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Comment by aerostable_slug | Hacker News Reader

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I don’t even know if the claim is true or not, but “easily debunked” is a pretty strong statement. How would you easily debunk it?

Easy debunk: ICE is a federal law enforcement agency. Entering or remaining in the country illegally is, by definition, illegal. ICE agents are law enforcement officers, not "deputized Proud Boys." Federal law enforceent agencies like ICE have recruitment and training processes that are well-established and documented.

https://www.ice.gov/about-ice https://www.ice.gov/careers

The masked ICE gestapo bunch refuse to identify. You can't prove that they aren't "deputized proud boys" if they won't identify.

Do you have evidence of federal law enforcement officers refusing to identify themselves when making an arrest?

please, if you use instagram, follow @uniondelbarrio and @lataco - they often repost videos of kidnappings in progress.

i have seen many such videos, and not once have i seen any evidence that ICE agents are identifying themselves.

If you've seen many such videos, certainly you can produce one where the officer refused to identify themselves, right?

unfortunately most sites like youtube etc are blocked on my work network, but i did already give you a couple of sources to find such videos.

there's also discussion of legislation against this behavior here: https://fox40.com/news/no-vigilantes-act-introduced-in-an-ef...

another source (LA Times) which mentions the lack of identification: https://web.archive.org/web/20250702182237/https://www.latim...

the mayor acknowledges this. city council acknowledges this. if you're talking in good faith, it's time to acknowledge this.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ICE+refusing+to+identify

Plenty of articles out there... go read for yourself.

There's no federal law requiring officers to give you their name or badge number. It's a myth they have to do so when asked, just like it's a myth cops have to tell you they're law enforcement when asked during a sting operation.

All they have to do is assert their authority, and they don't even have to do that on a particular timetable. If you don't like it, tell you legislator to do their job and change the law.

There was already a case of a copycat dressing in a mask and tactical gear and "asserting his authority". If they don't need to identify, then nobody needs to identify. And if they don't identify then they are nothing more than a masked gang.

I'll also add that masks are illegal to use during crimes to hide identity - which is exactly what these people are doing. They are committing crimes by abducting US citizens and they are blocking due process and they are exporting people to foreign 3rd countries. What they are doing is against the Constitution. We will track down and prosecute these people after this fascist regime is over, which is why they are masking and trying to hide their identity - they know what they are doing is illegal.

https://apnews.com/article/los-angeles-lawsuit-trump-adminis...

> There's no federal law requiring officers to give you their name or badge number

Well then since federal agencies are now abusing this letter of the law in complete bad faith and contributing to this disruption of the general peace, it sounds like it is up to state governors to tackle this epidemic of masked gangs of thugs running around and abducting people - order state and local law enforcement to interrupt any and all masked gang activity and arrest the perps (and order their national guards to deploy if additional force projection is necessary to restore law and order). If it turns out a given gang was acting under "legally valid" federal authority to carry out "legally valid" federal actions and therefore has immunity (and wasn't say a drug cartel hit squad emboldened by the general disorder), that can be sorted out and verified through due process in the courts. States owe no less to their citizens.

So debunk it??

Have we reached a place on HN now where we're asking people to prove negatives, just because it aligns with our collective politics?

It is fine to say there isn’t evidence for something. For some reason the poster decided to invite this challenge by calling it “easily debunked” instead. A debunking is specifically a claim that there’s evidence that the original claim was wrong.

This is just a form of gish galloping [0]. Like I alluded to, it's disappointing that discourse on HN is at a place where enough of the participants are supportive of this as long as it's happening to the "other team."

> During a typical Gish gallop, the galloper confronts an opponent with a rapid series of specious arguments, half-truths, misrepresentations and outright lies, making it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of the debate.

See also Brandolini's law [1] if this feels familiar:

> The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law

It is not any more effort to say “It is an unsubstantiated and unprovable rumor that ICE has deputized proud boys.” It is also a much more accurate reflection of the level of confidence.

If you call somebody’s claim “easily debunked,” that’s a proactive offer of counter evidence. It isn’t Gish gallop to accept that offer of counter evidence.

Anyway, where else is the conversation supposed to go? The post had the offer of an easy debunking and no other content.

This is not something that can be or should even need to be "debunked". It is the responsibility of the government to act in a way that engenders trust of the citizens. For example, not deploying roving gangs wearing masks and refusing to identify themselves while purporting to act with government authority. Surely you can see how this destroys the rule of law, regardless of whether those are 30 year career civil servants who just now happen to be wearing masks, or some newly-formed lynch mob.

In general, the government justifying itself to citizens is called leadership. This "government" does the exact opposite across the board, and compensates with divisive propaganda that nurtures loyal all-in extremist followers.

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