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Comment by Nextgrid | Hacker News Reader

The Swiss public transport ticketing system. Their app uses location services to automatically determine your fare, so you don’t need to buy tickets in advance: https://www.sbb.ch/en/travel-information/apps/sbb-mobile/eas....

As a bonus there are no ticket barriers so no queues and no overheads of maintaining those machines.

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What an Orwellian nightmare. These systems require real-time GPS data.

Just as buying a ticket with cash is becoming increasingly hard in parts of Europe, I can see a near future where having a phone sending constant GPS updates becomes a requirement (a requirement in an strict sense, or the sense that the alternative is unreasonably cumbersome or more expensive)

Tss...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_beast#Mark_of_th...

Furthermore: Nostradamus, Mühlhiasl, Alois Irlmaier, Baba Vanga

They all had something to say about universal tracking of movement in general, and payments especially. Depending on interpretation, of course. But visions and trips can be hazy and vague. As can be translations of very old texts.

For instance, that (mark of the) beast can also mean just a (new(emerging)) thing, not a literal animal.

Which in this context can mean anything from credit-/debit-/chipcard/smartphone/bar-, QR-code/(implanted or otherwise mandatory)RFID, where without that you can't do a thing.

The new passport, revokable anytime, for any reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ID2020 , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You'll_own_nothing_and_be_happ... , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Secrecy_Act , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspicious_activity_report , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer which on paper look all very good und justified.

But... when you are cought as bystander in some dragnet, or your accounts are canceled by some zalgorithmic system spasm, the banks have (mandatory)internal systems which forbid them to give any information about why to the affected person.

Which also can be (ab)used to silence/disable/cancel politically divergents/misfits, whistleblowers, etc. Triggered by their political enemies.

Brave new world, isn't it?

You don’t have to use this (awesome) system.

You can buy tickets to the trains and trams everywhere.

I acknowledged that in my comment, and didn't claim otherwise

Sending GPS updates from the subway?

At least on iOS, it doesn't access the GPS directly. It asks the OS for updates to the device's location with a certain degree of precision. It's up to the OS to blend various sensor data (GPS, cellular, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth beacons - the latter is used underground to get a good position fix without a line of sight to the sky) and send that to the app. If it was using GPS continuously it would drain your battery very quickly. So if the device can get a good idea of its location via Wi-Fi/Bluetooth, it will not even bother turning on the GPS.

I see a vulnerability in that - spoofing location data is not hard. I really hope this doesn't lead down the path of transport operators introducing DRM-like rootkits, but unfortunately the concept of relying on data from devices owned by the user is always going to be at odds with preventing dishonest use. I'd much rather use a smartcard which, whilst tamper-proof and not modifiable by me, is separate from my own devices and personal data.

There are many public transport systems that are not a subway. There are trains and buses that are wholly above ground, for example.

Yes, but underground systems are a substantial part of many mass transit networks, and even for those that aren't underground, GPS connection can't be considered reliable. Anyway if you are scared of Orwellian nightmares you shouldn't use public transport anyway as there are CCTVs everywhere.

Queensland, Australia introduced state-wide $0.50 public transit fares a year ago, and it’s been a raging success. Conveniently, this also eliminates the entire problem class of needing to calculate fares. Mind you, for those unfamiliar, QLD is a state 2.5x larger than Texas, 5x larger than all of Japan, 7x larger than Great Britain, and is bigger than all but 16 countries.

I guess size is a factor but also population density, does QLD have way less people per sq.m and does that make it easier to implement stuff like this?

QLD population density is something like 2000x lower than that of Tokyo…

Our public transport systems are so bad.

The Brisbane airport rail connection runs about half as many train services as the Perth airport, which seems about half the amount of travellers each year as Brisbane airport. It’s crazy, double the fare burden, half the patronage, and stuck in a monopoly contract until 2036.

Don’t even get me started on the stupid busways, gimped light rails, the new “metro” and the endless amount poured into the motorways that they have been widening one lane at a time for 3 decades…

More than that (which is an amazing feature, don't get me wrong) is the fact that there is a single app for every public transportation system in the country.

Compare that to Italy/France/Spain (those that I know) where, depending where you are traveling to, you have to download, sign in, and give your credit card details to N different apps in different states of disrepair/being barely maintained.

Virtual credit cards (I use Revolut) that I then delete mitigate that, but still, what a mess.

In The Netherlands you just tap your card when you get in and when you get out. the fare is computed based on how many stops you went. No app needed. Supports all the virtual cards too like apple pay etc...

Frankly the Swiss system is far superior.

The Netherlands has a great train system except for the god damn turnstiles blocking the entrance to the train station.

They are not needed.

FWIW I live in Switzerland and work a lot in Netherlands.

dumb question but what happens if you forget to tap out ?

You likely get charged from where you got on to the end of the route.

Couldn't you leave with a friend have your friend get off at the next stop they scan both cards while you travel the entire route?

Sure but scenarios like those are a rounding error

I believe Copenhagen has this too now. I visited in the same week they were launching the system (last year?) and it worked perfectly. All you had to do was press a button on your phone as you enter and leave the station and it automatically calculates what you owe. I loved it. It also worked throughout all of the different train systems.

Whenever I use that one I forget to check out then bike half across town several times over and at 3 in the morning I get a huge ticket.

I don't understand how so many tech-minded people on this site completely disregard the value of privacy. How is this a win?

My expectation of privacy when in a vehicle with dozens if not hundreds of strangers with cameras is low.

I'm a bit confused - how does this differ from something like The Tube in London where I tap on and tap off and it'll charge me based on the entry and exit points and whatever the appropriate "zone" travel I did was?

Certain parts of France and Germany, that I know, use something similar for regional trains and buses: FAIRTIQ

It’s the same. FAIRTIQ is a Swiss company

This. It also caps your fares in a day to the cost of a daily ticket, so you don't get overcharged.

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