard for me to imagine in a country where labor force has been at odds with employers the last 30 years that employers would want to import in cheaper labor. India has been exporting cheap labor for the past 200 years, in fact its part of the Tata and Infosys business model here. Using the guise of an engineering shortage goes over a lot better than saying lets suppress wages by importing talent.

Well, if they go to work for Tata or other similar SW sweatshops, that's an issue they should have investigated before taking that job.

Today there's Glassdoor (and others) and not knowing if your salary is competitive or not should be a factor in accepting a job overseas.

Especially in SW engineering good labour != cheap labour.

So we are going to ignore the 800lb gorilla? We will ignore the fact these firms which are the largest applicants for visas are being investigated by the FBI. And conversely think that Microsoft is doing this not for cheap labor, and there is no PR spin whatsoever around the 'Engineering Shortage' topic. I couldn't buy that.

No, it's not to be ignored, if the FBI is investigating that's a start

But just don't throw away the H1-B system altogether

It is not legal to underpay H1Bs. They literally should not be able to fill those positions with Americans if they are complaining about this.

I'm curious to know which sort of rocket science Microsoft does that is not taught at US universities.

Of course they are unable to fill positions at a given salary level. It's quite hard to find tomato-pickers at slave-like wages.

I don't think you're fully informed. Sometimes it's difficult to get qualified applicants at all, at any salary level. A lot of developers are more interested in the specifics of the job, product, company etc. than the salary (once it meets a certain minimum floor); and for other jobs, the specific knowledge and experience needed is very scarce. If there are 20 people qualified for a job and 21 open positions, no salary level is going to fill all the positions.

I had a H-1B visa once upon a time, but I never moved to the US. The company wanted me to, but I preferred London to Santa Cruz. Didn't stop me working for the company remotely, paid out of their UK sales office. Now I don't know what proportion of H-1Bs are like that - a global search to fill a local position - but it's definitely non-zero.

(The reason I'm pushing back on this is because I don't want HN to be a happy home for the same sad sack of devs Slashdot hosted when I last frequented there some years ago; "dey took our jerbs" was a constant refrain any time H-1B came up.)

Oh, I dunno. American software hiring is blatantly broken. I've been there, I've seen it, submitting my resume half a dozen times to the same companies to finally get an interview and, yes, eventually, a job offer.

But the first five times being told that the company has no matches for me.

Meanwhile, the company complains it can't find engineers.

How many Comp Sci or related discipline students do the US universities graduate every year? How much is the demand? How many of those graduates are from other countries and need VISA to work?

How do you know what skills Microsoft needs and why do you assume they pay slave wages?

I could not agree with you more. It's literally part of the business model for consulting firms here.

It might not be legal, but it's easy to do.

marx is not synonymous with arithmetic (or even basic bookkeeping).

Nothing to do with that; it's about harnessing the reserve army of labour, which is practically unlimited at global scale.

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