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Comment by quonn | Hacker News Reader

I'll believe it when I see, say, a someone in a VW (or similar) driving across Europe without having to think about chargers, broken stations and cables, fiddling with different payment system card and having a screen that actually works safely (as opposed to long lags and not showing the required information).

The software is a terrible mess for most brands and the charging infrastructure as well. Tesla's competition still costs about 25-50% more. It will take at least another 5 years or longer for someone to catch up.

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FWIW I have a VW ID3. The specs in terms of range etc are largely the same as a similarly priced Mopel 3 standard range. Here is a comparison: https://ev-database.org/uk/side-by-side?i=2210,3186&h=a018a3... they're basically neck-and-neck apart from 0.60 times etc where tesla is slightly faster and better efficiency, but the VW gets slightly better range & bigger battery so it balances out. Both charge at max 175KW

At least in the UK, I've never had a problem with charging stations of payment yet - there are lots of stations (some now are "plug and charge" so you just plug and the payment is dealt with automatically, but those are currently rare but the rest pretty much all take contactless payments) and many now that are 350KW (which is way more than either my ID3 or the Tesla 3 can handle). Pretty much everyone now has settled on CCS as the "usb for cars" in Europe so that are no cable/adaptor issues to worry about.

The software on the ID.3 is ok. If you sit there for 20 minutes and fiddle with it yes it is not as smooth as using a modern smart-phone in terms of responsiveness. But really, 99% of the time all I am doing with it is changing the radio station or aircon for which it is totally fine. I've not used a tesla so cannot do a direct comparison.

> I have a VW ID3.

I have an ID4 so I can compare both.

> I've not used a tesla so cannot do a direct comparison.

That's all I need to know.

I've seen people doing trip comparisons with Tesla, Peugeot, VW, BMW and chinese EV crossing France between various cities.

All in all experience and complete trip time was more or less equal on all of them except for those who choose to use the cheapest charging network which host all its charging stations outside of highways.

Non-Tesla EV can charge on Tesla charging stations in EU [2] and Tesla charging stations are often located in unfriendly places with no commodities available such as toilets and take away food so very often non-Tesla networks offer a better experience.

All in all on lpng trips the choice of the vehicle doesn't seem to make a major difference past a minimal viable range. It is more about the charging network you choose to stick with and the potential app gymnastic you might be doing if you aren't sticking to one in particular. And the Tesla network doesn't seem to have in Europe the superiority it might have in th USA.

Well I've driven Tesla's many times as two of my immediate family members own one and I find the software absolutely terrible, it's the worst UX of any vehicle I've ever driven. The move to hide basic functionality, often safety related, in menus and non-standard places is terrible. On top of that they change the interfaces without warning and move things around. I've seen even the vehicle owners get stumped on how to do basic things like adjust the steering wheel position or set the windshield wipers correctly in the rain. Even Tesla's own online documentation was wrong the one time I went there after I was unable to figure out how to make a basic adjustment.

That company really loves form over functionality and mistakes gimmicks for features.

> Tesla's competition still costs about 25-50% more.

You sure about that? From what I've seen, each of Tesla's models have a competitor of similar category and range that's order-of €5k cheaper.

Even with that aside, there's also the issue that Tesla doesn't have a broad range of vehicles, and there's now a lot of other competitors filling all the various niches, which means if all you want is a cheap electric city car you can get that for €17k* and don't need to start with the, what is it, €42k for a Model 3?

* For a Dacia Spring: https://www.dacia.de/nci-catalog.html?model.code=S1E&sortKey...

There is also the much cheaper Citroën Ami for just under €8k, but that's more of a car-shaped object, legally a quadricycle, but even then the point remains that it's filling in niches that Tesla doesn't: https://www.citroen.de/modelle/neuer-ami.html

Chinese cars in NZ cost about 5k USD less than Tesla, but you also generally get less car - slightly smaller, slightly worse specs and of course average software.

Weird exemption is Korean cars that cost far more. Go figure that out.

I agree Tesla's narrow range of options is probably THE issue. Like it or not, a lot of people's car buying is irrational. Flash looks, unrealistic range, tons of custom options, old habits (Korean EVs still ship a fricking engine start button). Tesla is the most rational car purchase out there (average looks, tons of features, tons of automation, mass produced so parts a dirt cheap). Most of rational buyers already got one.

> Weird exemption is Korean cars that cost far more. Go figure that out.

This might be an NZ trade policy thing; in Europe, Hyundai has electric cars susbstantially cheaper than the cheapest Tesla.

> Like it or not, a lot of people's car buying is irrational.

Oh, I'm reminded, every time I see a Cybertruck on the road.

We're talking about Europe here. The choices are there. Around here (greater Paris) I see a lot of Chinese brands (BYD, MG, Volvo) and domestics too (VW, Renault).

Edit: I meant to reply to u/petesergeant above.

> The choices are there.

I have test-driven BYD, Volvo, VW and Tesla and extensively driving VW, Tesla and Volvo. Of course you see different brands, but it doesn't mean they are as good right now.

My response to your assertion that Tesla is the best EV on the market is “so what”. The other brands may not be ”the best”, but buyers have decided they are good enough for their specific needs and that is all that matters.

Isn't Volvo Swedish?

Yeah. Chinese too.

I don't understand.

I don't think people see the software as an intrinsic feature of getting from a to b - yet.

Charging infrastructure really depends. In the northern country the alternatives are great and even Tesla owners would likely use alternative charging infrastructure - unless they want to take detours to get to Tesla charging points.

There are very rarely any detours worth mentioning on highways anymore. I can confidently say this, because I regularly take trips across Europe, crossing 5 countries per trip (~3000 kms).

Yeah, clearly you either don't have an EV or have never driven across Europe in one. I have several times over the past 8 years and there's absolutely no problem with infrastructure or performance. And my car is old. Newer models are ordered of magnitude better in terms of charging speed, functions etc.

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