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Comment by geerlingguy | Hacker News Reader

$17k minus an extra $2k added to my Camry's trade-in value, and it's eligible for the $4k used vehicle EV tax rebate at the end of the year. So out the door $15k with 36k miles and 94% doh battery, I was satisfied with the deal.

At the end of the tax year I'll have paid $11k for the car, effectively.

I tacked on the price of the CHAdeMO adapter mentally to the price I offered, since I knew I'd want it for the one or two regional road trips I take per year.

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Re: the tax credit, note the income requirements here:

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/used-clean-vehicle-cr...

I don't know anything about your situation, but I'm guessing quite a bit of the readers here on HN from the US won't qualify.

>The sale qualifies only if:

>You buy the vehicle from a dealer.

This is such an annoying part of the tax incentive.

It's a huge, pointless gift to car dealers (who need no help) because it means they don't have to compete for price with private sellers or buyers. If I have a used EV to sell, I basically have to sell to the dealer because no buyer wants to bother buying from me when they can get the same thing from a dealer with a $4k tax credit on top.

KeySavvy is the normal workaround for this. $99 extra cost to both sides for them to handle the title verification and shipping, and to act as the dealer to make it qualify for EV credits.

Wow, great tip! Thanks!

Maybe the car dealers have had a lobbyist that has influenced this to their favor. Wouldn't surprise me. But likewise, there's some formality and paperwork trails that exist when a dealership is involved vs. private party, so I wonder if the concern is some fraud or abuse in the private market as well. Regardless, I agree with you.

Car dealers are a well-known, hugely influential lobby.

Given that, probably lobbyist influence then more than anything.

Not to mention there are severe income limits on the rebate

Right, set too low (imho). And not a graduated phase out either. And the market for these cars are going to be people typically past the income limit. My instinct tells me that people below the income limit ($75K/$150K) probably aren't really in the market for an EV. They are probably just trying to keep their regular gas vehicle running. An EV is almost a second/third car for a lot of people, commuters trying to offset their gasoline costs.

Individual tax credits/deductions shouldn't have income limits / phaseout at all. We get the progressive taxation on the front end, with marginal tax brackets.

Totally agreed. But unfortunately, they often do.

My YouTube (mostly now) income is a fraction of what I used to make as a software architect—I'm well within the limits these days :)

What's your channel :)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR-DXc1voovS8nhAvccRZhg

Jeff Geerling. Also the owner/author of the site we're discussing in this thread.

Jeff is a treasure! https://youtube.com/@jeffgeerling

> I'll have paid $11k for the car, effectively.

No you have not. You have paid $11k + a whole working car to get that one. I also can get a new iPhone every year "for only $500" if you consider the real price being "only $500 plus a year-old perfectly-working iPhone"

His trade-in car was a long way from "year-old perfectly-working".

Looking at $13k (which excludes his $2k trade-in), I'm left wondering if my own conditions are favorable for switching to EV.

The iPhone example was just to make it more obvious, but the logic still applies. It's 13k at best, not 11k

The year-old iPhone example is misleading at best, if you take this guy at his word on having "driven into the ground" multiple cars. If you don't believe him on that front, I see no reason you'd believe anything else in this essay, anyway.

We should ourselves and should encourage others to effect less waste in our world. We should not compare someone apparently doing so to those who clearly do not.

I think you are misreading?

> $17k minus an extra $2k added to my Camry's trade-in value

This says the dealer paid a premium for the Camry to secure the deal on the Leaf. The Camry's full trade-in value was not given.

Right, my initial statement applies: it's not "just $11k", it's a lot more.

How I read it, the deal could have been something like $5k (+$2k) for the trade-in car and $10k in cash. Later there is a $4k used EV tax rebate.

In this situation the cost works out to something like

5k + 10k - 4k = 11k

The deals on used electric vehicles are pretty shocking.

Used Chevy Volts are actually more expensive now than they were a few years back, at least on the CarMax website. Maybe a higher price because they were discontinued but I used to love my Volt. Averaged 150mpg over 3 years.

During COVID lockdowns I got on a plane to San Diego and bought a 2013 Volt with 100k miles for $5500. It had warranty until 2023 and 150k miles (I didn't use it though). I have spent Zero dollars on repairs and I'm up to 207k miles. Favorite car ever.

Still can’t believe they stopped making them.

For another data point... I purchased a used 2011 Leaf for $5k a few years ago and still use it as my daily driver. It gets between ~50-70 miles per change and charges incredibly slow, but I'm been happy with it.

kind of nuts since a used tesla is within 5k of this

You could get a whole other car for 5k

BMW i3 are going for about the same.

and they're an absolute -nightmare- to maintain.... even with that being the case i still want one because russ hannaman had a point- everyone loves a car with doors that open like this \[]/ not like this =[]=

My 2017 i3 REX is just fine. It needs new tires before winter hits, an alignment (it gets knocked way out really easily, especially if you've ever taken it on a less than perfect road. Washington State has many such roads), and I should probably proactively do an oil change on the REX. Oh, and drivers seat heater has a short so doesn't work (the fix from BMW would be prohibitively expensive, but I may try a DIY re-wire).

Otherwise, this car is as close to a perfect daily driver I've ever owned. I hope it lasts forever: not a single touchscreen, no OTA updates, decent battery range (and DC Fast Charging at 60kW+), gas engine to fall back on (with OBD-II programming you can enable Hold State of Charge on the NA models allowing you to truly treat the i3 as a proper series-hybrid and not just an emergency limp-along range extender that will crap out going up a hill in the cold), comfy seats, and did I mention NO TOUCHSCREENS and NO OTA UPDATES?

I haven’t had the alignment problem and our roads are probably worse than yours. Potholes, gravel, dirt, mountain switchbacks, etc.

I found that America’s Tires charges $200 less per set than the dealership, but I get steering wheel vibration at around 75-80mph. With dealership install, there’s no vibration up till the electronic limiter hits at 93mph. I’m not sure if handling the same and sounding the same at 65 and 93 mph is a feature or a bug though. :-)

This is the only car that they couldn’t align + balance prop Our local mechanic gets the balance to work up to about 85mph. Maybe have the dealership fix the alignment?

We know some people with an old leaf. On certain points in their commute the ADAS emergency brakes every single day. It’s particularly bad if someone is tailgating them as they approach that spot, though it can’t be good for the tires either.

Used i3’s are going for way under $17K these days, fwiw. I was actually shopping for a used leaf, and ended up with an i3.

I just took mine on a fairly long trip, around 370 miles. I used the hold charge feature once the battery reached 75%. It was fun to drive through a hilly region, the battery got me up the hill, then the engine plus regen charged it back up to the set point on the way down the hill. I liked that I didn't have to touch the brakes.

The fuel tank is quite small, but it doesn't take long to fill.

Overall fuel consumption was around 6-8 gallons for the trip.

The i3 has suicide doors, the i8 is the one with three comma doors.

Sho you right

Not to be rude but I'm surprised you qualified for the tax credit...

Could've bought Model 3 for this and spend $300 for third party buttons. It has software thats actually somewhat hackable and car is far more capable. But I understand it's hard to recommend Tesla these days lol.

Ignoring any PR or political motivations, I’d argue the Leaf is a better choice for many people. I’m biased as I have one, quite similar, but let me give a pros from my perspective:

- a traditional car feeling, knobs, buttons, the way cars have been for decades prior

- very very reliable. basically never needs anything except wiper fluid. no software updates or crashing. I don’t have stats but might be one of most reliable cars

- compact and easy to park

- compatible with comma.ai

- LeafSpy diagnostics to monitor it

- nice hatchback format with fold down rear seats

- ~220 mile range is plenty for around town use and trickle charge overnight

Overall I’m very happy with it and while constantly tempted by Teslas I think I wouldn’t like them as much.

Also CarPlay, which was on my shortlist of features I actually cared for in any newer car. Silly of Tesla to not support it out of the box (IMO).

I thought not having Carplay was a dealbreaker, then I tried shopping other brands and they wanted $15 to $25 per month for remote start, so I went with Tesla. Plus Tesla had dash cam recording, which somehow no one else has yet? And of course, don’t have to deal with a stupid dealer with Tesla, just bought sitting on the couch at home.

Anyway, not having CarPlay has not been an issue. Although, it would have been nice to have.

I’m picking up mine today from repairs. Some kids crashed their ute into me and left me fake details (I found them anyway via OSINT). Since I have full video insurance waived excess and going after them.

CarPlay is trash tho. Had a rental again last weekend. It’s core feature - google maps wrapper - is just barely useable. Sure it does other things, but it’s not worth the hassle.

CarPlay is much better than the alternatives.

After dealing with Tesla service, I’d also put having a large and varied dealer network with potential third party service locations as a plus for the Leaf. The word potential is doing a lot of work here - having competitive service options is still an EV issue, IMO. But Tesla service is expensive and difficult to navigate. Texting with a mechanic can work, but a quick 2 min conversation with a person would have saved me multiple headaches. Part of the cost issue may be the ways the cars are built vs the actual shop costs, but parts costs for repair are likely to be higher for a Tesla, even with volume. I suspect getting a Leaf serviced should be easier/cheaper.

Tesla parts are notoriously cheap and you aren’t forced to use Tesla service.

Could also have bought a used Chevy Bolt in this price range, with CCS, ~250mi range, and CarPlay.

For some reason when I charge at public chargers a very common vehicle next to me are those Chevy Bolts. If you’ve never compared them side by side you will be surprised, the Leaf is a MUCH nicer car, the Bolts just look way cheaper and lower quality vehicles.

I also don’t get this CCS drama, I have yet to come across an actual fast charger station that doesn’t have CHAdeMO in addition to the CCS connection. Maybe in my area of midwest all the charger stations were installed during the dual standard being the standard.

The 2026 Bolt moving to the Ultium platform may also improve some of the interior quality (because the battery platform will be cheaper again). It is probably a couple months still before we can easily test drive one to get a good feel, but I am curious to see what they do with the new model, especially because GM is especially returning it to be their cheapest EV.

I drove both before I bought the Bolt. The Leaf does have a nicer interior. While I wouldn't say it's a huge gap, it was noticeable. But the Leaf also felt heavier and more sluggish. In the end, the extra range, the CCS charge port, and the better driving feel (at least to me) made me prefer the Bolt.

I’m wrong about CCS, can’t edit this long after so replying here to myself to clarify.

I’m dumb, of course I always see CHAdeMO because my charger app is set to that for DC fast. Duh … a friend said unset filters and yeah there are more CCS DC fast.

Yeah, in St. Louis metro, I think there are only like 2-3 CHAdeMO chargers, period.

On the trip to Chicago, I only see 4 plugs on the way, and those are all at dealerships... which often have cars parked in front of them, so I can't really rely on those being available :D

I’m looking on the Chargepoint App and I see some CHAdeMO DC Fast in both Springfield and Bloomington. They tend to be in strip mall parking lots near Home Depots and Walmarts.

That said having a CCS adapter working is very interesting and I will be following your experience as I have similar a Leaf to you (2021 SV Plus)

https://github.com/geerlingguy/electric-car/issues/9

I am very happy with my 2021 Leaf. It’s a very solid around town and commute vehicle. Anyone comparing it to Bolts doesn’t understand the Nissan build quality is just much better, Leaf is in a different league of design, refinement, and reliability.

One thing I would recommend is a set of winter wheels and tires if you’re in St Louis.

I’m on the fence about buying a comma.ai Comma 3x to try with it. The ProPILOT Assist built in is pretty helpful on long distance highways and the Comma 3x adds a bunch of interesting capabilities. My hesitation is partially insurance related, I’m not sure what Geico will say about it if you’re in an accident for example when it was engaged.

fwiw I’m confident after reading your post and watching you video you made the right choice for you and your objectives.

The Bolt EV has 100 miles more range and IMO a better interior.

Safety rating and HEPA air filters?

Tesla isn’t excellent with kids in back either.

NHTSA crash ratings for the Bolt are slightly better than the Leaf. I don't know about the HEPA air filters.

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