Hacker News Reader

Comment by WD-42 | Hacker News Reader

This 100%. Just look at the screenshot on the KDE page for Konsole: https://apps.kde.org/konsole/

What's up with the massive amount of chrome used for nothing except new tab/copy/paste buttons? Is it really necessary to take up what could be used for 2+ extra lines of terminal output for a labeled Copy button? Compare it to gnome console, or any other terminal really, and you will get far more terminal output for the size of the window, as it should be.

And it's not just Konsole. So many KDE apps have this same problem. Giant labeled buttons taking up space from the actual content, for things you will never use or have well established keyboard shortcuts already.

View on HN

In Konsole's defense, this is the actual default appearance of a Konsole window when you launch it for the first time in the current stable release:

https://mero.ng/i/lWMWazUP.png

The screenshot on the website has all sorts of optional bits enabled, and I would readily agree is not a good showcase.

The reason all those optional bits exist is because you'd be surprised who ends up using a terminal emulator in a general purpose desktop GUI used in many large IT deployments. E.g. a lot of folks who are used to PuTTy on Windows and want a little GUI for SSH connections, and for them this is the game changer.

The "try to show all the goods in your screenshot" mindset is really not a good one though, agree :)

https://imgur.com/a/konsole-vs-ghostty-tR4Otmy

This is stock Konsole vs Ghostty. Notice Ghostty also has multiple tabs open. There is just so much waste in the Konsole UI.

Stock yes. Just hide the toolbar. I don't like that either. Turn off main toolbar and session toolbar.

That's better, but the toolbar/buttons could always be configured away. The real problem is the context menu. Has it been simplified or made configurable?

Out of interest, what do you use the context menu for in a terminal emulator so often that it bothers you? I can't even remember the last time I opened it.

I hide all UI and use only the context menu, 90% of the time to open a new tab, 5% of the time to split a tab, and 4% of the time to bring up the config dialog. 1% to open a new window, though I'm often doing Ctrl+Alt+T for that recently.

This is what I've done since SGI 4DWM Terminal (and ancient NT Command Prompt), and almost all other terminal emulators can be configured to do so. Konsole stands alone (to my knowledge) in its insistence on cruft all over the interface. The terminal widget itself seems fine.

To be clear, I don't mind obscure options, but they should live in the control panel. See my cousin comment for more details.

All these things have keyboard shortcuts If the context menu bothers you, it would seem worth it to use them for frequent actions. CTRL+Shift+T opens a new tab for instance. It's way more efficient anyway in an app that's so keyboard centric.

I don't find that context menu so bad to be honest. If you use it often you should know where things are anyway.

Overall I'm quite surprised at the hate Konsole receives in this HN thread. Removing the toolbars is two clicks away and only needs to be done once. Even the menu bar can be hidden. Such a konsole window would be just the terminal, no cruft, no UI elements. To me we are in the "some people will never be happy for no clear reasons" territory.

I've been using it for years I'm very happy with it. Its search feature is awesome, and its ability to have infinite scroll history is very nice too, it has decent performance.

The one terrible thing I have seen about konsole is that the toolbar buttons were highjacking the keyboard bindings in the terminal, but it was a bug, I think this is now fixed and a workaround was to remove the toolbar.

When I'm making a new tab, usually I'm coming from the browser or file-manager, so my hand is already on the mouse. Am clicking on the term anyway.

No other mainstream GUI term has these clutter issues. They are small issues to be sure, but unnecessary.

But surely you are going to use the keyboard once you have switched to the new tab? It's a terminal after all.

When I start typing I want to execute the new idea immediately. No other tabbed terminal (that I’ve used) prevents this besides konsole, simply because the context menu is (un)optimized to include the kitchen sink instead of the one item I want.

Folks trying to talk me into a new workflow can’t succeed because I’m multiplatform. Gnome terminal, iTerm2, Win Terminal, etc. konsole is the oddball and least used of the group. Partly because the context menu is a mess.

I'm actually surprised you're complaining about Konsole then, given iTerm2's context menu almost doesn't fit on my screen.

Would prefer it much smaller, but it has what I need, is better organized, items are at least theoretically useful, doesn’t include the full menu, and I don’t use it as much.

Bottom line, it doesn’t prevent my workflow.

Fair enough. I usually switch to the terminal using alt+tab.

> To me we are in the "some people will never be happy for no clear reasons" territory.

That's because you ignore/downplay the very clear reason of space waste expressed in the conversation.

No, I mentioned that this is solved with a couple of clicks to do once if you are bothered by this. I see few reasons to complain really. One could prefer having different defaults (and I would, actually), but it's not like their are awful neither.

Had the toolbars been difficult or impossible to customize or remove, I wouldn't say, but here ulyou can make it look to your taste completely. The issue is a taste question and is a "meh" at best.

Yes, that's the downplaying part. Configuring bad default away doesn't make a user happy the bad default existed and required wasting time fixing it (of course it's not a couple of clicks, that's also downplaying, you'd have to first acquire the knowledge that it's possible (not all UIs can be customized) and how to do it (e.g., some DEs require installing some DE Shell Extension to be able to find the relevant config))

Defaults cannot always please every unique user. That's an impossible goal.

It's fine that impossibly picky users get to click through a few settings once to set their environment to their liking. I'm one myself sometimes.

I wonder if vocal people here who hate this minor (yes, I'll die on this hill) stuff so much took the time to even report this as an issue in KDE's bugtracker. Here's the link if it's not already done:

https://bugs.kde.org

> Defaults cannot always please every unique user. That's an impossible goal.

You're just continuing in your quest to ignore the issue. Just set the goal at "most users", that's fine, you'll still need to defend this actual screen waste to make an argument, but you can't hide behind a generic "can't please everyone"

> hate

There is no hate, you've made it up to make your argument sound better.

> this minor (yes, I'll die on this hill)

No one is looking at, let alone fighing, you on this imaginary hill. The other commenter explicitly said it's not a big issue. I also agree it's minor. Stop bringing more straws for your scarecrow!

> took the time to even report this

To waste it on a repeat of this argument with ~0 chance of a win? Again, you've made up that hate, so there is no motivation in doing that, a more productive use of that time is to use a better terminal (or just configure it away), so that's usually what happens

You can eliminate that 90% by Ctrl+Shift+T.

Doesn't help when coming from a browser. Ctrl+Alt+T works without the Terminal in focus however. Ctrl+Shift+T needs me to click in the terminal first then go back to the keyboard. Waste of time.

I almost always switch windows with Alt+Tab, not with a mouse, so it fits very well for that flow. Understandable if it doesn't do the trick for you though.

I’m well aware of all these hotkeys. The issue is I’m using the mouse with my browser, scrolling clicking etc. Reading gives me an idea so I click on my terminal that’s always open. This is the best time to open a tab imho, and have been doing it for decades.

Thankfully there are a dozen terminals to choose from that don’t make konsole’s minor mistakes. (Although chances are they made others.)

I don't think it's super complex with a ton of options any more. Just installed cachyos(arch based) kde plasma and the right click menu looks like this https://i.imgur.com/S59wy2H.png so either they are configuring away a lot of the complexity or the updates to it have been slimming.

- Four, no really four ways to copy...

- Change encoding? I have never changed the encoding of my terminal, not once since first using a computer, circa 1982. UTF8-FTW.

- Adjust scrollback, on the context menu?

- If you hide the toolbar/menu I believe it adds the main menu to the context menu. And that is where the majority of the hundred options live. And at the end, where a Properties or Preferences entry should live.

- Last but not least, no "New Tab" entry, which is the thing I use it for 90% of the time.

double click the tab area and you get a new tab. ctrl-n gets you a new tab. i personally wouldn't ever use that feature.

I like the extra modes of copying since they all have unique uses and prevent editing in cases.

the encoding bit is odd yeah. adjust scrollback is not a common option i suppose.

it would be nice to configure the right click menu more but that's not an option i see in many apps so it's a wash. I use the menu so i don't have those options. it may even be configurable via a file somewhere in .config... i haven't tried or been bothered by the defaults enough to do so.

I am mainly an urxvt user but actually use konsole once in a while specially for this kind of advanced feature

> Four, no really four ways to copy...

All of which are useful

> Change encoding? I have never changed the encoding of my terminal, not once since first using a computer, circa 1982.

Then you've never worked with Japanese. Which is fine, but a significant proportion of the world needs to.

> UTF8-FTW

Not for Japanese, sadly.

Neither useful for a very large majority of people. Yet you’ve decided we must avoid them every time we look at the context menu.

Also neglected the point elsewhere that obscure options are fine in control panels, auxiliary and submenus.

> So many KDE apps have this same problem. Giant labeled buttons taking up space from the actual content

Unlabeled buttons are a scourge, accursed and meaningless hieroglyphs

I do love that the floppy lives on in the Save icon.

Unless you remember the meaning , of course, then suddenly the curse is lifted and you just don't waste space

Good thing KDE has a global setting to remove the labels!

GUIs (and especially buttons) are most useful for things I do infrequently. Frequent tasks are better done by keyboard shortcuts or command line utilities anyway. The only places where I routinely click on label-less icons are in the menu bar/system tray and my browser's always-visible toolbar.

I guess both of those places are especially space constrained, which maybe makes it feel more worth it to me. And I also actively arrange all the items in both cases, choosing not just the arrangement but which will show at all. That means I know them basically as soon as I throw them down.

I wonder if it would be crazy to have the labels on shown-by-default buttons fade only after a certain number of clicks on them.

> I guess both of those places are especially space constrained, which maybe makes it feel more worth it to me.

See how easy it is to justify "the scourge"? Also, this is exactly the same situation here - using a permanent toolbar on your main screen (not a submenu or some secondary settings screen where extra labels don't cost anything)

> crazy to have the labels on shown-by-default buttons fade only after a certain number of clicks on them.

Great idea, had the same, though an even better is to use frecency as a proxy for memory everywhere (and also apply it to various tips and keybinds etc) - if you've clicked the button 10 times, the label disappears, but if you haven't clicked in a year, it reappears (all configurable per button of course, OS-wide, there are some frequently use symbols like clipboard that you'll never forget due to use in other apps)

That screenshot has all of the Konsole features enabled. You'd use one at a time if you use any at all.

> So many KDE apps have this same problem.

Right click any KDE app toolbar -> Text position -> Icons only

I also believe it's a setting in the System Settings.

That's why I love KDE. You can have it just the way you like it. Not how someone else decided on.

I think a lot of people knock it just from looking at some screenshots of the default options. Not knowing everything is configurable. Think the taskbar (panel) is too thick? Just change it. Don't want that toolbar? No worries just turn it off. It's so good.

I was in that boat for years. It took forcing myself to switch due to GNOME breaking basic features before I realized just how great and customizable KDE is.

You can easily implement Windows or macOS UI layouts using it and it isn't terrible. I actually prefer KDE to either desktop.

> That's why I love KDE. You can have it just the way you like it. Not how someone else decided on.

That is unfortunately less and less the case. Still better than most alternatives in that regard though.

The context menu is not configureable.

> Is it really necessary to take up what could be used for 2+ extra lines of terminal output for a labeled Copy button?

It's not, which is why the context menu gives you an "Icons Only" option, along with "Text Only", "Text Alongside Icons" (default), and "Text Under Icons". You can also adjust the icon size, or remove the toolbar entirely.

It's very easy to customize and remove all the visual noise though.

> This 100%. Just look at the screenshot on the KDE page for Konsole: https://apps.kde.org/konsole/

Oof. It looks like it’s trying to iTerm2 but, as the kids say, it’s not him.

I generally don’t use any “default” terminal regardless of OS or DE if I don’t have to. I’m full time on Ghostty these days and I adore it

Reply on news.ycombinator.com