It’s crazy that this still happens in the US.
Tipping is a thing of the past. Pay for your meal and have the restaurant pay their people for their work. End of story.
Tipping is a thing of the past. Pay for your meal and have the restaurant pay their people for their work. End of story.
I'm from Europe, and have traveled here extensively. Tipping is pretty rare, but for the past maybe 5 years, almost all new payment terminals have the tipping option.
For example, just make it a requirement that the default tip is 0% in point of sale systems.
American business software, American movies, American YouTube channels. They will inject American problems and solutions into your country, like it or not.
Microsoft may treat your privacy slightly better because of the GDPR, but those invasive systems are still there, toggled off. Waiting for Microsofts lobbying to chip away at the privacy laws until they can turn them on.
In my state an employer is only responsible for raising an employee's effective wage (for the entire pay period) to minimum wage if the tips don't.
You can tip someone working as a waiter $100 and unless they've already hit minimum wage for that pay period, all you're doing is handing $100 to the owner because it's $100 they don't have to pay in wages. Once the waiter has met minimum wage, then the money actually goes to them.
I hate pretty much everything about tipping. The onus shouldn’t be on some fucking customer to determine if a server makes rent this month.
I really hate that pretty much every payment terminal asks for a tip now.
Of course, a living wage in California is quite a bit higher then even our above-average minimum wage, so that's a big part of it.
Note: I don't care one bit if someone wants to recognize an exceptional act by handing $20 to a worker -- that's great. That's not the same as giving a bartender $4 for spending 12 seconds pouring vodka and redbull into a glass or tipping $3 when I stood in line to order at a counter and came to fetch my food when my number is called.
I don’t think tipping would continue without a way to demand tips or shame people with prompts.
It even has a name.
It is also not "tip" anymore, it is just "whatever pays the most" gets the service. It is just to maximise profit out of suckers, something US have perfected (from insurance to fast passes).
That's assuming the employer values that above-and-beyond-ness, of course. If not, they won't give that raise, and employees will eventually settle on a level of service that the employer is paying for. If that's good enough for the customers, that's fine. If not, that's an opportunity for a competitor to pay employees more so they'll serve customers better.
Customers should not be put in the awkward position of feeling like they should be augmenting people's wages, even if it's on top of an already-sufficient living wage. Wages paid is a negotiation between employer and employee. Customers should not be involved, beyond paying the listed or contracted/agreed-upon price.
For the most part I find the food gets to my table at some point but I'm rarely particularly happy with customer service. It's sometimes an awkward negotiation to get their attention or to ask something. The opposite was true in my time living in the US - soft skills, fast response, engagement are standard. And I've been on both sides of that in food service.
Now, the logic of what youre talking about makes perfect sense and I agree with that in principle. And yet there is something about dining that is somehow different. Escapes that definition.
There are also times I find that exchanging money is more honest. I want you to serve me, I'm paying you, I don't have to keep at the back of my mind a question whether I'm asking something beyond what your boss expects/pays you. I like that about the US - it's brutal but that's reality.
Don't get me wrong, I live in EU for a reason, but some things here are made unnecessarily complicated and oblique too.
I call tipping the "A*hole discount" because only someone who is comfortable being seen as one would consider tipping 0% or even 10%. And servers will tell you that if you receive terrible, horrible, very bad service you should never tip zero, you should speak to the manager instead (since yadda yadda, the tips are for everyone, you don't know whose fault it is, etc). So instead of tips being a way to reward good service, it's actually just a discount reserved for people who are so uncouth that (A) they don't care if everyone at their table thinks they're an ass, and (B) they don't mind taking food off the table of low-wage workers (very low in states that have the horrible policy of a lower "tipped" min wage). Do those people really deserve a discount?
But isn't this describing tipping? You're having to ask yourself, "Is this service good enough for a tip? How much of a tip?" instead of just exchanging money for the service and that's it.
I had more fun and more satisfaction working in food service in the US than in the EU. There was also more real opportunity right there on the spot to do the thing and get more.
Like yeah, you're having to ask yourself and that's friction. But shouldn't there be a friction when you're being served by someone who is an equal? I've seen folks treat service like garbage in the EU because that exchange obscures the fact that there is an exchange of money. And I've seen service fall back on apathy.
But this is just one way to look at it - ideally it should be exactly as you describe - good service, simple exchange at specified price and confidence that the service is adequately paid for the job.
Only issue is that even in the EU this is often not the truth and restaurants would never ever afford to actually hire full-time employment contracts.
Interestingly, I arrive at an entirely separate conclusion - there is no way for equality in a relationship in which one party holds your financial security (for lack of better words) in their hands. How can the waiter be your equal in that situation, when they might have to act just to ensure they can make the money they need?
So, I'm not sure how to best construct a system not open to "guilt gaming" in this way, but I would like to see one.
Imagine yourself catering someone and then having them talk about how great that is and wanting to pay you for that. Not in abstract but actually, in practice. It nails down the servant role, frankly. It feels abhorrent to me, even if you get numb to it over time.
From my perspective, tipping is a socially acceptable way to establish classes. Which itself is a terrible practice and the people catering you aren't your servants.
I used "catering" in this comment as a placeholder for any job that receives tips.
It is like any job where people get a bonus because they have gone above and beyond.
This is normally on top of any bonuses for performance that the employees would get and their living wage which is guaranteed.
I'm too autistic to be playing these games and figuring this shit out. I'm glad I don't live in the US.
FTFY
(I mean, actually I agree with your point too; but personally I think tipping is much more unfair to the employees than to the customers.)
People say this, but what is better service?
It's not like you get better or more food, or get the food faster since all that depends on the kitchen that isn't getting tipped directly.
It's pretty much them coming to your table to take your order. I'd much rather have a free burger or drink (the equivalent of what I could get instead of tipping) with the slow service than get my water refilled every 5 minutes.
Oh, trust me, go to a decent place, be a regular, tip decently (not even extravagantly), you absolutely get looked after. For instance, several of my usual lunch spots my usual fountain drink is often "water" on the bill.
I just don't think of a way you can have tipping and it not create perverse incentives like that.
Yeah, they lose on the unit, but they make it back on the volume!
How are you both new to a city/place and they already know your name/usual before you've even tipped? Do they send runners out ahead with the information?
Definitely the next time I come back.
Restaurant workers should earn a good wage. Tipping should not be mandatory. But tips, in particular large tips, are fine and work globally.
Not mutually exclusive :)
I do both. And I don’t always leave a large tip. If I’m having a good quarter or year, I’ll share it. If I’m not, I can’t.
At the end of the day, they’re running a business and I’m a customer. If we’re friends I’ll buy them dinner (and they’ll comp random stuff).
You should send a thank you note to the owner!
Quick summary:
- Tipping results in lower pay for certain genders and races.
- laws that protect employees don't apply to customers. Your boss can't make inappropriate comments and pay you less if you complain. But if a customer makes inappropriate comments, its perfectly legal for the customer to pay you less if you reject their advances.
As I said, tipping shouldn’t be mandatory nor required for someone to make a living serving, frankly, relatively wealthy people and experience.
If someone owns a restaurant, I can show gratitude by coming more. If my clients like me, they can show gratitude by giving me more business. If a server does a great job independent of their employer, a tip is a good way of showing that.
(That said, if a group of employees has agreed to no tips, they should refuse them and one shouldn’t push.)
> If a server does a great job independent of their employer, a tip is a good way of showing that.
The problem is customers perceive "great job" more often when the person is from a certain race or gender or body shape. This creates an inequitable environment.
Why?
I was nice to people because that was my job, but when I've travelled to the US I have definitely seen entitled customers treat staff like shit and claiming it's their right because they were tipping.
Tipping as standard should go out the window, it just drives customers to be assholes.
> Why?
I was just curious about how OP's experience informed their perspective.
The service industry in the US is awful, and the tipping culture is really toxic. I don't understand those that defend the American approach.
Completely agree with this position. I didn't mean to say that removal of tipping would solve the problem, more that it is an enabler of toxic behaviour. The more opportunities provided, the more likely assholes will be emboldened causing a normalisation effect both in them, and others around them.
It has never been about the money really. The only exception I remember was when I was upset about the way my bank processed my paycheck and yelled about it in my early 20s (my bad, I didn't know how depositing checks at an ATM worked but I ought to have). But usually it's because I felt insecure or disrespected in some way (which wasn't, to my memory, reasonable. It wasn't what the kids call a "valid crash out".).
For instance, it really gets under my skin when I am talking to technical support on the phone and they try to blame the problem on my running Linux. Argh! If it was Linux I wouldn't need their help! I'd either fix it on my own or ask some help forum.
I don't know how much that translates to the larger phenomenon, I'm not even talking about face-to-face interactions anymore, but that's my two cents.
I see this a lot (not specific to HN) - some person doesn't like $THING, so they just declare that that thing is bad, or "a thing of the past," or whatever.
Most seen on reddit but seems to be becoming commonplace on here as well.
I see this a lot - some person doesn't like a phrase ("a thing of the past"), so they just misread it and take it clearly the wrong way.
You won't find a single non-barista in the US who thinks it's reasonable for Starbucks to solicit 20% for someone pouring your coffee into a cup. But restaurants have tried the "don't tip our waiters" thing in the US and it doesn't work.
When I do go to a restaurant that has tipping, people are usually nice to me as well, but I don’t feel like they’re really any nicer or better at their job than my local Taco Bell workers.
People in Australia are still doing it for the money, even if you don't realize it.
They don't HAVE to be, but they also don't have to do a bunch of unnecessary stuff to play the tips game, like fill up water that's barely empty or check in on how you're going all the time.
Maybe people in America like a "service heavy" experience, and the only way to get it is tips?
Interestingly enough, I find the service worse in the U.S. Part of the reason is that the tip system leads to waiters wasting time talking about a table, and waiters who aren't your own feeling like they don't have to do anything for you. It usually takes me 5-10 times longer to pay the check in the U.S. than it does in some other countries.
I wish restaurants started offering self service sections where you could order by phone and pick up the food yourself. Having to use waiters gives me the same feeling as when I drive through New Jersey and I'm not allowed to pump my own gas.
Happy employees who earn good salaries would not submit to ass-kissing and degrading work.
Knowing this is what makes the often terrible service in the Netherlands a bit more tolerable :)
If you need to pay people to be pleasant to you, that's a moment for introspection.
Sometimes you don’t want good service - as in, you don’t want a server to talk to you. That’s a lot easier to find here.
There's a huge list of people you interact with daily who don't get tax free tips. Why are they less valuable than restaurant workers? That was my question.
I tip 0-10% where I live. Just like most Americans tip 15-25% but the first 15 are just eaten by expectation. There is zero difference except that 1) my menu shows actual prices 2) wait staff have a living wage regardless of tips or how busy the restaurant was that day.
Beyond that, I personally find that leveraging someone's economic desperation to coerce deference out of them is disgusting. Give me staff who have the option to walk out without material harm, and choose not to.
However, the whole restaurant experience is made by many people: dishwasher boy, prep boy, shef, cleaning lady, etc.
They should tip to cleaning lady as dirty toilet can ruin whole "experience".
This statement is just not factual without some qualification. Where I live, and in the US in general, tipping is not a thing of the past. You can say you wish it was, you can say it should be, but what you said is not factual.
Food deliveries (similar to Uber Eats in the US I suppose) have the option to tip, and 100% goes to the courier. 200 HUF (0.57 USD) is the most common amount (as per their website[2]). We do not use percentages.
[1] It varies and might not be universal.
It's also why "knowing a guy" can be useful, tradesmen coming in on their off hours to do a job for cash.
Eh? I don't know if you consider Poland eastern europe(I don't really), but I tip with a card all the time in Poland, you just ask "hey can I leave a tip on the card" and they bump up the amount by whatever you want to tip. And no, the amount doesn't then equal what's on the receipt - I don't know how they work it out internally, but frankly that's not my problem.
I was not referring to Poland, but Hungary. What gave you the idea that I was referring to Poland? :P FWIW, I do speak Polish though, and I have many Polish friends.
I didn't have that idea, I'm just saying that in Poland I've never had any issues tipping with card and since you said "eastern europe" I wondered if you consider Poland eastern europe. That's all.
I use "Eastern Europe" when I am referring to Hungary only because people typically think that Hungary is in Eastern Europe. Perhaps I should stop doing that and just use "Central Europe", since it is them who are incorrectly believing it is in Eastern Europe.
I'm from the UK and travel in the US a lot and US service is much better. I've never had to chase up the check or had to go and search for staff to serve me after sitting there for ten minutes. These are common occurrences in the UK for me.
Ideally, tipping wouldn't exist and everything would be priced in, but pragmatically, incentives grant extra benefits to both parties. Potential for more money for the server, better service (and the ability to punish bad service) for the customer.
(I know everyone making similar observations is getting voted down, so I appreciate I may simply be far off the bell curve on this and the majority experience the total opposite. But it's my reality.)
I've had these things in the US. In fact the service generally I've had is all for show, people being really "fake nice" and / or overbearing but then forgetting drinks or food items you ordered.
At least in the UK you can genuinely not tip someone without worrying about them being unable make rent..
Good service is common in industries where tipping doesn’t happen. What makes restaurants special that their workers can’t provide good service if all of their pay comes from their employer just like everyone else’s?
For that, you need the restaurant employees to be organized in a strong, independent, non-corrupt union; or a highly-upstanding restaurant owner/manager.
The latter is sometimes the case, but often/usually - not.
So, former is rarely the case, I'm afraid, because working-class consciousness in many countries is lacking; and forming a union is hard; and restaurant staff have a lot of churn, so by the time you get the idea to do this, or have started work on it, you might be going elsewhere.
But regular restaurant clients taking owners to task about wages is definitely a thing to consider...
- have a liveable minimum wage - force restaurant owners to pay at least that
period
I don't know of any other fast food place that does that.
Not sure you know what tipping is, but it's not paying for the meal. It's paying for the service.
1. I like being able to pay for better service
2. Despite what people like to think, everywhere in the world has appreciated tips. I've never had a waiter refuse extra money. Literally dozens of countries, you get better service if you tip.
It's remarkable what little you consider "proper".
Taking one of these items out of the cost and trying to charge it separately is a strange practice.
1. Places where service workers are paid peanuts or nothing and tipping is considered mandatory
2. Places where workers get a basic actual salary and tipping is rather voluntary (and can be more or less expected)
3. Places where tipping is not an actual practice and can make things awkward even, depending the amount.
In reality, 2 is a spectrum between 1 and 3.
But I do know this is still the case in Japan. Some Japanese service workers or small business owners will even be insulted if you try to tip.
It's absolutely not. Have you actually been there, or are you repeating things?
https://www.reddit.com/r/JapanTravelTips/comments/1cyj0nu/ti...
Yes, yes, "but the price on the menu says..." Whatever. If you're in the U.S., it's normalized that the price you actually pay is 20% higher, assuming they treat you well. Restaurants don't typically print the tax on their menus either, and yet no one tears their hair out over having to pay sales tax, and various city taxes, etc etc.
The service is so, so much better in the U.S. because of tipping. Tipping culture is good.
Tipping sucks and your taxes suck too. When I see that something costs 15€ on the menu then I expect to pay 15€ and nothing more. How can you be happy about surprise taxes? How can you plan your spending when you don't see how much something costs and you still think this is superior?
Having said that, on the occasion when I've been in places like that and I really was in a hurry, no one has looked at my funny or seem put out when I've flagged someone down to ask for the check.
Second, what you and me consider to be good service is probably quite different.
It is sometimes absurd. In the UK there's an often an extra step of "oh, you're paying by card? let me go back and bring the card reader". Some places have just one reader shared among all waiting staff, so you're not going to get it faster unless you tip enough to make the staff wrestle for it.
I like the Japanese style the best — there's a cashier by the exit.
Maybe when you come to Europe adjust to the culture. In Europe you don't eat with the clock in your hand so you can run off too the next meeting while you're still chewing. This isn't bad service, it's part of eating out that you don't storm off and take your time.
An ordinary European restaurant doesn't work with the tempo of a McDonalds, that's a feature and not a bug.
We're in the middle of a thread in which hundreds of Europeans are complaining about American culture, which is to tip at restaurants. In fact, the original post I responded to was:
It’s crazy that this still happens in the US. Tipping is a thing of the past. Pay for your meal and have the restaurant pay their people for their work. End of story.
I think it's a little ironic that when an American complains about European culture — which is to be slow — suddenly there's a bunch of tut-tutting from Europeans about "adjust to the culture" (and you're not the only one!).
We're in a thread where people are debating the relative advantages of different cultural practices. I think America's practice of tipping has distinct advantages that make it better. And no, you're not "eating with the clock in your hand' or whatever in America: is just that when you want the check, you get it.
We tend to avoid touristy areas, though, when we travel, so maybe that explains the better service. If I had to work in a service job that caters to tourists, I'd probably be less happy too.
That's nonsense. In the UK if the service is good I leave a tip. If it isn't then I don't. From my (limited) experience in the US it looks like you have to tip regardless. If that's the tipping culture then that culture is rotten.
>>The service is so, so much better in the U.S. because of tipping.
Honest question - do you consider waiters who ask you if you need anything every 2 minutes "good"?
>> The service at restaurants everywhere in Europe was at best mediocre
What's your opinion on restaurants in Poland? Was the service better or worse than in Spain? How was it compared to Czechia and Slovakia?
I've got great and shit service in Europe.
I've got great and shit service in the US.
Tip/no-tip hasn't been a factor.