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Comment by conductr | Hacker News Reader

Is voting there a one day only event? If not, I feel the solution to that particular problem is quite clear. There’s a million things that could go wrong causing you to miss something when you try to do it in a narrow time range (today after work before polls close)

If it’s a multi day event, it’s probably that way for a reason. Partially the same as the solution to above.

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In europe, voting typically happens in one day, where everyone physically goes to their designated voting place and puts papers in a transparent box. You can stay there and wait for the count at the end of the day if you want to. Tom Scott has a very good video about why we don't want electronic/mail voting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x6oaDmI

Electronic voting and mail voting are very different things though.

They both share the fact that you don't see your vote enter a ballot box.

Well "mail in voting" in Washington state pretty much means you drop off your ballot in a drop box in your neighborhood. Which is pretty much the same thing as putting it in a ballot box.

How is that the same?

The description of voting in the Netherlands is that you can see your ballot physically go into a clear box and stay to see that exact box be opened and all ballots tallied.

Dropping a ballot in a box in tour neighborhood helps ensure nothing with regards to the actually ballot count.

Here in NZ when I've been to vote, there are usually a couple of party affiliates at the voting location, doing what one of the parent posts described:

> You can stay there and wait for the count at the end of the day if you want to.

And if you watch the election night news, you'll see footage of multiple people counting the votes from the ballot boxes, again with various people observing to check that nothing dodgy is going on.

Having everyone just put their ballots in a postbox seems like a good way remove public trust from the electoral system, because noone's standing around waiting for the postie to collect the mail, or looking at what happens in the mail truck, or the rest of the mail distribution process.

I'm sure I've seen reports in the US of people burning postboxes around election time. Things like this give more excuses to treat election results as illegitimate, which I believe has been an issue over there.

(Yes, we do also have advanced voting in NZ, but I think they're considered "special votes" and are counted separately .. the elections are largely determined on the day by in-person votes, with the special votes being confirmed some days later)

> I'm sure I've seen reports in the US of people burning postboxes around election time

Yeah that happened once in OR then got re-plastered all over the news dozens of times. I'm sure you can find way more incidents of intimidation, fighting, long lines and other issues for in-person voting. But individual incidents does not mean that there is anything wrong with a system that has worked for decades in multiple states.

In Sweden, mail/early votes get sent through the postal system to the official ballot box for those votes. In 2018, a local election had to be redone because the post delivered votes late. Mail delivery occasionally have packaged delayed or lost, and votes are note immune to this problem. In one case the post also gave the votes to an unauthorized person, through the votes did end up at the right place.

It is a small but distinct difference between mail/early voting and putting the votes directly into the ballot box.

One of these things is much easier to burn or otherwise tamper with.

You should research what’s inside the boxes in Oregon before just assuming they’re easier to tamper with.

Doesn't look difficult: https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/ballot-box-fires (yes, that's in Oregon)

I’m not sure what’s so special in Oregon’s ballot boxes. But, tampering that is detected (don’t need much special to detect a burning box I guess!) is not a complete failure for a system. If any elections were close enough for a box to matter, they could have rerun them.

In Washington you can track your ballot return status: https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/data-research/ballot-status...

With proper mail voting you have a way to verify that your mailed in vote is counted.

(AI generated explanation) How the double-envelope system works

Inner “secrecy” envelope

You mark your ballot, fold it, and slip it into an unmarked inner envelope. No name or identifying info is on this envelope, so your choices stay anonymous. Outer declaration envelope

The inner envelope goes inside a larger outer envelope that carries: – A ballot ID/barcode unique to you. – A signature line that must match the one on file with your election office. In many states, a detachable privacy flap or perforated strip hides the signature until election officials open the outer envelope, keeping the ballot secret.

I mail in to Florida and I can log in and see that they received it and it was counted. So, close to seeing it enter the box.

That doesn't seem at all like the same thing as literally seeing the ballot enter the box in the presence of observers from all parties.

There's so much more you have to trust.

Even with ballot boxes you still need to trust what happens after ballot enters the box.

Is it possible to trace your own vote after? There has to be a technical solution to ensure that your own vote was counted

yes there is. Check double envelope mail in voting mechanics.

That's just that they got my ballot. How to ensure they allocated my specific vote to the specific candidate/measure.

In India we have electronic voting and we get to see our vote going in the ballot box.

You can see electrons or what do you mean?

It could be possible to have a system like:

If you wish, you can write a phrase on your ballot. The phrases and their corresponding vote are broadcast (on tv, internet, etc). So if you want to validate that your vote was tallied correctly, write a unique phrase. Or you could pick a random 30 digit number, collisions should be zero-probability, right?

I mean, this would be annoying because people would write slurs and advertisements, and the government would have to broadcast them. But, it seems pretty robust.

I’d suggest the state handle the number issuing, but then they could record who they issues which numbers to, and the winning party could go about rounding up their opposition, etc.

Voting systems require that there be no way to prove that you voted a certain way, otherwise it opens the market for vote-selling.

Hmm, good point.

Googling around a bit, it sounds like there are systems that let you verify that your ballot made it, but not necessarily that it was counted correctly. (For this reason, I guess?)

Seeing your ballot drop in a box is no indicator the vote is actually recorded in the grand tally, or what was recorded for your vote.

My county lets you look up if it was received. You can vote on Election Day in person if they don’t.

You have to trust that whole system. Maybe you do, I don't know the details of how any of that works.

When I vote in person, I know all the officials there from various parties are just like...looking at the box for the whole day to make sure everything is counted. It's much easier to understand and trust.

My county sends me a text message when they've counted my ballot.

My point is, you don't actually know that.

Sure you got a notification! That doesn't mean anything. Even with human counted ballots or electronic ballots.

Following the chain of custody from vote to verification, in some way, would be nice.

In Italy we typically vote for two days, usually Sunday and Monday or Saturday and Sunday.

Many countries in Europe have advance voting.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of an EU country that does not have some form of advance voting.

Here in Latvia the "election day" is usually (always?) on weekend, but the polling stations are open for some (and different!) part of every weekday leading up. Something like couple hours on monday morning, couple hours on tuesday evening, couple around midday wednesday, etc. In my opinion, it's a great system. You have to have a pretty convoluted schedule for at least one window not to line up for you.

Germany has mail-in voting, not sure if that counts as advanced voting though

Ireland doesn't have it.

That's not true (as somebody who had to do this last year in 2024 because I was traveling in another country for work on election day)

Here is the form to register for postal voting in the Republic of Ireland - https://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/2024-01/pv4-wo...

Instructions on how to submit the form / register for mail-in votes is on page 4.

Hope that helps anyone else out who needs in Ireland

I think they meant "don't have it" as in except in special circumstances, and that form says:

> You may use this form to apply for a postal vote if, due to the circumstances of your work/service or your full-time study in the State, you cannot go to your polling station on polling day.

Which seems to indicate that's only for people who can't go to the polling station, otherwise you do have to go there.

I think that a lot of Ireland's voting practices come from having a small population but a huge diaspora. I imagine the percentage of people living outside Ireland what would be eligible to vote in many other countries is significant enough to effect elections, certainly if they are close.

As someone who spent the first 30 years of my life in Ireland but is now part of that diaspora, it's frustrating but I get it. I don't get to vote, but neither do thousands of plastic paddys who have very little genuine connection to Ireland.

That said, I'm sure they could expand the voting window to a couple of days at least without too much issue.

Italy has mail-in vote only for citizen residing abroad. The rest vote on the election Sunday (and Monday morning in some cases, at least in the past).

Europe, expect in the middle of it in Switzerland where at least I know nobody that actually goes to the voting place. We do it by mail.

UK is a one day affair with voting booths typically open like 6 am to 10 pm

With the option to do a postal vote, or vote-by-proxy.

We do mail voting from embassies or consulates when abroad.

Voting seems like one of the few problems that blockchain is actually the solution for.

Nope. Blockchain has no anonymity.

You don't have to attribute any name to the transaction, just a voting booth ID and the vote. The actual benefit is just that it is hard to tamper and easy to trace where tampering happened.

But I still prefer the paper vote and I usually a blockchain apathetic.

Monero demonstrates a solution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_signature)

wouldn't that be a feature in this case?

Anonymous voting means that you can't sell your vote. Like, if I pay you $5 to vote for X, but I can't actually verify that you voted for X and not Y, then I wouldn't bother trying. Or if I'm your boss and I want you to vote for X... etc.

Not really. Your ballot should be secret, which goes against blockchain, I guess.

The blockchain doesn't require your ID, just the voting station ID.

Any id can be correlated.

If India can have voters vote and tally all the votes in one day, then so can everyone else. It’s the best way to avoid fraud and people going with whoever is ahead. I am sympathetic with emergency protocols for deadly pandemics, but for all else, in-person on a given day.

> If India can have voters vote and tally all the votes in one day, then so can everyone else.

In most countries, in the elections you vote or the member of parliament you want. Presidential elections, and city council elections are held separately, but are also equally simple. But in one election you cast your vote for one person, and that's it.

With this kind of elections, many countries manage to hold the elections on paper ballots, count them all by hand, and publish results by midnight.

But on an American ballot, you vote for, for example:

    - US president
    - US senator  
    - US member of congress  
    - state governor  
    - state senator  
    - state member of congress  
    - several votes for several different state judge positions  
    - several other state officer positions  
    - several votes for several local county officers  
    - local sheriff  
    - local school board member  
    - several yes/no votes for several proposed laws, whether they should be passed or not

I don't think it would be possible to calculate all these 20 or 40 votes, if calculated by hand. That's why they use voting machines in America.

https://ballotpedia.org/Official_sample_ballots,_2020

How is it not possible? It's just additional votes, there isn't anything actually stopping counting by hand, is there? How was it counted historically without voting machines?

It takes a lot of people (redundancy and to keep shift hours low to increase count accuracy) to accurately count by hand. https://verifiedvoting.org/election-system/hand-counted-pape...

That makes it difficult, but the original comment said it wasn't 'possible'. I'm failing to see the impossibility still.

Say, how many voting stations are there in a typical city/county in the US?

Here in Indonesia, in a city of 2 million people there are over 7000 voting stations. While we vote for 5 ballots (President, Legislative (National, Province, and City/Regency), we still use paper ballots and count them by hand.

Voting in India is staggered over multiple phases over multiple days/weeks. Only the vote count happens on a single day at the end.

If it's not a national holiday where the vast majority of people don't have to work, and if there aren't polling places reasonably near every voting age citizen, it's voter suppression.

In particular India has a law that no one shall be made to walk more than 2km to vote. The Indian military will literally deploy a voting booth into the jungle so that a single caretaker of an old temple can vote.

Washington State having full vote-by-mail (there is technically a layer of in-person voting as a fallback for those who need it for accessibility reasons or who missed the registration deadline) has spoiled me rotten, I couldn't imagine having to go back to synchronous on-site voting on a single day like I did in Illinois. Awful. Being able to fill my ballot at my leisure, at home, where I can have all the research material open, and drive it to a ballot drop box whenever is convenient in a 2-3 week window before 20:00 on election night, is a game-changer for democracy. Of course this also means that people who serve to benefit from disenfranchising voters and making it more difficult to vote, absolutely hate our system and continually attack it for one reason or another.

As a Dutchman, I have to go vote in person on a specific day. But to be honest: I really don't mind doing so. If you live in a town or city, there'll usually be multiple voting locations you can choose from within 10 minutes walking distance. I've never experienced waiting times more than a couple of minutes. Opening times are pretty good, from 7:30 til 21:00. The people there are friendly. What's not to like? (Except for some of the candidates maybe, but that's a whole different story. :-))

In the US, hours-long lines are routine. Not everywhere, but poorer places tend to have fewer voting machines and longer lines.

We've been closing a lot of polling places recently:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/protecting-vote-1-5-election-day-p...

Voting machines slow down voting from what I understand

Not as much as hanging chads do.

Have not for me. I mark on a paper ballot that then gets fed into a machine to be recorded. That leaves a paper copy and a digital voting record.

At least in Brazil, that's not the case. You get there to vote, and it doesn't take longer than 5 minutes to leave the place.

We have early voting, nobody has to wait, they choose to wait

We're on year five of one of the two parties telling voters to not trust early voting. Their choice is because of the Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt created by the propaganda they are fed.

Here's the President of the United States on Sunday: https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/1154418712892...

"No mail-in or 'Early' Voting, Yes to Voter ID! Watch how totally dishonest the California Prop Vote is! Millions of Ballots being 'shipped.' GET SMART REPUBLICANS, BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!!!"

That's all happening too, but it's honestly a different topic altogether. We have the ability to vote early. Whether you trust it or politicians are trying to undermine your trust in it, etc.... whole other can of worms

Not everyone does. It varies from state to state. Red states in particular have little to no early voting.

You have early voting, some choose not to trust the early voting system.

Please lookup US voting poll overflow issues that come up every election cycle. Just because you experience a well streamlined process doesn't mean that it's the norm everywhere.

Don’t forget you can’t dare offer water or food to those stuck in lines else that’s considered tampering in many (all?) locales in the US.

Mail in voting is just better all around for a geographically diverse place as the US and I wish would be adopted by all states.

Rule of thumb: if Republicans are against it, it’s probably a good thing for everyone else, like mail-in voting.

So excited to see how the right-wing pedants here disagree with this.

Oh, I know. I'm just saying it can be done properly on a single day. It is a pretty challenging and expensive logistical operation though.

So, if you have a minor emergency, like a kidney stone and hospitalized for the day - you just miss your chance to vote in that election?

If so, I see a lot to dislike. As the point I was making is you can’t anticipate what might come up. Just because it’s worked thus far doesn’t mean it’s designed for resilience. There’s a lot of ways you could miss out in that type of situation. I seems silly to make sure everything else is redundant and fault tolerant in the name of democracy when the democratic process itself isn’t doing the same.

If hospitalized on that specific day: Sign the back of the voting card and give your ID to a family member, they can cast your vote

How is that an acceptable response? Honestly. You’re in the hospital, in pain, likely having a minor surgery, and having someone cast your vote for you is going to be on your mind too? Do you have your voting card in your pocket just in case this were to play out?

That’s just ridiculous in my opinion. Makes me wonder how many well intentioned would be voters end up missing out each election cause shit happens and voting is pretty optional

What percent of the electorate is incapacitated on voting day?

What is the that group's deviation from the general voting population's preferences?

What are the margins of the votes on those ballot questions?

Mild curiosity, no idea whether it would be statistically relevant but asking the question is the first step. If you knew the answer, you might want to extend the voting window even if it wouldn't effect an elections outcome it would be a quantified number of people excluded from the democratic process for simply having bad luck at the wrong time.

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