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Comment by Throwaway42754 | Hacker News Reader

I have schizoaffective disorder, induced by a bad trip from marijuana. It was like the 3rd time I had tried weed, and I naively took too much.

For me psychosis feels like pattern matching going on extreme overdrive, while at the same time memory goes to shit. It's truly an awful illness, and what's worse is that the current medical treatments are bad. I've been fortunate enough where I can get by on a low dose olanzapine, but for many people they simply don't work at all.

Even though I'm doing well enough to function normally and hold down a good, well paying job, it's impossible to find a partner. If I were to have kids, I would have to go through one of the embryo prescreening services. I am strongly in support of these screening services - the disease is truly horrible.

There has been little progress on treatments for schizophrenia, the mechanism of action of these drugs has remained the same for decades. The side effects are almost as bad as the disease, which is why so many schizophrenic stop taking them. The only novel medication recently released is Cobenfy, which I have not tried yet.

Personally I am holding out hope that schizophrenia has some basis as an autoimmune disease. There was a cancer patient who had a bone marrow transplant and ended up being cured: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/29/opinion/sunday/schizophre...

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I have family with that.

The most striking thing, is the absolute certainty of the thinking. They feel as if their thinking is crystal-clear, and that they are the only one that "sees the patterns."

Currently, they're doing well. I know of others, that are not so fortunate.

It seems that pot is about the worst thing that a schizoaffective/schizophrenic person can use. They are better off chewing tabs of acid. I've not used it in about 45 years, and I've heard that today's pot is a heck of a lot stronger than what I remember.

>It seems that pot is about the worst thing that a schizoaffective/schizophrenic person can use. They are better off chewing tabs of acid.

from the guys I knew who chewed the tabs of acid and had evident schizophrenic problems, I don't think so.

Exactly. This well matches my hypothesis about how the brain works.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44347211

> It seems that pot is about the worst thing that a schizoaffective/schizophrenic person can use.

This isn't entirely true, and it's a dangerous misconception. High THC, low CBD cannabis wouldn't be recommended, but that's exactly what making cannabis illegal selects for.

High CBD, low/zero THC cannabis, on the other hand, will probably be one of the paths to treatment if we ever get over our Reefer Madness and pharmaceutical obsession.

"High CBD will probably be one of the paths to treatment"

On what exactly are you basing that off of? Vibes?

I wouldn't dismiss personal anecdotes any more than I'd dismiss someone claiming they saw something in a reputable journal but can't remember the citation.

In other words, yeah, don't just believe it at face value- but if you have good reason to trust the source, it's worth considering and checking into further.

In this case it's not just one individual but many people saying that THC and CBD are almost opposites if eachother, for example in how they affect anxiety.

Definitely worth proper research imho, could lead to medication that has more of the pros and less of the cons

Not trying to be glib, but this is a genuine lmgtfy moment.

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=cbd+antipsychotic&atb=v340-...

No it's not. The poster should have referenced some sources. CBD has been touted as a miracle drug for over a decade now and it seems mostly like a fad at this point. But also it's not well regulated so it's easy for unscrupulous companies and individuals to profit from misleading marketing around it.

> The poster should have referenced some sources.

Who, me? ... Why? It's very well known and established that CBD has antipsychotic properties.

And if you don't know, that and don't bring any evidence against it, then why claim otherwise before like, doing a simple search to check your priors?

In any case, I've provided multiple citations elsewhere in this thread, and a whole bunch more come up on the linked search results. This isn't hidden knowledge or anything.

> CBD has been touted as a miracle drug for over a decade now

That's a separate issue.

> it seems mostly like a fad at this point

If you click the link you can see that isn't true.

> also it's not well regulated so it's easy for unscrupulous companies and individuals to profit from misleading marketing around it.

That's a separate issue.

“Dangerous misconception”? Get out of here with that. Cannabis is dangerous for schizoaffective people. Why are people that smoke pot so tiresome about this? Just accept that it’s not good for everyone!

> “Dangerous misconception”? Get out of here with that.

I will not.

The demonization of cannabis has led directly to it becoming high THC and low CBD, as I said. It also has lead to it often being tainted with all manner of adulterants, from ketamine to glass beads to plaster dust to worse.

> Cannabis is dangerous for schizoaffective people.

CBD is a leading target of research for it's anti-psychotic properties; and if you don't know this it's a complete mystery to me why you feel entitled to weigh in.

And it's not even the only compound in cannabis that is being investigated; there are others with anti-psychotic and synergistic potential.

> Why are people that smoke pot so tiresome about this?

What if what I'm saying might be true, and you're dead wrong to accuse anyone who disagrees of being a 'tiresome stoner'?

... Because, in fact, it may well be [0].

> Just accept that it’s not good for everyone!

If it's not for you, that's fine; but the wilful ignorance around cannabis over decades has caused far, far more harm than cannabis ever has.

Can you accept that it will may well have a role in treating "psychosis, in general and schizophrenia, in particular" [0]?

0 - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22716160/

Legal competition had lead to much higher concentrations of THC than was normal in the bad old days of smoking Mexican brick weed, not to mention the pure accessibility of buying 96% THC vapes wherever you go in unlimited amounts as opposed to being happy you could get your hands on an ounce.

Eh, maybe. I can certainly say that I have "skin in the game." Someone very dear to me suffers from it, and it's difficult to hear theories from folks that don't have as much of a stake.

That's one reason that I have compassion for parents of autistic children, that are vehemently anti-vax. I completely disagree with their stance, but I know what they are dealing with, and the very real fears and stresses that they are under.

> it's difficult to hear theories from folks that don't have as much of a stake.

It's not a theory that CBD has anti-psychotic properties. It certainly does, we just don't fully understand why.

My theory is that it will someday be part of treatment plans; and as someone with skin in the game I would hope that you care enough to learn a bit more about it. The comparison to anti-vaxxers with autism in the family is not appropriate here.

> is not appropriate here

Actually, if the agenda of pushing CBD therapy applies, then it is. I know a number of folks that have autistic children, of various levels, from "nerd," to "wheelchair-bound." Their parents are usually absolute saints, regardless of their political views, or misinformation diets, and live in constant pain; making daily sacrifices that I don't think many folks here, can even comprehend.

We were discussing a serious mental illness, and, as someone that is a caregiver for someone like that, I think that my experience is relevant; just as someone who believes that their child's condition was caused by something that is really a red herring.

The real villains, here, are the people that have secondary agendas (like legalizing drugs, or pushing political agendas), and look at people like us, with very real pain, as nothing but pawns, to be used to push their agenda (Think of the children!).

CBD, like Blockchain, probably has some valid application, but, because it was so unexplored, scientifically, it is currently about 75% snake-oil. We'll find out what it's good for, over time. The same can be said for other drugs, like MDMA, microdose LSD, or psilocybin.

CBD has an antipsychotic effect. There's not really any debate on that in the scientific community, and I've already provided a link. That's not part of some sinister agenda to legalize cannabis, it's just stating facts to clear up the misinformation which at this point you are willfully repeating.

> The real villains, here, are the people that have secondary agendas (like legalizing drugs, or pushing political agendas), and look at people like us, with very real pain, as nothing but pawns, to be used to push their agenda

Your assumption that I don't also have personal experience, and a stake, and real pain with this issue is based on what exactly? Did I miss the part where you asked me about my own experience, or does your personal experience trump my own for some reason?

I do, in fact, have all three. That has no bearing whatsoever on the basic fact that CBD has confirmed anti-psychotic potential with particular regard to schizophrenia, as was already linked above.

Finally, there's no secret agenda here - cannabis should be legalized. It's just basic common sense and decency, for all the reasons I've already stated and more. Prohibition doesn't work and we have decades of data proving that beyond any doubt.

Have rates of psychosis shot up in states where cannabis was legalized? No, according to a massive analysis of 63,680,589 beneficiaries followed for 2,015,189,706 person-months [0]. So please, stop with the reefer madness. I'm sorry about your family member but if you want to help people you could really try looking at the data.

> I do, in fact, have all three.

I don't believe you. If you had, you would have led with it, just like I did. I value people that have skin in the game. Jenny McCarthy is a big fat pain in the ass, but she really does have an autistic kid, is a good mother, and has formed her worldview around that.

> So please, stop with the reefer madness.

WTF? I've never believed that crap in my life. Interesting that it's important to you, that I support that twisted worldview. You've mentioned it a couple of times, so it seems to be something that you're fixated on.

I do, however, have considerable experience with the fallout from drug use. I have spent my entire adult life, helping folks out, who have had their lives shattered by it. There are a small percentage of the population that can't handle drugs, and need help to recover from it. I do my best to help them out, and don't insist that the vast majority of the population change their worldview to fit mine.

Personally, I think that pot should be legal everywhere, including at the federal level (which will basically kill all the "mom and pop" operations out there, so be careful what you pray for). I don't use it, and don't care, myself. That doesn't make me an enemy.

I'd gently suggest that a professional forum, read by many of the most influential people in tech, might not be the best place to be a crusader for drug use.

> I don't believe you. If you had, you would have led with it, just like I did.

You really can't imagine someone arguing from scientific research over their own personal experience?

> Jenny McCarthy is a big fat pain in the ass

Again with the autism/vaccines comparison, again missing the point, again doing yourself and your family member a disservice.

> WTF? I've never believed that crap in my life.

You keep repeating the claim that there's no therapeutic value to cannabis. That's madness, my friend, by the very literal definition of ignoring reality.

> don't insist that the vast majority of the population change their worldview to fit mine.

That's exactly what you're doing though? You're insisting that people ignore the research which I've linked multiple times now, and adopt your worldview which is based on vague assertions and claims; and you insist that anyone would argue the same way as you're doing when that's neither true or sensible.

> Personally, I think that pot should be legal everywhere, including at the federal level (which will basically kill all the "mom and pop" operations out there, so be careful what you pray for).

Huh? I can't tell if you're insinuating I'm a drug dealer or what your point is here. I'm certainly not the one who made this debate about whether cannabis should be legal or not; I just pointed out that prohibition made it much more dangerous to consume.

> I'd gently suggest that a professional forum, read by many of the most influential people in tech, might not be the best place to be a crusader for drug use.

As has been pointed out by people above, you're the one on the crusade here. My point, which I've repeated many times now, is that CBD has shown potential to help people vulnerable to psychosis and schizophrenia. I don't know why that triggers you so hard, or why you can't engage with the research which shows that very clearly, but I wish you the best all the same.

The one paper you keep shopping around here does indeed affirm that CBD may have some neuroprotective properties. That doesn’t change the fact that for the vast majority of people susceptible to schizophrenia or psychosis, that cannabis (always a mixture of THC and CBD in its natural state) is dangerous for them and can trigger mental issues. You can feel superior or more intelligent than others as much as you like, but that will not change this fact. You are getting a negative reaction from people who know this because we have been negatively affected by it, either ourselves or people we know. If you yourself “engage with the research” beyond your tunnel vision, you will see that the link between cannabis and mental issues is pretty well established by this point. In fact, refusal to acknowledge downsides of cannabis use is one of the hallmarks of cannabis use disorder. Pluck the beam out of your own eye.

> cannabis (always a mixture of THC and CBD in its natural state)

Come on man, I've been explicit from the start that I'm talking about high CBD low THC strains. If you refuse to acknowledge that then you're wasting both our time.

> You can feel superior or more intelligent than others as much as you like,

Weird thing to throw out there. Do you often feel like people giving you more information is an assault on your intelligence or value as a person? Is that helpful for you? ...

> You are getting a negative reaction from people who know this because we have been negatively affected by it

By high CBD, low THC cannabis? Be honest now.

> If you yourself “engage with the research” beyond your tunnel vision, you will see that the link between cannabis and mental issues is pretty well established by this point

I never denied there's a 'link'. There's clearly a link, but to claim that it's well understood is a gross exaggeration, and insisting that it applies to high CBD low THC cannabis is an obvious lie (no matter how many times you repeat it).

> refusal to acknowledge downsides of cannabis use is one of the hallmarks of cannabis use disorder. Pluck the beam out of your own eye.

Now you're implying I have a disorder and a drug problem? Even though at no point have I "refused to acknowledge downsides of cannabis".

So, recapping: I posit that high CBD low THC cannabis could help schizophrenics. I provide multiple links to researchers in this field saying the same thing. And by doing this, you feel entitled to make to accusations of me being a drug dealer, having a substance abuse problem, a superiority complex and a mental disorder?

... It's not ok to talk to people like that. And yet you end all that with "pluck the beam out of your own eye"; as if I were the one casting judgment??

[https://i.ytimg.com/vi/eeEyVZiVW_M/hqdefault.jpg]

> The real villains, here, are the people that have secondary agendas (like legalizing drugs, or pushing political agendas)

The natural state of affairs is silence, as plants don't care about humans. The actual history of plant illegalization is inherently political, and inextricably racist in America due to Nixon.

I agree, except that the racism involved with prohibition goes right back to Day 1 with Harry Anslinger [0].

0 - https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=harry+anslinger+racism&atb=...

I agree, except that isn’t how you cite sources. What’s the point of that? I know how to search, thanks. I will treat every instance of this kind of “let me Google that for you” whether it has Google or not as a native ad and will flag. Please cite a source, or don’t, but either way, stop shilling.

Thanks.

> that isn’t how you cite sources

And this isn't an academic paper. If you want to learn about Anslinger, so you don't make false claims, my link is a perfectly cromulent starting point.

> Please cite a source, or don’t, but either way, stop shilling.

Not sure you know what shilling means - I trust you can google it if you don't? If you do, what is it you believe I'm shilling?

> Not sure you know what shilling means - I trust you can google it if you don't? If you do, what is it you believe I'm shilling?

The search engine you mentioned is who benefits.

We’re both right, actually. I don’t disagree with what you said, just the needless url you linked. I agree with what you said, but Nixon is also responsible for his racist words and recordings thereof. There were a lot of racists in history.

Can I ask how you are sure they haven’t had some novel insight that you just don’t currently understand? Like maybe they are bad at explaining but whatever pattern they noticed is valid?

I’m not defending them as I don’t know any details, I’m just curious how you came to be certain about your assessment.

I can't speak for the above person, but what the OP of this comment thread said also tracks with my own experience of schizoaffective disorder: when I'm psychotic, the pattern matching part of my brain goes into overdrive and not only does my brain erroneously fill in the blanks in sensory input (causing hallucinations), it does the same thing on an abstract or logical level with ideas and people. It's easy to fall into the trap of paranoid delusion when you feel like you're seeing connections between so many otherwise benign, disconnected things and events.

I think what really gets me is that despite my constant vigilance and skepticism toward my own thoughts, I simply cannot talk myself out of how truly real those delusions feel when they happen. I can even acknowledge how absurd they are, even in the moment, but I can never shake the feeling that they're still very, very real. It's so maddening. The best I can do is to just not act on those thoughts.

Maybe the above person's family is actually unearthing valid insights, but if they're prone to psychosis, in that state they'll be prone to finding connections, associations, patterns, and so on between things in a way that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It'll feel very real to them in the moment, but when they exit that state (if they do) they'll likely be on the same page as others in thinking those ideas were a stretch.

Do you take adhd medication by any chance?

I used to on and off in the past, but I found it made me more prone to mania, so I've since stopped. Why do you ask?

Stimulant induced psychosis is very common. One of the major side effects of those medications, just like their street cousin, is paranoia.

I don’t really believe in the dormant/latent argument because once you shift down to the underground (as in, entertain all possibilities, even the possibility that you share something in common with drug abusers) where people abuse drugs, there you can see just how common psychosis is.

The drugs fuck people up. Interestingly, after many years of laying off the substance, many do find their way out of the psychosis.

Many people are actually caught in this trap and don’t tell anyone because they are struggling between reality and their delusions and trying to present a calm face to the world. It’s often directly the result of the substance, but it’s allowed to fester in the person due to all kinds of reasons (”hey, I’m really going to confess this is the crazy shit that feels believable to me?”). By the time they are done wrestling with reality and unreality, often they are left extremely damaged from the ordeal psychologically.

I can't say I've experienced psychosis due to stimulant use personally, but I see what you mean. For me it's maybe brought on instances of hypomania a few times, but I get how it could trigger issues in others, especially in high doses.

My instances of psychosis outside of depression/mania tend to be triggered by stress. I don't use drugs or take any stimulant medications, but they still just happen sometimes. It sucks. I'm thankfully not in an active episode at the moment, but I do suffer on a daily basis from the "negative" symptoms of schizoaffective disorder (i.e., the symptoms that take away function, like anhedonia, avolition, alogia, etc).

Talk to them for 2 minutes when they are having an episode. The effects are not subtle.

It’s an extremely debilitating condition.

Schizophrenics do sometimes have novel insights. I've noticed that schizophrenics tend to be extremely talented at coming up with deeply cutting insults. Like, insults that will change how you see yourself forever. Something about high pattern recognition. Plus an ability to mentally "go there", to countenance dark things that other people willfully ignore.

I'm not certain, but, in the case of my family member, their "certainty" is that everyone is conspiring to kill them. As I am one of the "conspirators," I can assure you that they are dead wrong.

Also, in my days of yute, I was fairly profligate in the use of ... mind-enhancing chemicals, shall we say. They basically gave me the same exact certainty and "insight."

Once, I decided to write down the marvelous insight that I experienced, while tripping. I wrote a whole bunch of stuff in a notebook, and then read it, a couple of days later.

It was pure gibberish. Made no sense at all.

[EDITED TO ADD] I should say that I had the luxury of having two distinct states of mind, including a "control state," in which to review the ramblings in the "enhanced" state. This is not a luxury that someone suffering from schizoaffective disorder has. They have no idea that their thinking is off.

I wonder about this as well...like maybe there's some comfort in automatically "diagnosing" someone when they might see patterns or think in ways that challenge your priors..

EDIT: Imagine being powerful and wealthy and assured in your position in the Catholic Church and someone comes along and questions geocentricity and says you're wrong. It's a pretty easy leap to huffily say well, they are "mentally ill, crazy, delusional, paranoid"

all kinds of authoritarian regimes and movements certainly do this.

that said... you just have to have a conversation with someone experiencing psychosis. it's a totally altered state of consciousness, they are sensing and understanding the world in a radically different way. it's never just an otherwise normal person with a nonconformist belief.

> I am holding out hope that schizophrenia has some basis as an autoimmune disease

From article:

  Increasingly, researchers consider schizophrenia to be a “meta-syndrome,” encompassing multiple symptom dimensions/clusters and arising from intersections of diverse underlying mechanisms

So while autoimmune might be the cause for some people, other people have other causes?

As humans we look for a simple A therefore B story. Even then most people in my experience are either (a) poor at spotting cause and effect or (b) go into denial e.g. many political arguments

> kids, I would have to go through one of the embryo prescreening services

Have to? Do you mean you would want to? Or is there some compulsory force where you are?

I have schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type as well. And man when I have anything with THC in it I’m a basket case. Worst psychosis in my life.

He might be interested in looking up THC, glutamate and schizoaffective disorder. Here’s a good start.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-019-0374-8

It also makes you near unemployable as stress triggers the paranoia/psychosis.

Not for everyone. Many schizophrenics find their work calming and grounding.

Depends on the work. If it’s solitary work then yes, if it’s fast paced, social and stressful (like most high paying roles are) then no.

Sorry, it depends on the person. Elyn Saks is a law professor at USC who gives speeches to international audiences when she's not writing books - and she has schizophrenia. Her fame gives her a unique position: many people write letters to her. She's said that she's surprised by how many highly successful people confide in her that they have schizophrenia. There are schizophrenic CEO's, lawyers, doctors, founders. You just don't hear about them because they don't publicize their condition. Possibly because they fear judgment. Possibly because they want success on their own terms, to be simply a "successful person", not a "successful person with schizophrenia".

How do you know there are schizophrenic professionals?

This post convinced me to never try marijuana again.

I've tried 3 times, last time was a bad trip, I went into a very cold state (was shaking) and I was seeing random visual images every second. It felt like my brain was telling chat gpt to generate a random image on the fly none stop.

Anyways I was fine the next day, but I'm not trying it ever again if there is some risks associated with it. I took a low dose (half gummy).

Cannabis is not to be trifled with.

While other stimulant substances when used might also lead to psychosis, it is cannabis which stands out with the highest risk of a psychosis becoming chronic and developing on into schizophrenia.

Sources:

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimulant_psychosis

[1]: https://www.psychiatrist.com/jcp/substance-induced-psychoses...

Interesting, I had some really bad experiences with weed and the pattern matching thing strikes out to me as on these trips I experienced a ton of visual geomteric shapes and came to believe our intelligence is based on pattern recognition and spent 5 years, not to much avail, thinking about them.

Interesting link, thank you!.

One other possible immune system link is the relationahip between the parasite toximoplasis gondii to schizophrenia.

If I'm not mistaken that's the paper about that:

https://dbc.wroc.pl/Content/39095/PDF/1031.pdf

Interesting article:

https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/some-unintuitive-properties...

Why do you need to do embryo pre-screening for something that’s not genetic? Or do you think it still is genetic despite also thinking you know the specific trigger in your case?

Edit: are you thinking it’s genetic, but exacerbated by weed?

Everything is at least partially genetic.

We have a friend whose sister has it and she went to genetics counselors before having kids.

They told her that because her sister has it that her kids had a 20% likelihood of developing it. Obviously 20% is way higher than normal.

Be sure you understand what this means. 20% higher chance (of a 1% baseline) is vastly different from a 20% chance.

I think its pretty clear which case is being discussed. 20% increase in chance is not something to generally worry about.

This is through the grapevine. I thought they said 20% likelihood, not 20% higher likelihood. But this isn’t me and I don’t know the numbers well.

I do know that this woman chose to not use her own eggs for their child. And you would think that going from 1-1.2% would not make you do that. Perhaps there is another variable involved that I am unaware of. Her sister developed it after their parents divorce in her 30s fwiw.

That is much, much higher than I am aware of - and my mother's sister has schizophrenia so I did look this up a while ago. And the outcome so far is 0 cases in 25 nieces and nephews, all of us in our mid twenties or older.

From my understanding of the science, weed can trigger schizophrenia in the genetically predisposed. Schizophrenia can be triggered by other environmental factors, so the embryo screening makes sense to lower the risk of the child getting it as well.

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