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Comment by speleding | Hacker News Reader

My elderly parents have managed to destroy more than one iPhone / Mac (dropped a glass of wine on the keyboard on the last one). Using the "Restore from iCloud" is a god send to get all their messages and settings back. So I'm willing to go through some pain / privacy invasion for that.

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Kind of off topic, but is "spilled liquid on keyboard" still this unfathomable engineering barrier that nobody can break to make a more robust laptop for one of the most common causes of damage?

What do you mean? "Old" (up to Sandy Bridge) Thinkpads had no issue with that, it just meant no keyboard backlighting (which is why the ThinkLight exists).

See the drainage holes at the bottom: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_IMG_...

I've had Thinkpads with backlit keys that still had functional drain holes. I know because they were used a few times.

Transparent silicone exists so I don't see why it would be a problem

I must be imagining that I destroyed an older Thinkpad keyboard with a spill.

You can destroy the keyboard but they're replaceable and usually contained the spill to just the keyboard so it didn't damage any of the more expensive components like the main board. The goal wasn't an invulnerable keyboard but to limit the damage to a cheap replaceable subcomponent that kept the laptop alive.

Man I've been using MacBookPros for so long I forgot how many greebles laptops used to have on the bottom.

It’s complicated, especially as laptops have gotten thinner and tolerances tighter. Dell and Lenovo/IBM used to have laptops with drains.

Lenovo definitely has splash resistant laptops, and most semi-rugged devices are spill-safe, but spilling coffee is still a service event as the cream ruins the keyboard.

Doesnt hardware getting smaller and with tighter tolerances mean they it's easier to waterproof something? Less surface area to protect and tighter joints means there's less gaps to fill.

IIRC Old thinkpad has drain hole in the keyboard to prevent this.

No, Thinkpads have even had drain holes (!) under the keyboard for over a decade now. There's a reason basically every serious corp issues Thinkpads.

Mine doesn't, P53. Ask me how I know :/

https://youtu.be/ig3xI8dUdm0 Rossman running benchmark suite after spilling water all over his Thinkpad keyboard (about 28:00 in)

Electronics and liquids are just not a great combination.

Unless of course you stick to pure alcohol or distilled water…

Most electronics are just fine. A few capacitors, and LCD displays are not fine with water, and probably a few other things I'm not aware of. However most electronics parts are encased in plastic or ceramic and just fine. In general mineral build up from washing in tap water once or twice is not significant, though if you are talking about hundreds of washings it will become a problem (depending on the quality of your local tap water). Deionized water is best if you can get it, but even that will harm a few components.

In general if you can wash it once (meaning components that cannot handle water are not used in this), the screws rusting out will be the next thing that gets you from washing.

Yeah but there are solutions. After years of being vulnerable to water the iphones are now waterproof. Cars have had engine electronics in boxes with wax in for decades. The cheapest stuff you buy in supermarkets comes in waterproof packaging.

All the things you listed arent things you interact with by pressing on them thousands of times in a day. Its a hard problem to make a keyboard that feels nice, looks nice and is waterproof. Its even harder if you know that the payoff isnt that marketable, I dont think I have ever seen a mainstream laptop advertisment talking about that you can spill stuff on it. Phones barely have buttons or holes anymore and it took us quite a while for the flagship-phones to be water-resistant.

I interact with my iphone by pressing it many times per day.

I'll give you that keyboards are hard but my thinkpad had a good keyboard with a drip tray and drainage hole.

Here's one on Amazon with good reviews https://www.amazon.co.uk/Keyboard-Waterproof-Ultra-Compact-P...

You touch it. You're not actuating any mechanisms.

I'd imagine it's cost, right? I'm sure Apple or Microsoft COULD make a waterproof body, but would people pay more for it?

If it cost an extra $100 to make my laptop keyboard water proof, I think it'd be a hard sell for me.

All the keys are wearing hats, so the switches should be fine. Probably needs a couple of drain holes and some acrylic spray over the circuitry. 2¢ per keyboard.

Problem is, then they sell 40% less keyboards.

If instead they thin down the metal in the switches ever so slightly, then they break 2 months after the warranty expires and they sell 40% more...

Not just cost, but typically some volume/mass as well. For a keyboard I think there'd be some sacrifice in "key feel".

Still waiting for dish washer safe keyboard and mouse…

The old IBM model Ms were often washed in a dishwasher - don't use soap, but hot water cleaned them out. Most circuit boards are (or were - I haven't looked in 20 years) washed in hot water near the end of their assembly. Just air dry for a day before use. Ideally you should was in deionized water (or at least rinse with distilled), but if you don't do this often most regular tap water is good enough)

The old model M's also had easy to replace keycaps so you could take them off and wash as often as you want. Only downside is the need to put them back on in the right place each time, which is tedious.

Not all electronic components are water safe, but most are. I have no idea how you figure out if your device is or not without taking it apart. If you do this "often" expect that screws will rust, or minerals will build up - each causing problems. However if you just wash once a year you can get a lot of junk out.

n=1 an overwatered hanging plant killed our Model M.

I dishwash my keyboards (Kinesis contoured) every year or so. Just rinse thoroughly, don't use high-temperature drying, and wait for it dry completely before powering on.

I have put multiple cheaper keyboards through the dishwasher over the years. No heat, no soap, and I make sure to thoroughly dry it of course. I wouldn't do it with a mechanical keyboard for obvious reasons, but I have done it many times with membrane keyboards.

I suspect the Model M was dishwasher safe (if you popped off the keycaps so they don't get lost - put them in a separate dishwasher bag). ... and there's a fair bit of material out there of people trying some variation of it.

Didnt the TV shop have a rolling keyboard?

Plug the ending of the usb somehow (3d printed part?) and it would work?

The manufacturers dont want to do that because this increases costs and also makes them sell less laptops.

Iphones have glass backs for a reason. Sales boost

Although a premium brand could do it.

I’m not paying for that.

Unfathomable engineering barrier?

My guy have you use a water bottle? There's plenty of experience in making waterproof containers although maybe not by SWEs.

There is nothing preventing storing standard 2FA secrets on iCloud. You shouldn’t blindly accept substandard behaviour because of imagined technical requirements.

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