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Comment by bbwbsb | Hacker News Reader

Of course you don't get it: you're not autistic. Did you expect to get it?

There's what's that quote about good art disturbing the comfortable and comforting the disturbed.

Eating is very stressful for many autistic people because of trauma and lack of (non-enmeshing) support in childhood. They don't learn how to make a comfortable environment for themselves or that it is even possible. Every meal becomes stressful. Force feeding or depending completely on others.

Masking goes so deep, it's just not possible to easily convey with words, because after a lifetime of masking you don't even notice all the things that you do that count.

"Presenting behavior in a socialized way when necessary" has a hidden part. Presenting what behavior? To whom? Presenting autism-coded behavior around autistic people is stress-free.

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I think masking is easily conveyed with words because everybody does it - other terms used are "code switching" where you talk differently to friends, family, parents, bosses, subordinates or children; "emotional labor", a phrase often used for service industry people (think receptionists) where people pretend to be in one emotional state (happy and cheerful) for the sake of their job or role while they really aren't. This is even worse / more obvious in the US where a lot of people can / do switch their personality on a whim, e.g. when picking up the phone.

What's different is that for neurotypical people they don't seem to be aware of it and it comes naturally, but for ND it's learned behaviour that costs energy and conscious effort to do. And they feel like they have to do it because society is used to people effortlessly doing it all the time, so if you don't you're considered off, or simply don't get to participate in society because you're weird/boring/scary. The latter is the worst, you're just yourself but people get uncomfortable around you. They won't tell you why nor just accept you (which is understandable, biological defense mechanisms etc), but you do become an outcast. Unless you play the social games.

> Presenting autism-coded behavior around autistic people is stress-free.

Anecdotal, but... not necessarily, any one person's behaviours can affect someone else negatively.

> but for ND it's learned behaviour that costs energy and conscious effort to do. And they feel like they have to do it because society is used to people effortlessly doing it all the time, so if you don't you're considered off, or simply don't get to participate in society because you're weird/boring/scary.

And of course, every now and then you fail to do it right and people think you were acting really weird but won't explain why.

I'd like to elaborate a little more on why "autistic masking" is different from "neurotypicals' masking".

For neurotypicals, masking is to exhibit behaviors that you subconciously know how to do because they are part of your natural range of behaviors. When a neurotypical is masking being friendly and happy in a social occasion (when they actually don't feel like it), they draw on their previous experience of having been friendly and happy in another social occasion. They know what it feels like, they know how to behave instinctively whey they really are happy and friendly, and faking it is only the effort of drawing from prior experience. For actors, this is called "the Method".

For autists, masking is emulating behaviors they wouldn't normally exhibit on any such occasion. They don't know how to do it, not subconciously, not instinctively. So they explicitly have to observe others, emulate their behavior on that occasion. That leads to two kinds of problems: First, they need to have observed this behavior, learned and practiced it, and need to know how to reproduce it correctly. Second, they need to recognize the occasion correctly, and not misinterpret their surroundings, the feelings and moods of others. And since autists also do have problems even interpreting their own emotional state (they do have emotions, but no intuitive way to know what they are at the moment) and even more the emotional state of others, the effort is far higher. Imagine an actor who is asked to play a totally alien role without any frame of reference and without prior experience, no do-overs and all the other people around him are also directors and constantly judging his performance and measuring it against their effortless instinct what it should look like.

I can buy your arguments, but not in the context of this game.

Saying "I'm tired I'll go work more silently" is just reasonably workplace behavior. Telling your coworker "can we sit down and talk about this somewhere more quiet" is just reasonable thing to say to improve productivity. Saying "This meeting is a bit unstructured and i feel if would be more productive to write out an agenda" is not breaking a mask or being an ass, it's focusing on getting shit done for everyone. Sending an email about concerns about unclear and un-mensurable performance in a post-meeting summary is productive and useful for the team (and less socially draining than doing it during the meeting).

All humans mask. Autistic people are simply more prone to "over-mask" or mask things others don't. But a-lot of masking behaviors are mal-adaoptions from childhood. A distraction-less focused and structured work environment helps everyone, so be the ass and enforce it. And particularly engineering fields have a higher tendency to attract (certain) autistic traits, which just further makes speaking out even more valuable for everyone involved.

Simply put; The game makes being "breaking the mask" a negative thing, and a failure case for the game. But all options that break the mask seem to improve energy and social connection. (which goes entirely against the supposed benefit or purpose of masking)

> Saying "This meeting is a bit unstructured and i feel if would be more productive to write out an agenda" is not breaking a mask or being an ass, it's focusing on getting shit done for everyone.

But in many cases, it will absolutely be interpreted as being an ass, and autistic people are less adept at spotting those contexts and communicating in ways which don't look like they're being an ass (also, autistic people are probably more likely to be irritated by the agenda of the rest of the meeting or next meeting being to discuss agendas...)

I agree with your wider point that everyone masks to some degree, but its obviously less consequential to non-junior neurotypical people in familiar environments who can reasonably accurately predict how everyone will react to them choosing to take the mask off and hint what they really think about the meeting. Sure, a lot of other stuff like requesting to talk in a quieter environment is usually something straightforward any reasonable person will accommodate, but it's not surprising people concerned that making too many requests perceived as "weird" might harm their career and not really sure what's "weird" or not default to just trying to avoid them.

Being unable to read or intepret the reaction or social cues given as a response to such blunt remarks is indeed a core issue. I think this is a core reason autistic people over-mask.

Beyond simply masking autistic traits, some people mask to the point of changing personalities or interests. Masking to be more "normal" than any "normal" person.

Knowing when and when not to raise or point out issues or concerns can be quite complex.

So in practice, its quite difficult to find the balance. But take issue with the "inevitability" present in a lot the explanations of autistic masking.

Googling "making workplace autism friendly" gives ... detailed descriptions of very nice workplaces. Particularly the examples in this game are things every workplace would benefit from adjusting even for "neuortypical" workers. (And if not pointed out, it will just continue to drain energy the future)

Is this comment section part of the simulation?

I am, and ironically it prevented me from being able to enjoy this; too many inaccuracies and absolutist perspective frustrated me.

Like others said, skipping breakfast should not be that big of a deal for a reasonably healthy adult, we didn't evolve having 3 meals a day. Intermittent fasting is a thing too.

'Masking' parameter misses the point in my opinion. Picking what I would personally realistically do (having adapted over the years) causes it to drop to 0 over a few days. Picking what i think author wants me to pick, same result. Yet somehow I managed not to get fired in 3 days irl.

I get it, it's an illustration of 'autism is hard' for 'normies'. But it was painfully close to being realistic/enjoyable too.

Not to say it's not useful, ADHD popups were 10/10, general vibe was spot on, will probably forward it to a few friends; it's just not nuanced enough to not annoy me personally.

One of rare times where I can be blunt honest and hopefully not come across arrogant.

> Like others said, skipping breakfast should not be that big of a deal for a reasonably healthy adult, we didn't evolve having 3 meals a day. Intermittent fasting is a thing too.

I haven’t played the simulator but I wonder if it’s also trying to account for more than just the physiological effects. A friend of mine has autism, and we were getting together one day. On the way over I suggested getting some food since it was close to dinner time. They agreed, gave me some items and I bought us some food. When I arrived they were amped up and excited to show me something. I set the food down, and I ate while they were showing me this thing that had them all excited. They ate some of the food too, but were clearly distracted and not all that hungry. No big deal. But a few hours later I noticed they’d gone real quiet and seemed down or anxious about something. Turned out they had been worrying for the last hour that they had offended me because they didn’t eat all the food and they knew they weren’t going to eat all the food because they were going through a phase where eating in general was just a difficult thing to want to do and so were eating just the minimums they needed to not have other problems.

The entire later half of their evening and their excitement over their new thing had been badly deflated all because of a decision / need to not eat all the food on offer. Never mind that this was nothing new for them. Never mind that I could easily see myself skipping food just for the excitement they were experiencing before factoring in any sensory phases. Never mind that it would be a truly shit thing for me to be offended because they only ate some of the greasy fast food I picked up for us. No this simple and normal act caused them an hour of stress and anxiety over worrying if they’d crossed some social line for doing something I didn’t even notice until they said something.

But it doesn’t matter whether I noticed. Their brain latched onto the “you did something abnormal, people might have noticed, now you need to analyze everything that’s happened to figure out what you next move should be” train of thought and it would not let go. So at least from what I’ve seen, choosing to eat or not can have impacts beyond just “hungry”

> Of course you don't get it: you're not autistic. Did you expect to get it?

Am I missing where the person you are replying to identified as non-autistic?

This is absolutely spot on.

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