The listed salaries were not that far off from what even the local McDonald’s was paying
It's one of those "reset" things you need to do now and then, because it's really easy for an industry like CNA or similar to end up paying less than the gas station for more annoying work.
However, I don't think anything that's happened in the last 5 years has helped that. If anything, the inflation has cost everyone dearly, but if I put 20% of my income into stocks I am less impacted than poor people who put 100% of their income into goods and services whose prices have gone up as a result of everyone's wages.
It sounds great in theory. But a black market quickly developed, and people figured out ways to circumvent it. People created tickets for their own teams and shared laptops.
But that's not what they are; they're shady "avoid employment laws" companies.
the problem is that there's still a guarantee of service for the user regardless of what you bid. if i want my burritos delivered at 2AM and am only willing to bid $1 on delivery labor, i shouldn't expect that my burritos will be delivered.
for tips, the model is "the work will be done and i'll pay extra if it's good". but with bids its "how much do i need to pay to get this work started"
How does this work? The corp already handles some form of payment to the worker, especially when you tip as part of a card payment. And in both cases, the consumer foots the bill.
How's it different from paying the worker more and asking for more money upfront?
While 10% was customary in the first half of the 20th century, the standard tip gradually increased to 15% by the 1980s.
In 2025 it's not uncommon to see little shortcut buttons for 20, 25, 30%. You can see where this is going. They want us to tip 50% and they pay $0, even though restaurant menu prices are one of the things that has experienced more inflation than other things.
It is my understanding that this is literally the origin of tipping.
After the abolition of slavery, there were many black people newly looking for work. And, there were employers looking for workers, but unwilling to pay money to black people.
So, someone got the idea to promote that tipping was something fancy European aristocrats did. And, you can be fancy like they were by tipping my workers (that I refuse to pay).
Tipping was previously seen as un-Americanly classist. And, most states tried to ban it when it started to pick up steam. But, it was too late. So many employers were enjoying unpaid labor that the bans were repealed.
Later, when Minimum Wage was established, workers who lived on tips alone were almost all black. So, unsurprisingly, tipped workers were excluded from the wage regulation. And, today they are only acknowledged as fractional minimum laborers.
I spent 10 years in the food service industry working every position. The whole thing is racket, and the narrative used is carefully worded.
Huh, why should I know this at all. I read the prices online or in restaurant when I enter in. I will assume that as my cost of food.
That's the crux of it. All surcharges are scams designed to trick the customer into thinking the meal is priced lower than it is. Sales tax not built into menu prices is a scam that the government is at fault for allowing. All other surcharges including the socially-obligatory tip and the scummy "health care surcharges" common in California, are scams that the restaurant is choosing to do. All of these are insulting.
It's no different than telling women I'm 6' and then when they meet me revealing that's only when I'm wearing cowboy boots and a big hat.
I have always been a generous tipper and I try to always put myself in that person's shoes when deciding how much to tip but even I notice the psychological difference. If you don't ever think about it, have never had a job waiting tables or dealing with the public, it'd almost be a nonstarter to have a higher delivery fee regardless of tip expectation.
I'm not saying it's free but it's not a foregone conclusion that 100% (or any percent) of that cost must be passed on to the consumer.
If a manufacturer/distributor/restaurant is willing to accept lower margins for the increased reach and market access, they will.
Besides economists think positively of this so it has support not just from interested parties but officials, think tanks etc.
Are there still customers giving tips as "a reward for good service"?
I'm trying to imagine a curve representing the distribution of "quality of service".
What shape is the curve, and where on it would a 20% tip and a 0% tip be?
As in any tip at all? No, from me. I don’t think I’ve never _not_ tipped when the situation expects it (sit down restaurant being served). I know the person there is being paid less than minimum wage (where I live), which is already too low in my opinion, so they get something.
The amount of the tip certainly is highly dependent on level of service. That could be a significant difference at the end. I’ve tipped over 100% when the staff has done someone that stood out to me.
(Having been a server in the past and now in tech, I feel guilty about the work-level/salary imbalance, so I am generally generous with my tips.)
The restaurants I worked at (a variety of family places and bars) everyone was paid $2.13/hr or something like that. And after taxes, you would get a paycheck for $0.00.
but
The same people who jumped to tell you that they got paid less than minimum wage (especially when customers inquired about it), were making $40-80K year in reality. The service industry is all about hours worked, and which hours you work. A lot of young workers refuse to work the busy shifts (weekends), and hate dinner shifts (could be out with friends) so they only work the slow shifts and make ~$20/hr * 18 hours or something like that.
But the people there to make money? They work all the busy shifts and slow shifts to fill the gap (they work a full 40 hours), and the money is insane for what the work is. Meanwhile they will happily tell you they get paychecks for $0.00 and only made $50 on Monday at lunch.
Sad if this is no longer the case.
In the UK at least (and the rest of Europe too, as far as I can tell), this is still very much the case. The curve varies with the individuals tipping. I would be quite happy to give 20% if the service was outstanding. I’m equally happy to not tip at all if the service was very poor.
Honestly, this seems good overall; there's no more sense in having low-paid waitstaff hanging around hoping to get a customer table that will tip than in having a restaurant owner keep the restaurant open while paying the staff a reasonable hourly wage.
I can confirm in Italy almost no one will even accept a tip. (Taxi drivers, wait-staff, hotel staff)
Yes, that is the basic tip if you expect to come back to that restaurant and get an upgraded welcome.
But even with no tip, being a regular counts - tip or no tip, you are good business and worth cultivating.
Except for the very pervasive 12.5% "discretionary" service charge the you would have to request to be removed. Which is a genius piece of social engineering.
OT but the kind of bank that charges £25 for something like that is almost certainly robbing you blind on the exchange rate, too.
In the US I usually tip but have refused to do so when the service was especially bad - although even then its a hard decision because you often don't know who is actually responsible for the bad service.
I have certainly starred them in the eye and waited for them to ostentatiously count out every last penny when the service was truly abominable. It's a fairly effective way to give feedback.
You can also of course round up higher, so in the previous example for exceeding expectations you could round up to 400.
Are there customers giving tips for other reasons? Any examples?
(Incidentally, this is also one of the reasons why the costs of eating out in the US and seem so much lower. Most people who come from non-tipping cultures don’t understand that Americans actually tend to pay significantly more than sticker price, especially after you include taxes, which are also often excluded).
https://plus.maths.org/content/information-surprise
> Shannon wanted to measure the amount of information you could transmit via various media. There are many ways of sending messages: you could produce smoke signals, use Morse code, the telephone, or (in today's world) send an email. To treat them all on equal terms, Shannon decided to forget about exactly how each of these methods transmits a message and simply thought of them as ways of producing strings of symbols. How do you measure the information contained in such a string?
Sorry, this is definitely not the case. Many times the worker is doing exactly what is needed and nothing more (eg: pour a beer in a glass, handing me a pizza). Why would I be considered an asshole if I didn't tip? That is ridiculous.
As other people have said, tipping in the US has really become obnoxious. I definitely tip while seated for a meal, but asking for a tip to hand me a cup of coffee, pour a beer, etc only makes the system worse.
Why would employees in front of a counter be more deserving than employees behind a counter?
Or perhaps I should put it like: Why would a business need to pay a predictable market rate salary for employees behind the counter, but not for employees in front of the counter (because you step in and provide it instead)?
The the waiter/waitress had to come to my table, discuss the menu, provide feedback on questions, submitted order to kitchen, delivered order, checked back on us to see if we need anything else, etc. Level of interaction with staff > 1, level of effort from staff > 1. Tip appropriately if level of effort > 1 for helpfulness, politeness, attentiveness, etc. Stop making this so hard.
If anything it seems to me that it would be more logical to tip the person doing the more boring and repetitive work.
(My personal opinion is that tipping in general is a blight on a modern society and something that belong in primitive third-world economies. The way to fix this is via legislation: we simply make all forms of both receiving and giving tips illegal. It probably won't take much enforcement to quickly shift the social norms and economic practices once the wheels get rolling).
Tipping isn't just a social thing, there are real physical punishments for not doing it!
LLM, please create a techno-finance solution to this social problem, inspired by historical precedent for defending royalty and other high-value individuals against food poisoning.
Non-technical solution: move to a location with high social trust, e.g. neighbors and workers know and support each other socially and economically.
Wait, what??? Do you honestly believe the worker pours a cup of coffee in a to-go cup, hands it to me, checks the receipt for a tip, then grabs it back to spit in it? What kind of delusional thinking is this? How does the food delivery person even know the tip amount before the receipt? This kind of thinking is exactly why the system is so out of hand.
Lots of places will now ask for tips before the food comes out even in person now - lunch sandwich shops, etc. I don't think they'd be unprofessional enough to mess up your order if you didn't tip, but maybe they'll be happier with you or be more generous if you tip now too.
> 0% tip is risking stuff
There are more numbers between zero and good! Markets depend on information. Price has been information for centuries.
The insurance industry has actuarial lessons for managing risk. The delivery app industry has a range of policy measures for managing delivery performance, including but not limited to refunds and blacklisting workers from serving specific clients.
That's the only way people give tips here (not US tho)
Yes.
This makes your order sit longer until someone decides to do it, perhaps because there's a penalty from the company for declining jobs, and the driver is willing to lose money to remain in good standing
Surely you already know that choosing things doesn't always simplify down to a single dimension. Instead, there are multiple factors that lead people to deliberately choose options that have negatives.
E.g. Why do people continue to use Ryanair airlines if they always nickel & dime customers and treat them like shit?!? Because the mistreatment by Ryanair is still better than driving for 6 hours or paying more $$$ for Air France or KLM.
Likewise, why do customers continue playing along with the tips/bribery/ransom game in the delivery app?!? Because the user-hostile app is still better than rounding up the small toddlers and infant into the car, fasten the car seat, and drive to the restaurant.
Life doesn't always provide unambiguous good options. Instead, you choose the "least bad" from the list of bad options.
The tips on the apps nominally do go entirely to the driver.
Why, where else would they take the food? Leave in at the patio? Drop it on the lawn?
The app has different options for meeting in the lobby / come to my unit and I always select my unit, but whatever, I get why they might not do that.
There's quite a lot of places people will think to leave food if they're rushing to pick up another job.
Drivers can tell if you don’t tip and all of the experienced ones will decline your order.
Though these apps have done a lot of work to conceal the amount the driver actually gets until delivery is completed.
Americans need to remove the idea of tipping. It's archaic, because it was originally there for an aristocratic/wealthy patron to show off their status to the lowly servants of an establishment.
Just charge a price, and have it include the full service fee required for providing the service.
IMHO, this isn't a new phenomenon. Close to 18 years ago, I lived in a city with a popular pizza spot that was about a 10 minute walk away. Normally I'd walk, but having a newborn make that challenging, so I'd get delivery.
Typically, the delivery would take 60+ minutes on a busy night, but after a few consecutive Fridays of a decent tip for the order, the pizza would arrive "burn your fingers" in about 20 minutes.
Markets have prices.
Open markets have transparent pricing for efficient discovery.
Concealed prices in deniable auctions are closer to dark pools than open markets.
It doesn't help with situations where drivers are multi-apping (accepting orders across multiple apps and juggling them). The drivers don't even know you have priority.
edit: and in the US where you can definitely see the tip up front, you will almost always find that the order will get picked up quicker if you increase the tip by the equivalent of the priority fee. But you may well get stuck with a delivery before yours.
It's wild because this happens maybe 10-15% of the time for me when I don't choose priority, but it's around 80% when I do.
I ignore the option now and just bump the tip if I want a chance of better service.
we can literally get the state to say it is illegal for the point of sale system to have that or sell that to merchants
we can tie it to business codes that dictate which type of business it is to payment processors
control behavior by regulating the intermediary
the beauty of this philosophy is that it works under any system of government: don’t worry about the rights afforded to merchants or individuals, don’t burden them with the law at all, only intermediaries!
poof, tips at the point of sale system before receiving service disappears as fast as it came, short Square (now Block)
we can go deeper too
Consider it a premium that prioritizes your order, that’s what it actually is.
(Uber started to pop up tip options before the ride ends, sometimes as soon as the ride starts.)