Meanwhile your children are absolutely going to find a way to get that content regardless, likely in darker corners of the internet, exposing them to much, MUCH worse content than if they would have just gone on the good old hub (plus actual predators) while also making it basically impossible for you to control instead of just making it a firewall rule away from locking it yourself instead of letting the government do it.
Alcohol is a perfect example as well, because I personally drink it only occasionally but would very much rather see it completely banned, as I think it would solve a lot of problems with society. In reality it likely wouldn’t, but the gut feeling is there. If I were to blindly follow my instinct and not know history, I would call for a total ban on it to protect the children.
The same is happening here, but at a much more dangerous level.
As someone who has been a kid, I would call such restrictions "performative" rather than a "good idea".
I'll advocate for freedom of speech but I don't want to have to listen to everything.
Alas, I have no choice in the matter, but I would very much prefer I did.
While I understand some content HAS to be regulated (CSAM) doesn’t mean everything has to be, because inevitably that will devolve into the government policing wrongthink.
Nobody is preventing you from filtering out at the client side whatever it is that you don't want to hear.
That said, I think the showdead setting in HN is good to have, so you can still opt to see content that would otherwise be filtered.
Except that's exactly what is happening when the "moderation" is mandated by law. Which is the topic of discussion here.
But yes, in a world where "moderation" is mandated by law, there'd be no alternatives.
Because these are ultimately excuses for spying on adults
Kids do not only have access to their own devices (for one, these days schools provide them with devices that parents have little say over often with only trivial filtering). And that is assuming the best case scenario where parents have the technical know-how to put in place non-trivial limits. Most don't.
And frankly, I don't give enough of a shit about other peoples' kids to believe that internet usage should require identification like is being pushed by major governments. I want good things for these kids, I want them to grow up in a good society and a good world, and I dont want harm to come to them. But I recognize that a "good society" and a "good world" and one that minimizes harm to people is one where information is available without restrictions and without censorship and without the risk of a government that might decide it wants to commit genocide against you in the not-so-distant future using your search history to persecute you. Pardon my riffing off Flowbots' Handlebars there, but this really is the world that people live in today; powerful world-stage governments want to restrict information about topics they do not like, and are persecuting people who posess this information; the next steps are very, very well documented.
Creating the monster we are watching grow is not worth anything anyone could ever promise you.
If porn was the only thing getting affected, I would gladly support all these surveillance tactics, every single one of them. Porn and prostitution in general is riddled with trafficking, drug addiction and other forms of exploitation.
The reality is that what's at stake here are things that (unlike porn) are not harmful to us, but very important to us. Like the ability to have a free space for thought and information sharing without the oversight of anybody else, not least a potential adversary. This defence is very important against a tyrannical state.
But let's ignore all that and instead make it about children's right to "explore their gender and sexuality" on the internet. This is what I saw some guy arguing a few days ago.
Until we can decouple those things, banning porn has the effect of criminalizing LGBTQ lives.
Children can also be groomed over text messages, should we let the government read all our text messages now?
Children can also be depicted wrong in photos, should we let the governments of the world have access to our photos so they can check for themselves if that is happening or not?
(both are hypothetical questions, the answer is no of course not. This is the responsibility of the caretaker in their life to guide them safely through the world.)
It’s not like the internet was censored when I was coming up, and I don’t think less of kids today than I do of myself.
Kids stumbling across something when browsing innocently isn’t really a major issue, and if they seek it out: they will find it, you won’t stop them, kids are smarter than you think (just, immature and unwise).
The best method, honestly, is for parents to be forethcoming..
however you have now successfully reframed the discussion into “what about the kids”, when in reality it’s about getting everyone’s ID so that they can better enforce their draconian internet comment laws… the government even outright said this. https://archive.is/3pave
if the government really cared about protecting children, they would’ve made a freely available child protection software that anyone can install in their home network, or subsidised its deployment at ISPs as an advertised opt-in.
I'm mid-late 40s and the internet was not really there when I was growing up. Someone ten years younger than me would have much more porn available to them, easily, in the home during their formative years. But even since then it's likely become more pervasive and present by an order of magnitude, and people have connected devices with them all the time in a way they wouldn't have back then.
We also have lots of academics saying that porn is changing attitudes to sex and what is acceptable behaviour (the rise of choking, for instance).
So it seems reasonable to ask the question, not whether today's kids are vulnerable to harms we weren't vulnerable to, but have things changed significantly in the intervening years?
Note - I'm not defending the clusterfuck that is the OSA. But the world is not always as it was.
I’m 35 now, so in the 00’s I had my entire pre-teen and teenage years.
My brother and sisters are 26, 28 and 33- we aren’t worse than our parents (we have 3 different mothers between us) or grandparents from a mental health or moral perspective; and we were all exposed to liveleak and 4chan in various ways.
I’m not sure how else to measure to he honest with you.
The thing is, the tech and infra for this is already out there. For example DNS services that offer adult-website filtering. The cost to implement this at the ISP level really wouldn't cost much (at at technological level).
Is it? Children viewing porn has been a thing ever since the invention of the printing press, or at the very least, ever since the first Playboy got printed.
That is not that new either, BDSM has been a thing for decades. "Histoire d'O" for example came out in 1975, the literary work it's based on is even older. And the panic back then about these books is exactly the same kind of bullshit we're seeing today.
> The question is how to prevent that harm without depriving adults of their rights and liberties, not whether such a thing is harmful to a child's future ability to form healthy relationships.
Teach your kids about sexuality from early age. That also helps cutting down on cases of sexual abuse - think of all the clergy and sports trainer scandals. A lot of these failed prosecution or went on far too long because the kids lacked the vocabulary to describe what happened to them, or didn't recognize that what they went through was wrong.
The problem is, anything veering into this direction is immediately attacked by Conservatives, religious extremists and the likes.
But decades ago it was not possible to reach content like that in a few seconds, using magical device we carry 24/7.
Parents now would probably be arrested and their kids end up in foster care for giving their children a similar education.
What did not exist in that that time was the avalanche of extreme content that has become mainstream and accessible to the point that it would even overwhelm my own parents' teaching methods, let alone those of most parents who were much less open or equipped to have such conversations.
I encountered BDSM porn around the time I was 12, and was groomed over IRC by an adult posing as a minor who wanted to have sex (this was 1992). That person sent me VHS tapes in brown boxes through the mail. I can't stress how extreme and unusual this was at that time, and I'm lucky I had the parents I had.
My rationale for thinking that this is a problem is that (1) most parents do not prepare their kids for this, and (2) such a thing becoming commonplace is a massive societal burden that will result in psychological damage not just to individual kids, but to their own offspring and to society as a whole.
Letting children see nude pix in Playboy and explaining to them how sex works has been considered taboo and borderline abuse since I was a kid in the 80s, but my parents did it anyway. I agree with you that educating your kids is the best way to protect them from real abuse. But in this context, the outside world has to be considered all groomers and abusers. The world is full of pedophiles and people who want to take advantage of others. Porn sites and the infiltration of extreme BDSM into the mainstream are examples of this. I stress that it's fine for adults and no adult should have their private lives pried into by any government. I'm just saying that there is a real problem, societally, with allowing kids to be exposed to the lusts of random people on the internet, and that problem will compound over time until you have a society like Russia or Appalachia where everyone is raped at 12 and rapes children when they're adults. In other words, a death spiral.
> The violence of what is today mainstram porn would have been extremely fringe
I want to push back against some of this comment. I would argue that for non-boomers, today's mainstream porn is most likely OnlyFans, where women have greater control than ever over adult content being created. > Seeing a woman being gang raped, choked and beaten
This is a tiny, tiny fraction of adult content. The rest of your comment reads like "clutching your pearls" to me.The thing is, in the UK, porn websites are already blocked by default by most ISPs and mobile networks. Only the account owner can unblock that content, either by calling the provider or by changing something in their account settings. And yes, you'll need to verify that you're an adult if you signed up to the service without providing them with details (possible with some mobile providers).
This has been the case for the past 10 or so years, so why exactly do we need this age verification stuff?