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Comment by dragontamer | Hacker News Reader

As I suspected, the problem seems to be Stripe and Paypal as this information comes out.

I kinda feel bad for the call centers and the legion of Reddit/Twitter users who were mislead by a few random meme protest .gif files. But I already learned my lesson back during the Reddit Boston Marathon bullshit: the crowds are stupid. Don't trust the hype, don't trust Reddit Posts that cite other Reddit posts that cite a tweet. Wait for real info.

That being said: Visa and MasterCard have been dicks in the past and somewhat deserve attention. I'm just a bit sad that this particular case is turning out to be more of a Stripe/Paypal issue instead as it means a lot of energy has been misdirected.

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I've still got my Discover card so that if the real call for action ever comes, I'm ready to move off Visa/Mastercard. But people need to seriously fact check their work before hyping an internet brigade next time.

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As I suspected, the problem seems to be Stripe and Paypal as this information comes out.

I'm not convinced that VISA and Mastercard are totally hands off about content and that Stripe and Paypal are going against their wishes to enforce content restrictions completely on their own.

https://old.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/1mf7uei/steam_update...

And did you read that?

Mastercard never talked to Steam directly. That means all the discussion about Mastercard (from Steams point of view) is practically hearsay.

Meanwhile, we have itch.io being VERY clear here that it's Stripe that has a no-porn policy. That gives us a DIRECT cause. And Stripe ALSO admits that they don't allow porn on their payment network.

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Has Steam even said who their payment processor is yet?

> Has Steam even said who their payment processor is yet?

Steam definitely support PayPal in some areas, but their consumer terms and conditions don't disclose whether they use an intermediary for handling card payments.

> as it means a lot of energy has been misdirected.

Mastercard was involved* in the censorship of Steam games, according to Steam’s statement quoted here:

https://www.thegamer.com/steam-adult-game-ban-valve-says-mas...

So whence “energy has been misdirected”?

*: Yes, we can quibble about who was “actually responsible”, were the various intermediaries overzealous, etc., but it’s enough to note that in the counterfactual where Mastercard doesn’t have a rule 5.12.7, there is no censorship of Steam in this manner.

Or... the payment processor lied.

I guess we'll find out really quick if itch finds another processor.

I mean, I can buy porn right now with my MasterCard. Do I need to start posting links as proof?

We all know that the issue is with the categorization of the transaction. MasterCard/Visa has higher chargebacks and thus higher costs associated with porn. When Stripe focuses on non-porn they can get much cheaper pricing. When Itch.io buys cheaper fees from Itch.io, they get smacked due to some porn being on the payment network.

So now itch.io is realizing the 'price' of Porn and we will see if itch.io decides if it's worth the cost. Especially because CCBill or whatever is going to be a % higher on all transactions (including non-porn), it's likely that it's only efficient if itch.io makes a 2nd website for ONLY pornographic games or something.

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It's.... really messy and muddy. But messy / muddy situations don't make good little memes or call to action on Reddit/Twitter.

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I am still pretty sure that Visa/Mastercard are problematic. But if this is going to be a sustained push, people need to be much much smarter about the information and also need to direct their energy efficiently. You can't just call up the internet mob like the boy who cried wolf.

I think the message needs to be about the power and control of Visa/Mastercard and payment processors to cut off free speech in general. Porn could be a good starting point for free speech discussion and seems to come up as a practical example often. But we still need to get the details correct otherwise we risk making fools of ourselves.

I agree with you. I think you read that wrong.

The processor lied about Mastercard's involvement. It's par for the course in my experience that processors always try to offload blame on someone else. Then Mastercard saying explicitly that the decision wasn't made at their level.

I imagine you have had the same week of yelling at the wall on this issue I have.

> I imagine you have had the same week of yelling at the wall on this issue I have.

Does a multinational company worth half a trillion dollars really deserve your personal, emotional support? I think they’ll be just fine no matter how fervently you support or oppose them.

I have no love for mastercard, I just have a distaste for misinformation. I want to see the blame go where it is deserved, the processors.

You are clearly the one emotional about this.

I think it’s justified to be upset about a payment processor fucking around with one’s legitimate and completely legal passive revenue stream.

Then Mastercard saying explicitly that the decision wasn't made at their level.

You put much more trust in these companies than I do.

The worst were the people saying to harass Itch despite Itch also being the victims. I even saw some of them, when corrected about where the actual problems stem from, just say that "companies are not your friend" line and get super mad at the people pointing them away from attacking Itch.

"When the shit hits the fan it doesn't distribute equally".

The payment processing system is so complex and opaque even people in the industry rarely understand anything outside their little corner of it.

People are going to be angry at the most visible parts of the ecosystem.

Itch is clearly making the effort and I suspect they will come through with a new processor ultimately. They surely have enough business that processors that handle adult industry will most certainly negotiate beyond their typical rates. Especially considering the nature of the bulk of their business isn't directly adult oriented.

Payment processing being opaque, heavy handed, and restrictive all started with the patriot act, and until it's gone payment processors can't be the dispassionate processors of transactions people expect.

It's very strange that porn is the thing rallying people to dismantle this nonsense.

Then why the weak sauce denial from Mastercard? They could have denied much more than they did, and had every incentive to do so, but chose not to rule out allowing anyone acting on their behalf enforcing rules that they wrote, and chose not to deny taking any action in response to social media campaigns they were certainly aware of and were explicitly named in. They offered no explanation as to why they had rules on their books that, according to their statement, they have no business enforcing.

If the crux of the issue is that everyone has arranged a system where nobody has to take responsibility for anything, none of what you’ve said absolves Mastercard (or Visa) of any guilt.

> Then why the weak sauce denial from Mastercard?

https://www.mastercard.com/us/en/news-and-trends/press/2025/...

> Mastercard has not evaluated any game or required restrictions of any activity on game creator sites and platforms, contrary to media reports and allegations.

This seems like a rather strong refutation of the discussion.

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> If the crux of the issue is that everyone has arranged a system where nobody has to take responsibility for anything, none of what you’ve said absolves Mastercard (or Visa) of any guilt.

Stripe has literally been saying no porn on their network since the freaking start of this controversy with Itch.io.

It’s really not. They’re saying they didn’t do it themselves, but aren’t ruling out it being done by proxy, which is exactly what Valve are saying happened. Actually, it’s a triple weasel, since they also didn’t evaluate any games, they went off unverified 3rd party reports, and aren’t targeting ‘game creator’ sites, but game distribution sites. It could be a potential quadruple weasel, since they could have not ‘required’ any restrictions, but presented such onerous alternatives that it was a de-facto requirement that still fell short of the strictest definition of the word.

And yet there is still porn on Steam, so clearly this is more than just Stripe.

Steam is on the record that Mastercard literally never interacted with Steam on this entire controversy.

The entire discussion is between Steam and it's payment processors. And Steam, for whatever reason, hasn't publicly shamed (or discussed) who those payment processors are who were pushing these rules.

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For now, we can rest assured that Itch.io case is being well discussed. We see it is Stripe and Paypal for Itch.io and unless conflicting news comes out, I'll assume the same for Steam.

That is irrelevant. The payment processors are enforcing Mastercard’s rules, and explicitly state as much. Mastercard don’t need to ‘interact’ with anyone if they have intermediaries willing to do so on their behalf. Mastercard’s own rule 5.12.7 /is/ conflicting news. It states that they have sole discretion, so there is little chance of any partner invoking it against Mastercard’s wishes. Just in a non-interactive way that only ends up with a few turbulent priests getting put to the sword.

Then why can I buy porn with my MasterCard right now?

Answer: because the company I buy Porn from uses CCBill, not Stripe. You know, like what the article says Itch.io is looking into.

There are specific payment processors for pornography. This is accepted because everyone knows that Porn gets more chargebacks (Hubands often have to chargebacks and pretend they didn't buy porn when their Wives find the charge). So there's a large degree of customer fraud in pornographic purchases.

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Like Steam, Mastercard, Itch.io and even stripe themselves are pointing out: the problem is solidly the payment processor. Or Stripe in this specific Itch.io case.

Done. Now when another Manga / Doujin Library gets banned for too much porn on behest of MasterCard, that will be the time to complain. But for now, stand down. This issue is becoming a boy cried wolf like overreaction. Especially as the facts are finally coming in.

That’s moving the goalposts. The fact that Mastercard doesn’t even apply their own rules consistently is another, arguably even greater problem that you would probably be better off not mentioning. Stop deflecting and explain why Mastercard lied by omission by claiming they don’t do something that their own rules clearly state that they do. If you can’t do this, you’re not interested in the facts, you’re just whiteknighting for a poor defenseless international megacorporation with veto power over a huge portion of the world’s economy.

Is it really so hard for you to understand that Stripe is a different company than MasterCard and that Stripe also has a large degree of control of this situation?

That's my point. Stripe is at fault in this exact case.

Okay, you’re being deliberately obtuse here. More than one party can be at fault.

Also: Having failed to answer a simple question, I conclude that you concede the point and that your position is logically inconsistent. Please continue to post as it only continues to make you look less reasonable.

Lulz.

You have literally no response to my Stripe point despite multiple back and forth.

You know, the Stripe point I brought up in the very root comment at the top? And every time I try to guide you back on topic you've ignored my efforts and tried to talk about something different.

You aren't even talking about Itch.io this entire time despite the article and topic.

But yeah, take your win. I guess I'm too feebleminded to keep up with your gymnastics.

The campaigns have been consistent about labeling Stripe as a problem.

Well I'm sure the legion of underpaid Visa/Mastercard help desk operators feel cool about that. /s

Did Stripe even HAVE a call center for the internet mob to protest at?

They made it very difficult to reach a human being, but yes, they do have a call center.

I've been following this protest for a bit out of curiosity (because I really do think Visa/Mastercard is problematic).

But almost all the Reddit posts or Tweets I've seen are about Visa call centers or Mastercard call centers. The number of people protesting Stripe is miniscule in comparison (if there even is anyone to begin with).

> I kinda feel bad for the call centers and the legion of Reddit/Twitter users who were mislead by a few random meme protest .gif files

If you think it was just a few image memes, you really haven't been paying attention. Check out my post history here for better information than you currently have on how credit card companies are definitely contributing to this problem, if not a critical link in the chain that causes this problem.

Personally, I believe that the problem is upstream of credit card companies even. The problem is with activist investors with far too much influence, able to bully the CEOs of Visa/MasterCard/etc. to accomplish political outcomes.

> But I already learned my lesson back during the Reddit Boston Marathon bullshit: the crowds are stupid. Don't trust the hype, don't trust Reddit Posts that cite other Reddit posts that cite a tweet. Wait for real info.

Reddit is a hotbed of misinformation, especially when tensions run high. I have been surprised by how frequently tech people develop a blind spot for Reddit’s low quality. I think it’s because Reddit feels like the internet from 10 years ago, especially if you use old.reddit.com .

It’s basically TikTok for text and thumbnails, though.

It's because us old dogs have grown up where Wisdom of the Crowds was actually a hype concept and we still (mistakenly) believe in it.

It's hard for us to learn new tricks. The hope is in the next generation to figure this out...

It seems weird to use stripe/paypal at that scale rather than having direct merchant accounts with the card issuers. Why would they do it that way?

I fully agree with you with regard to Reddit misinformation. However, to the extent that a boycott on Mastercard and VISA would be successful, I believe it would have almost the same effect on Stripe and PayPal. If it's PayPal and Stripe that are actually responsible for this deeply unpopular policy, but Mastercard and VISA that are getting all the bad publicity, then Mastercard and VISA are not going to keep dealing with PayPal and Stripe!

These kinds of intermediaries can be very convenient for both the merchant and the consumer, but they are not essential for most users. Indeed most of the hurdles in the way of merchants accepting payment by card directly are artificially created by VISA and Mastercard themselves, so it's within their control to loosen the rules and sideline PayPal and Stripe.

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