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Comment by 12_throw_away | Hacker News Reader

In this big hardware refresh, honestly most excited about finally getting a new steam controller [1], which feels like it might finally give us a better, more extensible standard than the extremely outdated XInput protocol (which still doesn't even support motion controls)

[1] https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steamcontroller

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In my dream world, hardware enthusiasts would be constantly creating absolutely crazy game controllers with bizarre combinations of inputs that look nothing like an xbox 360 controller. There'd be a universal input protocol that would allow for self-describing gamepads with arbitrary numbers of digital buttons, analog sticks and triggers, touchpads, mouse inputs, haptics, gyro sensors, levers, sliders, wheels, etc. etc.

I realize this may not be practical, but it's kind of weird that PCs have been more or less stuck with a protocol designed for XBox 360 controllers for 2 decades now, while the locked-down console space is seeing much more experimentation and innovation around input. The original steam controller at least hinted at being sort of an open platform for this sort of thing, although it didn't really take off. Fingers crossed for the new version.

It's because the two-thumbstick, 8 face buttons, 2 shoulder and 2 trigger form factor covers so many games there's not been a real reason for super wacky controllers. They kind of hit it out of the park on the 360 design and the only real sticking point left is the exact ergonomics which mostly fall into the PS thumbstick position (both lower) vs XBox position (left high and right low).

One big reason would be that the 360 controller was when they first made it standard USB to connect, and introduced Xinput with the standard set of inputs for games to target. I expect most gamers wouldn't find it pleasant if they had to assign buttons and axis before the joypad would be active/useful, then hitting play and trying to remember what JOY_5 mapped to as used to be needed with directinput.

The number of sticks and inputs hasn't changed much since the XBox and PS1 days either though, it's not just that the 360 and XInput became a default. Outside of Nintendo's experimental time in the Wii and GameCube era it's been the default for several decades and even Nintendo has basically given up and come to the same format since about the Wii U days.

The Xbox controller doesn't even have a gyro. Xbox controller design is completely stagnant.

Gyro aiming being on all 3 console platforms would be such a huge boon, because then it could finally get implemented in every shooter. And they could start heavily nerfing the frankly ridiculous aim assist that controllers currently get.

Back buttons would be another nice one. Right now there's just 2-4 buttons too few on controllers, and it often leads to strange button mappings that either shift with context or require multi-button activations, which gets even more annoying if you have to do it during, say, a jump.

Is that something people are actually asking for? I don't think I've heard of anyone actually pushing for gyro aiming in major shooters like COD, Fortnite etc.

It's one of those things that people who haven't experienced simply wouldn't know to ask for. Wii had motion aiming but it was more of a gimmick, it wasn't until playing FPS games on the first Steam Controller that I, personally, realized how much more playable and comfortable gyro aiming made these games-- coming from mouse+keyboard, I found fine-aiming challenges on thumbsticks to be very uncomfortable.

Gyro aiming completely solves both fine aiming and tracking aim on a gamepad when paired with some kind of touch sensitive control for enabling the gyro (natural recentering).

In console FPSes they just automatically track the enemy if they're near your crosshair and call it a day-- giving everyone an aimbot instead of solving the UX issue.

I've tried Gyro aiming and could not get used to it even in games where it's the 'superior' choice like my brief daliance with Splatoon.

It takes a bit of time to get used to, and games don't necessarily do a great job explaining it. At first I preferred the stick also but eventually grew to prefer it. I'm not sure how popular it is but a fair number of games like Fortnite[1] and CoD do support it.

For most people you're better having relatively high sensitivity on the gyro and using the stick for large movements. Using human pistol aim as a metaphor it's like the stick is your arm, and the gyro is fine tune aim in your wrist.

[1]https://youtu.be/CiSS5OsNCNU

Personal experience. First: I'm not a gamer. I'm honestly bad at aiming with the mouse. (Even in my personal favourites, SC1/2, much more intensive on raw mechanics than AoE or BAR.)

I've first played Zelda BotW/TotK (which is very light on precise aiming), and I found the gyro both precise and intuitive. The game is nowhere near as fast-paced as a modern shooter, and the weakpoints are large enough to consistently crit. I enjoy the bow.

Then I've Switched to Warframe - a looter-shooter. NO auto-aim. My first attempts to aim with the thumbstick were painful and felt pointless. The default sensitivity was very low, which I imagine was supposed to help aiming, but it made many parkour moves near-impossible (the game heavily relies on both). You could always press a button to place the camera behind your back, but that was two-step, non-incremental, and wouldn't help turning up/down.

So I've cranked thumbstick sensitivity to the max - turning the camera whichever way was now easy; then committed 100% to the gyro for aiming. Honestly, I'm much more precise than I've ever been with the mouse. I can consistently land headshots (super important with incarnons), use bows / thrown / charged weapons, etc. My hit ratio is between 50-70% for most weapons.

I'd now be hesitant to aim with a mouse. Thumbstick - out. But that's just personal experience.

USB HID actually works pretty much how you describe, for instance a Physical Descriptor can contain metadata about which body part a button/control is supposed to be used with.

It's extremely complicated however (like many things USB), which is probably why everything just emulates an XBox 360 controller like you said.

It's related to XInput making that easier option on Windows, from my understanding.

Especially if you supported both XBox and Windows.

So the only complex HID game controllers are for very much enthusiast setups, which are rare enough to trip things like absurd assumptions in HID drivers in some systems (the joystick+throttle I have used to break linux HID driver because someone decided to statically allocate possible amounts of joystick buttons per device...)

I'm happy we stumbled into in a state where you can buy a controller and plug it into your computer and it'll likely work hassle-free with basically all of your games. And I think that's what most people care about, more than being able to use wacky controllers with extra buttons.

Hell, configuring my own controls for a game is one of my least favorite things to do. I haven't even played the game yet, I don't know what button should do what!

The way it is, the devs know what kind of controller everyone will likely be using, they can figure out their ideal mapping for how the buttons should be used, and we all have an easy time using our controllers.

Maybe with 10 fingers' budget, considering that at least three per side must hold the device, it's the most rational setup to allow for reaching two directional pucks and some buttons?

It looks way too chunky, just like the original Steam Controller, Steam Deck or original duke Xbox controller. Not everybody has Jack Reacher hands.

Microsoft really did it right with the XSX controller. They took the old X360 / Xone design (perfect for large and medium hands) shrunk it slightly and then added cut-outs and and angled button surfaces (perfect for medium and small hands). The Elite is similarly good, with the back buttons being elongated and thin, meaning everyone can reach them comfortably without them getting in the way.

I own a steam controller and have been using it for multiple years. It's actually really comfortable with the way it sits in my hand. Far more comfortable than whatever sony had going on with the PS4 dualsense stuff

My kids have been using the steam deck since they were 3 years old. Granted, their hands were a bit too small but the Deck is way more manageable than it appears.

You do not need big hands to use a classic steam controller, you just need to shift your grip. It's actually hard to use a steam controller with big hands. With long thumbs, the proper grip doesn't land your thumbs in the middle of the track pads.

Failing to better communicate the proper grip for the steam controller was a real fuck up on valve's part though. They should have tried to communicate it through design, making it harder to hold wrong.

I am kind of concerned about the size of the new controller, but valve seems to have decided there's no place in the market for a controller without sticks.

As someone who has big hands (not chunky, just long fingers), I find the Steam Deck sooo comfortable and satisfying to hold. I still use my Nintendo Switch from time to time, but holding it now feels like it was designed for a child (which it was!).

Maybe in size, but at least by weight, it's not bad at all.

Steam Controller weight: 292g.

Nintendo Switch 2 controller: 235g.

Sony Playstation 5 DualSense controller: 280g. DualSense Edge: 322g.

Xbox Wireless controller: 280g. Wireless Elite series 2: 345g.

SInput recently released and got supported by SDL, which plenty of games, but also Steam Input uses. So you can already use SInput in Steam Input. Better than XInput for sure.

https://docs.handheldlegend.com/s/sinput/doc/sinput-hid-prot...

I don't think Steam has ever published specs for their protocol. And without Steam, their old controller would fallback to a mouse/keyboard mode. The Linux kernel drivers (that didn't require Steam) were reverse engineered. Hori released a Steam Controller recently. Even that still had an XInput fallback switch.

I love my OG steam controller still. I can't tell if this new one has the dual stage triggers like the og (like if there's an additional click on full trigger pull).

I used that to set things like boost in rocket League and it felt super intuitive.

First thing I checked for! I feel like it's such a niche feature but also distinctive. It's actually a "necessity" for a proper Gamecube emulation experience, which has the two stage shoulder buttons.

Like you, I also used this for boost on Rocket League and it was surprisingly intuitive. You can map it to the triggers lowest threshold to emulate it but without the tactile bump to rest against it just won't work.

According to digital foundry it does have dual stage triggers

Praise Gaben. That's the one thing I've needed in any replacement Steam Controller and Valve finally did it before the last of my OG Controllers gave up the ghost.

I think the person you’re replying to has made a mistake: I looked extensively last night and there’s no mention of the Steam Controller having dual stage triggers.

However, the Steam Frame Controllers do. Seems weird they would add them on the Frame wands but not the actual controller replacing the controller that does have them.

No mention of dual stage trigger though, which was my cheat code in rocket league to have one button for accelerate and boost

Wow lol. I just posted the exact same comment, there are dozens of us! I literally cannot play rocket league without the steam controller for this reason.

Also set rotate left and right to the grip triggers (roll in aviation terms I guess).

You can set a dual-stage trigger in Steam Input binding with any controller its trigger range, its not something unique to the Steam Controller.

Sure, but having a tactile bump in the travel makes it that much easier. I can see the argument that it might seem overcomplicated or confusing to typical users though.

If we get really lucky, some gamer dev will look at the Sony DualSense driver (yes, they wrote and upstreamed an official one) and figure out a way on how to shim / expose the adaptive triggers to Steam Input bindings.

I wonder if the haptics are programmable enough to simulate that.

Steamdeck has the dual stage triggers right? (Though maybe just in software?) I'd be shocked if the new controller is less capable than that.

Hoping it's there just not mentioned.

This controller seems more like it's going for parity with the Deck, which doesn't have dual stage triggers. I wouldn't get your hopes up.

I've been using a Stadia controller with my Steam Deck OLED but finally it'll have a worthy upgrade.

I just hope they give us an option to buy a controller with the face buttons in the "Nintendo" order rather than the "Xbox" order. Like how the 8bitdo pro comes in two versions. The only console I actually still care about these days is the Switch/Switch 2, so it would be nice to not have the button placement suddenly reversed when switching between controllers.

https://www.8bitdo.com/pro2/

This doesn't help with the actual button printing, but you can set any controller to use Nintendo layout in Steam input

I'm just hoping it has a standalone "pretend it is an xbox/generic controller" mode that doesn't rely on steam, so I can bring it to friends easily.

All you need is good HID driver in OS... unless the application hardcodes expectations about XBox controller

Yeah I said xbox beacause whatever, but I'm just worried that Valve, while they are usually consumer-friendly never added a standalone gamepad mode to the controller directly and it is always reliant on Steam (and so you need to do tricks like using GlosSI[0] to use it outside).

And at the same time, if you just plug in your controller while holding the right trigger, it acts as a usb drive where you can just replace (and grab it's original) firmware, so there have been some efforts.

I at least want that from the new one, at the very least.

[0] https://github.com/Alia5/GlosSI

My understanding is that GlosSI isn't actually required for using Steam Controller, but what it does is add SteamInput, aka the whole complex rebinding layer that also handles things like custom multi-level menus etc. to games that expect X360 controller and do not cooperate with steam.

I might be wrong, but it sounds like it's handling a different area

Same here. The trackpads on the steam deck work great. Might get this for docked mode. Kinda wish a splittable controller was more common for ergonomics ( not great to be clenching your chest on a centered object like that for hours on end, similar to non-split keyboards ). Seems like split controllers are still reserved for VR and nintendo switch style systems for now…

Can't you just use joycons without a Switch or VR controllers without a headset on PC?

If Valve can push a new standard that actually takes modern input seriously and gives devs better tooling, I'd be all for it

The trackpads are a deal breaker for me

They should have put them just above the joysticks, like the PS5 controller

Better, they should have made them detachable with a magnet, similar to the Switch JoyCon's system, what a missed opportunity

> They should have put them just above the joysticks, like the PS5 controller

I don't understand how that would be in any way ergonomic. The new Steam Controller's layout has a proven track record with the Steam Deck, which is essentially identical. It allows you to play KB&M games like Alpha Centauri on the Steam Deck without any external peripherals. It would be utterly unplayable if the trackpads were in the same place as the PS5's pad, which is basically just used to open a menu or map or for gimmicky in-game gestures.

I found the original Steam Controller's trackpad placement to be just about perfect.

I wonder how this will compare to the Dual Sense; the haptics on that would be tough to give up!

Isn't the lack of extensibility kind of the point?

It forces everyone to make the same controller, so the developer knows what the user will have.

I'm really disappointed that the new controller takes AA batteries though.

Maybe more electronics should do this to avoid so much electronic waste as when the built in battery dies, it becomes junk.

i love it... I have a whole set of fujitsu/eneloop NiMH batteries

The steam controller has a rechargable battery, maybe you're thinking of the steam frame controllers?

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