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Comment by thruway516 | Hacker News Reader

> After all is said and done, Charlie Javice will be hanging out at a prison camp—probably down there with Holmes and Maxwell, because it's cushy—and do no more than 4 years

I don't mind that outcome. She did not knowingly sell a product that could harm the public or abuse and traffic children, so it wouldn't be unfair or a travesty of justice like with those other two (especially that last one)

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Agreed, hot take, but she defrauded a large corporate bank , big whoop if you ask me.

Have you ever heard of second-order effects?

I'm not sure I like the incentives that creates, though. If this is the precedent, then if you're committing financial fraud already you might as well go as big as possible, since there appears to be a cap on punishment.

I mean from mine, and im sure many other people's view, that is already mostly true. Her biggest mistake to me seems like messing with a big dog, rather than screwing over little guys that don't have millions to throw at the courts or teams of full time lawyers. If JPMorgan defrauded the same amount of money from a bunch of regular joes I doubt anybody would be in jail or even that any potential fees would come anywhere to matching the amount of money defrauded.

Strong anti fraud rules (even for massive banks) are a foundational part of a high functioning society.

I'm unconvinced. Banks wield massive political power through their capital, and so get away with highway robbery all the time. 2008 financial crisis comes to mind. It seems to me that the rules are one sided and so it seems this "foundational part" of high functioning society is just guarding the highwaymen with the cityguard, when the swords should be facing the other direction.

Could it be that you're not in a high functioning society, rather than the point being invalid?

The banks at the center of the 2008 crisis are largely international. Is your question about the entire western international finance system and all societies comprising it?

It's generalized to any grouping.

Having written laws means nothing when they are not equally enforced. Which is the norm in the West.

For example: Intentional wage theft.

Anti fraud rules sending people to jail are what we're discussing, and the proposition that they're necessary for a high functioning society. If we have these rules, and society is not high functioning, then, it seems you and I agree, that they're not necessary for a high functioning society.

Those rules need power to enforce. That power lies with the elites. And elites don’t suffer as much as the small person does.

So high functioning be damned. I want a society that has heart.

> Strong anti fraud rules (even for massive banks) are a foundational part of a high functioning society.

Sometimes it seems we're missing most of the "foundational part[s] of a high functioning society" except the ones that serve elites (which then are so sacred *and must never be questioned).

Eventually people stop caring about the elite's protections, even if that breakdown is ultimately harmful. It's like the murder of that United Healthcare CEO. His company ground down the common man's benefits in a way that probably killed thousands (at least), but we're supposed to cry for him. Betray people long enough, and they're no longer interested in holding up their side of the bargain.

If they want a high functioning society, the elites need to work harder at holding up their end of the bargain.

The trick is that you have to do the fraud at institutional scale. E.g. rating junk mortgage bonds as "AAA".

You only get punished if you do it at small scale.

That remindes me of all those bank executives we jailed over their role in the 2008 financial crisis.

ah yes, so clearly we must make sure that they are even less enforced. what could go wrong? hell, Enron lost investors-- bunch of billionaire fat cats, the lot of 'em-- $75 billion... they shoulda made Kenneth Lay Chairman of the Fed! or i guess maybe he his net worth had one too many zeroes to be sympathetic... hell, Kawhi Leonhard and his uncle blatantly and deliberately broke all of the NBA salary cap rules in the way that an undercover cop asks everyone they come across if they can buy weed from them, but the Clippers are owned by Steve Ballmer, so it's apparently okay. we hate the player because of the game in everything except for sports lmao.

Alternatively, a golden device to the right ruler also works

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