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Comment by redthrowaway | Hacker News Reader

The historical revisionism among the Appleistas is a bit disconcerting. This is not a matter of the "suits" overruling Jobs' "pirates". Apple's current anti-Google jihad is Jobs' baby. This is what he wanted. Now, it's entirely possible that he would never have authorized iOS shipping with a broken maps application, but to suggest that Apple's current direction is anything other than his idea and his impetus is naive in the extreme.

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What worries me is that while Jobs was the one to turn the holy war on, he may have been the only one who could have turned it off again. One of his greatest strengths was his ability to believe something incredibly strongly, but then to change that belief quickly (and, at times, mercurially). Jobs's war on Google would have been hot and nasty, but I think he would have moved on to other things after a while. I worry that the remaining leadership at Apple sees this war as their memorial to Jobs, and will take it far further than might be prudent.

This idea is eerily similar to the way that the new North Korean leader Kim Jung Un wasn't able to countermand the order to perform a long range rocket test, because the order was given by his late father Kim Jong Il.

I think if he had lived for another five years, he would have made peace with Google like he did with Microsoft.

If he had lived for another five years, apple would have a new product. As it is, we're looking at ipad 8 and iphone 11. There are a ton of smart, talented people working at apple, but no indication of focus or vision. Maybe, after a few years of mourning, apple might be able to do something really new. As it is, all those smart people are going to keep doing what they have been doing. That's ok in most organizations, apple is a race car. It's delicate, fragile, and super fast. Also, it's never getting another oil change. let's see how long it runs until it throws a rod.

> If he had lived for another five years, apple would have a new product. As it is, we're looking at ipad 8 and iphone 11. There are a ton of smart, talented people working at apple, but no indication of focus or vision. Maybe, after a few years of mourning, apple might be able to do something really new. As it is, all those smart people are going to keep doing what they have been doing. That's ok in most organizations, apple is a race car. It's delicate, fragile, and super fast. Also, it's never getting another oil change. let's see how long it runs until it throws a rod.

I am confused but do you know something we don't? How are you so sure that they have no long term focus or vision? As far as the rest of the general public is privy to, the only new products out are the slim 15" MBP and the iPhone 5, hardly enough samples to assert that there is no new product out there and they are only iterating on current products...

Apple is an incredibly secretive company. There were no indications the iPhone and iPad were on their way, either. Apple could have a dozen more products like that behind closed doors and we'd never know (until they start planting vague, conflicting rumors 6 months before release to start the anticipation media storm).

There were in fact lots of iPad rumours and I was mocked at the time for assuming they would introduce a tablet.

Your memory is incorrect.

The iOS updates needed for the iPod touch > iPad jump where minimal. It was such an obviously good idea I like many people was surprised to took that long.

PS: iPod touch was released 2007, iPad was released 2010

Very true. But remember, those rumors were steadily coming in for 4 years befor iPad introduction. But it got really worse in the last couple months, and that was when we were really sure there would be an iPad. Right now, we're sure about an iPad mini, but not about the TV thing.

Didn't Jobs want Apple to work on a car next?

Why do you think this is Apple's fight? The iOS 6 comes out 5 years after the original iPhone. That's a nice round number and it's highly likely that there was a 5 year contract and Google simply refused to license Maps to Apple at any reasonable rate (take for instance people moving to open street maps instead of Google Maps because of the recent rate hikes). Hell they bought a whole company for what $15 billion seemingly just to sue over patents.

You know, maybe Apple is in the wrong here, but without actual evidence I don't think it's safe to say which company is the greater evil.

I don't fully understand the background/history in this specific scenario, but I would think that the major reason for large non-patent-troll companies to buy patent portfolios is to give themselves some protection & insurance against being sued by others, i.e. some ammunition to counter-sue with.

Well, I don't think the article said that the current problems were once again caused by the "suits" overruling the "pirates". I think it just mentioned the suits and pirates to give a bit of background on what happened last time and why.

Based off what I have heard of Jobs he was more than capable of conceiving of and carrying out a vendetta against Google of this scale, without needing any help from be-suited MBA's. The point is not who decided to go after google in the fist place. The point is; taking it to these lengths is stopping Apple from focusing on what is really important: Producing great hardware and software, that will delight users.

Maps-gate, antenna-gate, BS-gate. Every time Apple ships an iDevice, the internet and tech press spin some yarn about a defect in the device, how it isn't a big enough improvement, how it's only smaller and thinner, how it's copying Android.

And what happens... every, single, time? The public buys them in droves, and adores them to the last man.

Apple Maps is both a strong technical flourish, and it's a bold strategy for overtaking the leaders by bolstering OpenStreetMap, and I think that end game is going to work.

Here here. Apple have had plenty of failures even after Jobs second coming (Hello Ping!) and its highly revisionist of the technology talking heads to think otherwise.

I believe Apple could have spent another year on it behind closed doors and not gotten much further than they are now. What Apple Maps needs is right now is users, well, using Apple Maps to help direct locations that need improving (that are not downtown San Francisco or Cupertino).

Not being a native speaker I had to google for it but it seems the correct usage is "hear, hear"[1]. (Just pointing it out in case other people are in a similar situation as me).

[1] http://www.unbecominglevity.com/2008/11/10/hear-hear-or-here...

Note that Apple Maps isn't using OpenStreetMap. It's using a combination of a few different sources, mostly TomTom maps.

They are using a combination of different sources, but OpenStreetMap is on of those sources.

Here's a post about what data sources Apple is using: http://mobile.theverge.com/2012/6/11/3078987/apple-tomtom-op...

Dissing apple surely beds for a higher page-view count. I'm sure the problems with the maps will be fixed soon.

Nobody knows the real reason, or combination of reasons why Apple is not using Google Maps. It could be Apple and it could be Google, it could be both. It's all just guesses that are fueling the anger at both sides.

Counterpoint: iPhone is huge in Japan and led a minor revolution in phones here (prior to iPhone non-Japanese phones were unheard of here). Now you can't even get proper directions to some of the largest train stations, including the busiest one, Shinjuku. I don't know how it is in the States, but in Japan this isn't a regression or an inconvenience, it's a total removal of a heavily used feature. I can't think of a better way Apple could have fucked up the experience for Japanese users.

And they were doing so well here, too.

According to the Appleistas, it still counts as "thermonuclear war" if you detonate the nukes over your own cities. Keep calm and carry on!

(Insert joke about the 3D maps.)

Funnily enough, I was reading just the other day about Edward Teller. One of the weapons on his drawing board was a 10 gigaton bomb, for which the delivery method was "BACKYARD" - as in, it's much too heavy to move it anywhere, so it's employed by blowing it up in your own backyard.

Apple had no choice but to make its own maps. IOS5 already lacked turn by turn navigation because Google would not provide it (as a competitive advantage to android).

So Apple building its own maps it's mandatory. Execution has been sub par so far. But Apple has always been sub-par at cloud services. They are improving but slowly

Thank you someone for bringing this up. I can't believe how many actual reviews (not just meme's poking fun at iOS6 maps) have missed this crucial point. This isn't about Apple trying to somehow hurt Google by rolling its own maps app, this is about Google not giving Apple full access to their maps.

The issue is nobody knows the truth here. I think the more plausible scenario is that Google wanted something that Apple refused to give (e.g., advertising revenue, user data, etc), making it not so clear cut as "It's XX's fault!"

Claim months ago was Google refused to license turn by turn. Reviews of Andriod 4 devices were extolling that feature. Apple needed it, had to build it. And it's frankly not that bad. I find it better than Google's, but notably worse than Navigon. Suspect most normals will be serendipitously surprised by the driving directions.

In recent weeks, I've seen the further claim Google was willing to license turn by turn but insisting on user location data for Latitude.

And, they're releasing a maps app for iOS6 now, anyway.

iOS App Store URL?

(There are no indications of a Google Maps app AFAIK but I also hope we will get one soon …)

There was an article on here yesterday that they'd submitted it to the store. I'm not following this too closely other than listening to folks at work bitch about it. (And on HN.)

Just rumour, apparently.

Link: http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/09/20/rumor_of_google_ma...

Will it have turn by turn?

Yes but perhaps they could have released their own turn-by-turn navigation and left maps on there - just like Google have on my Android phone.

Of course they should have done this a long time ago really.

I've also read that Apple didn't want to provide Google with the information that turn-by-turn feeds back.

But that was in TC comment so treat it with ta pinch of salt until verified elsewhere

Here we go again. Other than Jobs tantrum in his book and countless of headlines and blog post, where is this fantastic "jihad"? I see the same level of love/hate between Apple and Google than between Microsoft/Google or Google/Amazon. We just overanalyze it to disturbing extremes, but thats about it.

Are you serious?

What do you call the patent war between Samsung, HTC and every manufacturer of Android phones and Apple besides a proxy war?

I will call it a patent war, not a jihad (I'm tired of reading religious analogies attached to technology, they are an easy trick to perform on the readers mind)

And, you know, there are PLENTY of companies involved in patent wars and we don't routinely position them on the "obsessed against their competition" category. They are just litigious. In some of the examples you mention the Android manufacturers are the ones suing Apple, not the other way around. Are they "obsessed" with Apple?. Are they carrying a jihad against Cupertino, as well?

Totally agree. I work at an eBay Inc. company, and I feel like we announce both a new partnership and a new lawsuit with Google every week. Welcome to the valley.

It's overblown because if Apple were really upset at Samsung they wouldn't be supplying parts for iPhone 5. Remember, according to court filings Apple approached Samsung first to try to settle it before resorting to legal means.

I think you don't realize just how big Samsung is. If you're making hardware, it's not like you can just drop a partner like Samsung because of legal troubles in another department. They are huge, and it's hard to replace them over night.

Samsung corporate is $100bn+ and the mobile is only ~$20bn, so this is a valid point. On the bigger issue here, though, it does seem if apple is being a bit emotional in the whole thing. They are the most profitable/successful company in the world right now. $700bn is insane market cap, its 2-3x GE under Jack welch. They should be 100% focused on kicking ass with product. Buy some map companies or whatever. Spend $1-Xbn on that and they will make it up in marketshare and stock price.

That same emotion drives passion that results in amazing products. I'm not sure you can separate the two.

I agree with your premise, but not your conclusion. Counter-example: Look at pro sports. Those guys/gals live off emotion. They train themselves to be passionate, but incredibly focused. When they mess up, they distinguish physical mistake from "mental error". The latter is lack of focus. Wrong thing at the wrong place and the wrong time... Its not lack of motivation, passion, skill, or dedication.

Happening already:

The Korean Times is reporting this morning that "Apple has reduced purchases of liquid crystal display (LCD) panels for tablet computers from Samsung Display amid the deepening patent disputes, said a leading market research firm, Friday. Market experts said that the move is aimed at minimizing its reliance on Samsung parts."

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2012/09/apple-cu...

At a certain point, Apple is going to run out of partners to piss off.

They have over $100 billion in the bank. With that amount of money, there will always be someone willing to partner up with Apple.

There have also been reports that Apple offered to purchase exclusive access to some of TSMC's foundry capacity in order to diversify away from Samsung for processor fabrication, but TSMC prefer to keep their options open. Apple's problem is that only Samsung operates at sufficient scale to be able to guarantee delivery in the volumes Apple needs.

Speculative at best. High density display sales are ever-increasing across the market - it makes sense for Apple to diversify the supply chain. That said, it makes little to no sense to feed your competition purely from a business standpoint. Samsung can of course continue to sell their parts to other OEMs.

I would call it the same shit that's been happening between almost every tech company since the early 2000s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone_wars

your comment jihad needs to be reanalyzed.

You are right though. Need to read less in the lines. I do believe Apple is suing to protect its best interests. There is really no other way to protect your product than through litigation.

Thing is, as much as I believe Jobs definitely was the one to start this(it's his quote after all), I don't think he'd cut off his nose to spite his face.

But would he accidentally erase it?

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