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Comment by steve8918 | Hacker News Reader

From a purely competitive standpoint, this is why Google should be releasing their Google Maps app immediately, and if Apple drags their feet, they should launch a lawsuit to force them to do so.

First off, it would probably be a really good PR move for Google.

Second, if Apple dragged their feet in terms of approval and Google sued them, it might force some changed in terms of how anti-competitively the App store behaves. I could totally see the Justice Dept or FTC stepping in the way they did with Microsoft.

Lastly, if Google added their maps app, it would immediately supplant the Apple app, and a lot less people would use Apple Maps. This would give Apple less data to make their maps better, and keep them at a competitive disadvantage for years.

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I think the best strategic move for Google is to wait. They should allow the Maps issue to continue to tarnish the iPhone 5 launch for another month or two, then release their own Maps app that will capture the marketshare of iPhone power users (the people Apple actually needs who would send in problem reports). This would let the dark cloud remain over the iPhone 5 long enough to tarnish it in most peoples' minds, but not long enough to let Apple to get any substantial data improvements from it.

Actually, I now agree with this. Like I said below, they might be delaying it to hurt iPhone 5 sales, as you mentioned. This probably makes more sense from a competitive standpoint, and then using the time to build an even better app (with 3D according to the article) and then releasing it in January after the damage has been done. I guess there's only a small chance Apple will be able to make the Maps significantly better in 3 months.

I disagree. Android is a means to an end- getting control over the user's mobile experience, and extracting data from that. While the obvious preference is for everyone to be using Android, that will never happen. So an iOS Maps app will give Google advertising, as well as location tracking, etc. etc.

Very valuable.

I disagree.

PR move wise, they've already won the PR battle. Everybody who owns an iPhone 5 or everyone who has considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google (and now Android) has a superior maps offering. By offering a Google Maps app on the iPhone, it just gives customers one reason less to stick with Android.

It will be hard for Google to prove the anti-competitiveness of the App store. It would be quite interesting though - Android has the ability to use different App stores, while Apple certainly does not. It sounds unfair, but I wonder if a court feels the same way.

Pretty sure Apple will be at a disadvantage for years regardless. They've never been a data company as it is, and there's no reason to believe that they could suddenly go out and put together their own maps like Google has done. Better maps does not necessarily equate to having more usage data either.

  > Everybody who owns an iPhone 5 or everyone who has
  > considered buying an iPhone 5 now knows that Google
  > (and now Android) has a superior maps offering.

No. First of all new maps is feature of iOS6 which is no in hands of more than 50% of iOS users not feature of iPhone 5. Second, there are other places in the world where new maps app is as good or better than old one was. And we finally got turn-by-turn navigation.

  > They've never been a data company as it is

They've never been mobile phone makers before iPhone too, remember? "PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in". Let's not forget their map-related acquisitions and partnership with companies in the field.

I buy that the maps is a feature of iOS6, but remember that iOS5 doesn't run on the iPhone 5 (AFAIK). This means that the maps feature becomes part of the purchasing decision.

Would love to see the number of iPhone users in the markets where the new maps app is as good or better. I would go further and say this doesn't matter. A map application is only useful if it works all the time, and if you have the confidence that it will always work.

They had not made a phone before, but they were still a consumer hardware company. I don't think its fair to say that they can now just become a legitimate mapping company. NAVTEQ, TomTom, Google, etc, have spent hundred of thousands of man hours developing those expertise.

There's a difference between "They're not going to just walk in" before they've tried and "They're not going to just walk in" after they've tried and slipped on a banana peel. One is a prediction, the other is a statement of fact.

They've won the current PR battle, but if they build a Google Maps for iOS, they will win the next PR battle.

If Apple is reluctant to approve a Google Maps app, and Google claims that they have the app ready and waiting but Apple won't approve it, customers will be pissed. This would put even more pressure on Apple.

Google could absolutely prove anti-competitiveness of the App store, by simply releasing the app that existed on iOS5. If it's the exact same app, with no new features, Google could ask the question why it was good enough for iOS5, but not iOS6. If Apple is restricting its availability simply because Apple has their own maps app, it could definitely be shown as being anti-competitive, and if the DOJ or FTC started to investigate this, Apple would be in heaps of trouble. Apple would be stupid to risk getting a decision forced down their throats by the government, a la Microsoft.

The one thing that Google may be doing is waiting until after Thanksgiving or Christmas in order to release their new App. They might be letting the bad press over Maps could hurt sales of iPhone 5, and then releasing an app after January.

"Google could absolutely prove anti-competitiveness of the App store, by simply releasing the app that existed on iOS5"

I was under the impression that Apple was the one that wrote that app, and they just sourced all the map data from Google.

I guess I'm just failing to see what Google has to gain, and I feel that they have more to lose.

Right now they have gained a key competitive advantage in the minds of consumers. Even iPhone fanboys will have a hard time arguing that Google does not have a better maps app.

What will they have to gain by proving the App store anticompetitive? Google will not make any sort of money from the app anyways.

By releasing a Maps app for iPhone, Google will basically giving away for free what Apple had been (likely) paying them for before. How does that make sense?

Nobody knows if apple is paying them and it all seems like it was free for Apple (but would have been renegotiated in 2013). Google makes money from users using google maps, not by apple paying google to use google maps.

http://www.quora.com/How-much-does-Apple-pay-Google-to-use-t...

Even if some iPhone 5 buyers are annoyed it will be a couple of years before most of them get another phone. By that time this issue will probably be resolved. The marketing hit is to people who upgraded older devices like the 3GS. These users could be looking to buy a new phone in the next six months and Android just became slightly more attractive.

First, for a lot of countries, we're still in the return period for the iPhone 5. Second, even if they couldn't return it and are stuck with a contract, dissatisfied iPhone 5 owners can still sell their almost brand new phone and get something else (and that wouldn't be good for the iPhone 5 or iOS in the long run).

People really love their iPhones. I find is barely believable that a large number of people will change that based on maps alone.

I see this a few times on here about DOJ or FTC stepping on to Apple like Microsoft, and I think it's pretty off base.

In order for that to happen a few things need to occur. First, the government needs to prove that Apple has a monopoly. Here are some numbers from NPD on smartphone marketshare domestically: https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/press-releases/pr...

Apple: 31 percent Samsung: 24 percent HTC: 15 percent Motorola: 12 percent LG: 6 percent

So right there, it's a tough case to make that Apple has a dominant market monopoly as compared to Microsoft in 1998.

Here's a CNET article I found quickly from 1999, one year-ish after the DOJ brought their case: http://news.cnet.com/Windows-95-remains-most-popular-operati...

Windows 95 57.4 Windows 98 17.2 Windows NT 11 Mac OS 5 DOS 3.8 Linux 2.1 Windows 3.11 1.1 Unix .8 OS/2 .5 Others 1

So at that time Windows accounted for roughly: 87% of the market! And then beyond the government determining they had a monopoly, they had to show that Microsoft was abusing it's monopoly in anticompetitive ways. They concluded they were through agreements with OEMs and others to keep other software off the machines. Basically OEMs would install Windows and IE, and not make deals to install Netscape or other software. And part of that decision also had to do with the fact that in 1998-2000 as broadband was nascent in much of the country, getting new software wasn't exactly as easy as a 5 minute or less download.

And even still there are legitimate criticisms of the US DOJ case against Microsoft.

Finally though, it doesn't seem to me that this could be done by DOJ/FTC at all. Apple doesn't have a market monopoly. Since it is a device that they produce hardware and software for, and have from the beginning asserted full control over the app store, and other market alternatives (often cheaper) readily exist, I wouldn't expect any action.

I didn't make a comment on previous behavior of Apple, or whether or not Apple has a monopoly. I was saying that Google could force Apple's hand in terms of how they behave in approving or rejecting apps, if Apple acts in an anti-competitive way with respect to a Google Maps app. If Apple doesn't play it right, it could draw the ire of the DoJ or FTC, which they definitely do not want.

If they don't allow a Google Maps app on the iPhone App Store, or if they drag their heels in approving the app, especially given all the outrage from the customers, I believe this is clearly anti-competitive behavior.

Once Google has one available, if Apple doesn't readily approve it, I think a very, very strong case could be made that they are holding back Google's app in order to help their App gain traction. Since only Apple has the power to approve or reject apps from the App Store, if that isn't the definition of anti-competitive, I don't know what is.

Right - but my point is that simple anti-competitive behavior is not necessarily running afoul here.

IT would be anti-competitive, but for the FTC to be involved the case needs to include monopoly abuse or stopping hard-driving competition. Since Google is available through Android and other competitors, and is not blocked from the web-browser, I don't think a legal case can be made. But would love opinions as to why that might not be the case.

EDIT: At least in the United States, perhaps in other jurisdictions it could be an issue?

There's a more important gamble in play at the moment:

Maps are not Siri, they're not a shiny aluminum cover or impressively slim industrial design: they are one of the core features that people own smartphones for. Would you really get a smartphone that had totally broken maps?

So there's a race: how much can Google steal Apple's thunder before Apple can build a reasonably competitive maps application? I suspect Google is considering how much permanent damage they can score to Apple's marketshare through this debacle.

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