Handy: https://700c.dk/?powercalc
My Pi CM4 NAS with a PCIe switch, SATA and USB3 controllers, 6 SATA SSDs, 2 VMs, 2 LXC containers, and a Nextcloud snap pretty much sits at 17 watts most of the time, hitting 20 when a lot is being asked of it, and 26-27W at absolute max with all I/O and CPU cores pegged. €3.85/mo if I pay ESB, but I like to think that it runs fully off the solar and batteries :)
Pretty sure most of us aren't running anywhere close to full load 24/7, but whoa, Irish power is expensive. In the central US I pay $0.14/KWh.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_hydroelectric_scheme
It's definitely not suited for production, but there, you won't find old blade servers either (for the power to performance issue).
If the goal is a lot of RAM and you don’t care about noise, power, or heat then these can be an okay deal.
Don’t underestimate how far CPUs have come, though. That machine will be slower than AMD’s slowest entry-level CPU. Even an AMD 5800X will double its single core performance and even walk away from it on multithreaded tasks despite only having 8 cores. It will use less electricity and be quiet, too. More expensive, but if this is something you plan to leave running 24/7 the electricity costs over a few years might make the power hungry server more expensive over time.
That combo gives you the better part of a gigabyte of L3 cache and an aggregate memory bandwidth of 600 GB/s, while still below 1000W total running at full speed. Plus your NICs are the fancy kind that let you play around with RoCEv2 and such nifty stuff.
It would also be relevant to then also learn how to do stuff properly with SLURM and Warewulf etc. instead of a poor mans solution with Ansible playbooks like in these blog posts.
Commodity desktop cpus with 32 or 64GB RAM can do all of this in a low-power and quiet way without a lot more expense.
The only problem in practice is that server CPUs don't support S3 suspend, so putting whole thing to sleep after finishing with it doesn't work.
Makes me wonder if I should unplug more stuff when on vacation.
Fuckin nutty how much juice those things tear through.
Rates have gone up enormously because the cost of wildfires is falling on ratepayers, not the utility owners.
Regulated monopolies are pretty great, aren’t they? Heads I win, tales you lose.
That said, I'm of the opinion that power/water/internet should all be state/county/city ran. I don't want my utilities companies to have profit motives.
My water company just got bought up by a huge water company conglomerate and, you guessed it, immediate rate increases.
If your local regulators approved the merger and higher rates, your complaint is with them as much as the utility company.
Not saying that some regulators are not basically rubber stamps or even corrupt.
I did (as did others), in fact, write in comments and complaints about the rate increases and buyout. That went unheard.
https://core.coop/my-cooperative/rates-and-regulations/rate-...
$50/month for 100W continuous usage isn't totally mad, and that could climb even higher over the rest of the decade.
Still only $50/month, not $150, but I very much care about 100W loads doing no work.
That said, I am not sure those numbers are true. I am in California (PG&E with East Bay community generation), and my TOU rates are much lower than those.
Minimum Delivery Charge (what’s paid monthly, which is largely irrelevant, before annual true-up of NEM charges): $11.69/month
Actual charges, billed annually, per kWh:
Peak NEM charge: $.62277
Off-Peak NEM charges: $.31026
Those rates do get a little lower in the winter (.30 to .48), and of course the very high rates benefit me when I generate more energy than I consume (which only happens when I’m on vacation). But the marginal all-in costs are just very high.
That’s NEM2 + TOU-EV2A, specifically.
I can solve for them with three equations for three unknowns... but since they change the rates quarterly by the time I know what my exact rates were they have changed.
What's the margin on unplugging vs just powering off?
The EU (and maybe China?) have been regulating standby power consumption, so most of my appliances either have a physical off switch (usually as the only switch) or should have very low standby power draw.
I don't have the equipment to measure this myself.
https://www.servethehome.com/lenovo-system-x3650-m5-workhors...
In this case that 'new' is energy efficient software down to the individual lines of code and what their energy cost is on certain hardware. Academics are publishing about it in niche corners of the web and some entrepreneurs are doing it but of course none of this is cool now so we remain a mockery for our objectives. In time this too will become a real thing as many now are just beginning to feel the ever rising costs of energy which is only just starting to increase from decisions made years ago. The worst is yet to come as seen and heard directly from every single expert that has testified in the last years before the Energy and Commerce committee however only the outside-the-boxers among us watch such educational content to better prepare for tomorrow.
Electricity powers our world and nearly all take it for granted, time too will change this thinking.
:D
Also $150 for 100w is crazy, thats like $1.70 per kWh; it would cost about $150 a year at the (high) rates of southern Sweden.
Personally it’s cheaper to buy the hardware that does spend most of its time idling. Fast turnaround on very large private datasets being key.
It also means it performs like a 10 year old server CPU, so those 28 threads are not exactly worth a lot. The geekbench results, for whatever value those are worth, are very mediocre in the context of anything remotely modern: https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/intel-xeon-e5-2690-...
Like a modern 12-thread 9600x runs absolute circles around it https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/amd-ryzen-5-9600x
I'm well aware of the costs of power and the lgostics of colocation, this is purely about how I'm more willing to spend $100-$200 for a toy than I am $1000-$2000.
For dedicated build boxes that crunch through lots of sources (whole distributions, AOSP) but do run seldomly, getting your hands on lots of Cores and RAM very cheaply can still trump buying newer CPUs with better perf/watt but higher cost.
The homelab group on Reddit is full of people who don't understand any of this - they have full racks in their house that could be replaced with one high-end desktop.
A lot of that group is making use of the IO capabilities of these systems to run lots of PCI-E devices & hard drives. There's not exactly a cost-effective modern equivalent for that. If there were cost-effective ways to do something like take a PCI-E 5.0 x2 and turn it into a PCI-E 3.0 x8 that'd be incredible, but there isn't really. So raw PCI-E lane count is significant if you want cheap networking gear or HBAs or whatever, and raw PCI-E lane count is $$$$ if you're buying new.
Also these old systems mean cheap RAM in large, large capacities. Like 128GB RAM to make ZFS or VMs purr is much cheaper to do on these used systems than anything modern.
Like if you have a large media library, you need to push maybe 10MB/s, you don't need 128GB of RAM to do that...
It's mostly just hardware porn - perhaps there are a few legit use cases for the old hardware, but they are exceedingly rare in my estimate.
For just streaming a 4k bluray you need more than 10MB/s, Ultra HD bluray tops out at 144 Mbit/s. Not to mention if that system is being hit by something else at the same time (backup jobs, etc...).
Is the 128GB of RAM just hardware porn? Eh, maybe, probably. But if you want 8+ bays for a decent sized NAS then you're already quickly into price points at which point these used servers are significantly cheaper, and 128GB of RAM adds very little to the cost so why not.
If anything, 2nd hand AMD gaming rigs make more sense than old servers. I say that as someone with always off r720xd at home due to noise and heat. It was fun when I bought it during winter years ago, until summer came.
Not sure if it's not properly doing lower power states, or if it's the 10 HDDs spinning. Or even the GPU. But also don't really have anything important running on it that I can't just turn it off.
And what case are you putting them into? What if you want it rack mounted? What about >1gig networking? What if I want a GPU in there to do whisper for home assistant?
Used gaming rigs are great. But used servers also still have loads of value, too. Compute just isn't one of them.
Maybe one of the Fractal Designs cases with a bunch of drive bays?
> What if you want it rack mounted?
Companies like Rosewill sell ATX cases that can scratch that itch.
> What about >1gig networking?
What about PCI Express card? Regular ATX computers are expandable.
> What if I want a GPU in there to do whisper for home assistant?
I mean... We started with a gaming rig, right? Isn't a GPU already implicit?
Have you looked at what they cost? Those cases alone cost as much as a used server. Which comes with a case.
> What about PCI Express card? Regular ATX computers are expandable.
As mentioned higher up, they run out of lane count in a hurry. Especially when you're using things like used Connect-X cards
I mean: An ATX case can be paid for once, and then be used for decades. (I'm writing this using a modern desktop computer with an ATX case that I bought in 2008.)
PCI Express lanes can be multiplied. There should frankly be more of this going on than there is, but it's still a thing that can be done.
Consumer boards built on the AMD X670E chipset, for instance, have some switching magic built in. There's enough direct CPU-connected lanes for an x16 GPU and a couple of x4 NVMe drives, and the NIC(s) and/or HBA(s) can go downstream of the chipset.
(Yeah, sure: It's limited to an aggregate 64 Gbps at the tail end, but that's not a problem for the things I do at home where my sights are set on 10Gbps networking and an HBA with a bunch of spinny disks. Your needs may differ.)
A lot of business are paying obscene money to cloud providers when they could have a pair of racks and the staff to support it.
Unless you're paying attention to the bleeding edge of the server market, to its costs (better yet features and affordability) this sort of mistake is easy to make.
The article is by someone who does this sort of thing for fun, and views/attention, and im glad for it... it's fun to watch. But it's sad when this same sort of misunderstanding happens in professional settings, and it happens a lot.
So for $3000, that's 3000 hours, or 125 days, (if just wastefully leave them on all the time, instead of turning them on when needed).
Say you wanted to play around for a couple of hours, that's like.. $3.
(That's assuming there's no bonus for joining / free tier, too.)
The desktop equivalent of your 10 T3 Micro instances is about $600 if you buy new. For example a Lenovo ThinkCentre M75q Gen 2 Tiny 11JN009QGE has 8x3.2GHz processor with hyperthreading. That's 16 virtual cores compared to the 20 vcpus of the T3 instances, but with much faster cores. And 16GB RAM allows you to match the 1GB per instance.
If you don't have anything and feel generous throw in another $200 for a good monitor and keyboard plus mouse. But you can get a used crap monitor for $20. I'd give you one for free just to be rid of it.
That's a total of $800, or 33 days of forgetting to shut down the 10 VMs. Maybe half that if you buy used.
Granted not everyone has $800 or even $400 to drop on hobby projects, renting VMs often does make sense
I regularly rent this for a few hours at a time for learning and prototyping
But if you're someone like me who intends to actively use the hardware for real-world purposes, the cloud often simply can't compete on price. At home, I have a mini PC with a 5600G, 32GB of RAM, and a few TBs of NVME storage. The entire thing cost less than $600 a few years ago, and consumes around 20W of power on average.
Even on the cheapest cloud providers available, an equivalent setup would exceed that price in less than half a year. SSD storage in particular is disproportionately expensive on the cloud. For small VMs that don't need much storage, it does make sense, but as soon as you scale up, cloud prices quickly start ballooning.
This. Some cloud providers offer VMs with 4GB RAM and 2 virtual cores for less than $4/month. If your goal is to learn how to work with clusters, nothing beats firing up a dozen VMs when it suits your fancy, and shut them down when playtime is over. This is something you can pull off in a couple of minutes with something like an Ansible script.
In the cloud, worst case I have a bill over 5-6 digits.
And I know my ADD, 2 is not super unlikely.
You don’t need hardware to learn. Sure it helps but you can learn from a book and pen and paper exercises.