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Comment by elevatortrim | Hacker News Reader

I have social anxiety and it is completely unrelated to likeableness.

I do not think people would not like me, I do not try to avoid people disliking me, that's not the point at all. Quite the opposite, I'm sure I'm an interesting person and I'm confident people would like me if I could take the step.

Problem is, there is something that physically prevents me from saying "Hi!" to a stranger. I literally cannot get myself to take a step towards them and I can't explain why that is, because I do not understand it myself.

Also quite interestingly (to me), this completely goes away under certain circumstances: (1) If I take around 2-3 units of alcohol and it is not a totally alien environment (it would not help if I was in a bar alone with complete strangers). (2) If more than about 70% of people in the room are people I know well. Then I do not feel anxious about approaching the remaining 30%.

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I have the same exact experience as you. It's like some weird physical barrier, but I can't really articulate the feeling or explain it. The exposure therapy method here doesn't work because "just do it a bunch of times and you'll get more comfortable" isn't even possible for me, I can't "just do it."

For me though, it takes more than a few beers to be comfortable approaching someone. I'd have to be completely sloshed and even then it's a struggle.

The only time I didn't experience the seemingly physical barrier was in college when a friend convinced me to try MDMA and we went out. I became almost the exact opposite of who I am with the social anxiety. I was the most extraverted, outgoing person in our group quite literally chatting up anyone and everyone that I crossed paths with without any care or inhibition around it.

No other pharmaceutical has been able to cure it for me like that, and it's a bit depressing because I liked that version of myself and I'd like to be able to be that person again without an incredibly dangerous illegal substance.

What you say about "extroverted" is interesting, because I do not see myself as an introvert. Once I am familiar with the people around, I am social bee, very chatty, energised by speaking with others etc. I crave social relationships but I can't find or start them.

My wife is exact opposite. She is an introvert who does not have a problem with approaching people. Relationships drain her energy, she can't chat to even a close friend for more than a couple of hours, but approaching a complete stranger when necessary or she wants to? That's not a problem for her at all, she just does not usually want it, and she loves her alone times.

If you’re open about it, maybe you can take a look into Phenibut — it’s somewhere between alcohol and lightweight MDMA in terms of disinhibition effects. It can help tremendously in the context of aiding progressive exposure. Do you own research, though: it can get into slippery slope fairly quickly.

Make your own decisions of course, but make sure you are fully educated about the risks of MDMA. It is not generally considered to be a dangerous substance. It is illegal though, and moderation is always prudent.

> It is not generally considered to be a dangerous substance.

Yes, but regular long time use can lead to memory impediments.

I find it helpful to think of that physical barrier as your own emotions barring you from entering a state where the uncertainty as to whether you'll be safe grows too high to trust yourself to operate in real time.

The problem isn't really being liked or not being liked, the problem is the cognitive overload of trying to predict what will happen and respond to it in realtime, which is sure to set in when one's mental model of the potential interaction is very uncertain. Of course, if your brain quits in a conversation, the other person is not going to be very impressed with you, so this kind of failure carries social risk itself.

The way to fix this is to have as many interactions which are bearable as possible so as to build out the mind's mental model of itself and others in social situations. Gradually the danger just fades away. There's no substitute for firsthand experience; no amount of premeditating, ruminating, or brooding will fix this.

> The problem isn't really being liked or not being liked, the problem is the cognitive overload of trying to predict what will happen and respond to it in realtime, which is sure to set in when one's mental model of the potential interaction is very uncertain.

I think is a big piece. I have social anxiety and I have a tendency not to answer with what I'm thinking but what I think they want to hear because it's more predictable. This gets amplified tenfold in interviews. In an interview, I know that they're looking for a specific answer when they ask a question, but also that the answer differs from interviewer to interviewer. It's like there's this sub-process that is constantly running trying to figure out what to say, but in some situations it ends up locking up the system because it's using too many resources due to the constraints.

Mine is similar to this. In addition the anxiety comes from me thinking that most interactions are banal and more about “trading good vibes and energy” with the other person rather than a genuine deep conversation, and I fear that my facial expressions will reflect what I’m really feeling inside - “ugh can we transition off talking about my weekend or the weather?”. And also because I’m not that witty without alcohol, but it’s almost like most of western small talk is based off of exchanging humor and wit, then laughing very loudly at the punchline. So my anxiety is more to do with not performing well enough to have this stereotypical exchange done smoothly.

This is relatable, mine is somewhat similar. It feels like a very specific version of performance anxiety that unfortunately affects the most banal social interactions. It is obviously multiplied tenfold when I'm in a situation where there are actual stakes (an interview, a first date, etc), but it still applies if I am just talking to a friend of a friend at a party that I don't know very well. The stakes feel very high to me because it's our first time talking.

It's less that I need them to like me or fear being disliked and more that I am just way too conscious of the stakes and the social interaction that's happening, which causes my brain to sort of freeze up. It feels like when I used to play tennis in high school. I'd do great at practice, then freeze up and barely remember how to hit the ball in games because the stakes on each point felt so high.

If I'm around some good friends it completely goes away. If I have hung around the person enough (even without directly talking to them), it goes away. I've also had random days where I don't feel the performance anxiety and performed really well in those situations (and coincidentally some of those days I'd meet a new group of friends or a girlfriend). It's extremely frustrating. Xanax makes the performance anxiety go away completely but slows me down cognitively so I become much less witty and interesting to talk to.

Like most anxiety disorders, there is a reason for your response. Your brain is basically trained to jump from stimulus -> response without cognitively thinking through stimulus -> interpretation -> response.

This is why cognitive behavior therapy can help many people. With a trained professional, you uncover the reasons why you developed the response. Once you know the thinking pattern that drives the response, you can work on changing those thinking patterns.

I've done CBT before and it's been quite helpful.

This is not a full solution, but it really helped me; the book The Charisma Myth

Every chapter has exercises that help deal with social anxiety

Even doing just the 3 basic recommendations in the intro can be very impactful

Thanks! Checking this out now...

You have the fear of being judged; the antidote is realizing that most people barely notice you, it just feels like they do because you’re self-conscious around new people.

I believe most people barely notice me but how do I realise this?

It's amazing we don't have a good answer for this yet.

For me it happened on its own and I realized I was fine with who I was flaws and all. Yeah I get disappointed in myself or whatever but it was just getting comfortable in my own skin over the years that seemed to mostly fix stuff like this.

Also a lot of observing the anxiety and then after it subsided realizing I don't have enough time to worry about everyone else like I was assuming people worry about me.

Sorry for the rambling it's late. Anyway wish you best of luck out there :)

100% agree. I used to think there was some cognitive loop I could will my way out of. Then I did Keto and all the sudden it was gone.

Keto does a lot to the neurotransmitters in the brain and it clearly balances out things for me and I feel no social anxiety at all.

I’m sure cognitive tricks work for some people. They mostly had the opposite effect on me in the long term. I would encourage people to not buy into it too much

Have you got any links to any peer reviewed papers discussing this about Keto?

https://www.metabolicmind.org/ has some of the best info. Research is still early but picking up steam https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/nutrition/articles/10.3...

I assume it can be different for everyone. This post resonates with me, but my social anxiety mixes being sensitive to negative feedback and low self-esteem.

So, you want to avoid both being disliked, but also being liked - because this puts you in novel situations you fear lead to an even bigger failure down the road.

I feel like it's more like a disconnect between intention and action

Maybe it's just me but this seems pretty normal? I don't see myself as having social anxiety, but I am probably more reserved than what you described.

Perhaps it is normal, it has been a great challenge my whole life.

Every new school, new job, new environment has been a struggle until I made friends in natural ways (either I had to wait someone approached me, or it has been through activities like shared home work etc.)

But moving to a new country has been a disaster in terms of relationships. I'm already very anxious, but I now need to approach people in a foreign language and there's no school-like environment where relationships form naturally. Clubs and events do not help as they are at most an hour a week so nothing like the school.

I am sure there are many people like me, but I doubt it is the majority. I am just back from my kids birthday and as far as I could see, among 20, there were only one or two other adults who did not speak to anyone, majority somehow has less challenge.

Alcohol reduces fear.

If it wasn't for booze I'd have no friends.

And school produces fear.

Actually I have attributed it to the pervasiveness of advertising. I fucking hate all ads, and salesmen. And in an attempt to never be anywhere near this thing i hate so much, i do not interrupt strangers ever for any reason

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