Tesla sales decline in Europe for fifth straight month as rivals gain ground
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They took something that was quite tidily styled and classy (IMHO) looking, and have made it into this weird horizontal slit thing that looks cheap and nasty, and feels at odds with the rest of the car's shape and massing. A real mess of a facelift I think - no one would willing pick that if they cared about what it looks like.
Most importantly, it differentiates the model y from the model 3. Before the facelift the y sort of looked like a bloated model 3 with the exact same design language.
I dislike the new look of the Model 3, though, which looked kind of cute and from the front somewhat like a Porsche and now looks sort of aggressive with the thin lights.
regardless - you do realize tesla isn't about the looks, but user convenience? No car comes close it's integration.
The software is a terrible mess for most brands and the charging infrastructure as well. Tesla's competition still costs about 25-50% more. It will take at least another 5 years or longer for someone to catch up.
Charging infrastructure really depends. In the northern country the alternatives are great and even Tesla owners would likely use alternative charging infrastructure - unless they want to take detours to get to Tesla charging points.
Edit: I meant to reply to u/petesergeant above.
I have test-driven BYD, Volvo, VW and Tesla and extensively driving VW, Tesla and Volvo. Of course you see different brands, but it doesn't mean they are as good right now.
At least in the UK, I've never had a problem with charging stations of payment yet - there are lots of stations (some now are "plug and charge" so you just plug and the payment is dealt with automatically, but those are currently rare but the rest pretty much all take contactless payments) and many now that are 350KW (which is way more than either my ID3 or the Tesla 3 can handle). Pretty much everyone now has settled on CCS as the "usb for cars" in Europe so that are no cable/adaptor issues to worry about.
The software on the ID.3 is ok. If you sit there for 20 minutes and fiddle with it yes it is not as smooth as using a modern smart-phone in terms of responsiveness. But really, 99% of the time all I am doing with it is changing the radio station or aircon for which it is totally fine. I've not used a tesla so cannot do a direct comparison.
I have an ID4 so I can compare both.
> I've not used a tesla so cannot do a direct comparison.
That's all I need to know.
All in all experience and complete trip time was more or less equal on all of them except for those who choose to use the cheapest charging network which host all its charging stations outside of highways.
Non-Tesla EV can charge on Tesla charging stations in EU [2] and Tesla charging stations are often located in unfriendly places with no commodities available such as toilets and take away food so very often non-Tesla networks offer a better experience.
All in all on lpng trips the choice of the vehicle doesn't seem to make a major difference past a minimal viable range. It is more about the charging network you choose to stick with and the potential app gymnastic you might be doing if you aren't sticking to one in particular. And the Tesla network doesn't seem to have in Europe the superiority it might have in th USA.
That company really loves form over functionality and mistakes gimmicks for features.
You sure about that? From what I've seen, each of Tesla's models have a competitor of similar category and range that's order-of €5k cheaper.
Even with that aside, there's also the issue that Tesla doesn't have a broad range of vehicles, and there's now a lot of other competitors filling all the various niches, which means if all you want is a cheap electric city car you can get that for €17k* and don't need to start with the, what is it, €42k for a Model 3?
* For a Dacia Spring: https://www.dacia.de/nci-catalog.html?model.code=S1E&sortKey...
There is also the much cheaper Citroën Ami for just under €8k, but that's more of a car-shaped object, legally a quadricycle, but even then the point remains that it's filling in niches that Tesla doesn't: https://www.citroen.de/modelle/neuer-ami.html
Weird exemption is Korean cars that cost far more. Go figure that out.
I agree Tesla's narrow range of options is probably THE issue. Like it or not, a lot of people's car buying is irrational. Flash looks, unrealistic range, tons of custom options, old habits (Korean EVs still ship a fricking engine start button). Tesla is the most rational car purchase out there (average looks, tons of features, tons of automation, mass produced so parts a dirt cheap). Most of rational buyers already got one.
This might be an NZ trade policy thing; in Europe, Hyundai has electric cars susbstantially cheaper than the cheapest Tesla.
Oh, I'm reminded, every time I see a Cybertruck on the road.
BYD is as old as Tesla (2003) and XPeng is more than 10 years old at this point.
Bringing a car on the market is quite regulated, so if you don't have adequate capital, it is really difficult to bring a new car to market in the EU.
MG, BYD, ORA, Haval, Omoda, Lynk & Co, NIO, Xpeng, Zeekr, Maxus, Leapmotor, Hongqi, Aiways, Chery, Jaecoo, BAIC, Forthing, DFSK, Seres, Voyah, SWM, JAC, Bestune, Skywell
Omoda is Chery for example.
MG and Maxus are both SAIC.
Haval and ORA are Great Wall.
A diagram as of 2024: https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/v2/D4D22AQE4uiRLMqkneQ/fee...
Koreans have far too many issues and Japanese are just making fun of themselves (albeit new Leaf finally might be decent).
Just looking at a sampling of Irish prices across the low end (including grants):
Tesla Model 3: min 37,500eur
VW id.3 (European): min 31,780eur
Dacia Spring (European/Chinese): 17,000eur
Hyundai Inster (Korean): 20,000eur
Like, certainly in terms of minimum entry price, Telsa's very much on the expensive end.
Untrue. https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ra...
The result is that they are being severely undercut on price by BYD et al.
Tesla are going to have to either start cutting prices significantly, or accept being a low volume pseudo-premium offering.
It's funny they say climate change is a critical emergency (with several countries making measures to effectively ban AC), but then stick to stuff like that.
Yet here we are, with no end in sight for them, while I have to feel guilty to prefer something that doesn't destroy itself after a few seconds in contact with liquids, or to take the car, because transport network only favours those that already live in the city.
Energy usage doesn't have to correspond to environmental damage much at all.
This degrowth mindset is the whole problem with the EU. They focus on scarcity and cutbacks and regulation and bans, rather than addressing the underlying issues to spur on growth and innovation.
It is like loving the planet eating soja, while ignoring the forests being destroyed to satisfy demand as planting fields.
Or farmable fields now being solar panel fields, because it is more profitable to sell energy, than living the farmer life, earning pennies for a hard work life, while kids die every day of lack of nutrition.
To fix the planet, first we need to get rid of profit driven societies.
Edit: fully agree with the sentiment, getting rid of the profit-driven mindset would be beneficial to all.
Come on now, green energy is less bad than fossil fuels, often by a lot, but that's very different from having no impact. The mining to support solar panels does real measurable harm, as does disposing of old ones. There are similar environmental costs to every green energy source. I think nuclear is one of the least bad options and we should have been making more of it for decades, but it's hardly devoid of externalities.
That's not to say we need to consume less energy, just that we should be clear eyed about the tradeoffs. So far there's very little evidence of a huge productivity boost from generative AI, especially relative to the immense energy consumption. Things are changing quickly, maybe that will improve in the near future. But if utility levels off where it is now and energy consumption increases another one or two orders of magnitude, and we're still keeping coal plants alive to support it, I'm going to be pretty skeptical it's worth the cost.
That says that you don't understand the problems. We (Humanity) have 3 problems:
1. Mass extinction. It is a fact, we are living it, it's measurable and it's very bad. It is not at all due to climate change.
2. Fossil energy. It's harder to see in the US, but in Europe started feeling it in 2007. Fossil fuels are limited, and at the moment we've reached the global production peak in 2018 (2019?). Fossil fuels are of course a cause for global warming, but the end of easy access to fossil fuels is a problem in itself. A "degrowth mindset" is not necessarily an ideology, it's a rational behaviour towards a future with less fossil fuels and therefore less energy.
3. Global warming. Europe can feel that it gets worse every year now. It is just starting, and it's never going back. It will keep getting worse, and nobody alive today will see it get better. The only thing we can do to limit how worse it gets is by using less fossil energy, which brings us back to some kind of degrowth again.
Don't mistake everyone who plans for degrowth for people who desire degrowth.
The whole problem with the US is the growth mindset. Because the US will military invade other countries long before accepting that degrowth is unavoidable. Any country who believes that the US are an ally is making a mistake, and the US have made it exceedingly clear in the last few months: the US don't have allies, just (temporary) partners and no notion of loyalty.
Similar to the can ring holders that got banned previously for similar reasons.
It's telling that critics of the move needs to invent other reasons for it to fail at.
Sometimes it is better to improve education than draconian measures.
It's not like people get the death penalty for littering, which would fit the etymology of the term.
Still, language drifts.
Still, importance is relative.
Perhaps my mouth is unusally shaped?
Easy measures to assert governments are doing something.
Actually changing habits of whole populations, or doing real work changes the country infrastructure, access to transport for everyone, and green fuels and whatever, cost too much money, and possible votes, so what really matters isn't done, only the easy stuff, to assert something is being done.
The percentage has been falling but it was still about a quarter of imported Chinese made EVs being Tesla in 2023. And a chunk more is European brands like Dacia and BMW.
Projected to be majority Chinese brands from this year though.
However, on the climate change thing I'm convinced that for EU its's just a happy coincidence that they don't have oil in any considerable amount and are using it to propel for energy independence through renewables.
Let's face it, it's easy to ignore this stuff if it happens quietly. Tesla would probably have been fine if Musk had quietly financed Musk. He's being too public and blatant about it. Most consumers don't actually care that much until you rub their faces in it. Which Musk does.
It would absolutely be better if consumers were more aware of the hidden atrocities behind the products they buy. I try to avoid Chinese products, don't buy from Amazon, I've got a Fairphone, am picky about where my chocolate comes from, and avoid Chiquita, Nestle and brands like that. But I'm a tiny minority. We do need more awareness about this sort of thing.
But even with all the awareness that Musk is creating about his own fascism, there are still people buying his cars.
In contrast, Musk said that people I care about were part of the "parasite class" and chuckled about cutting their benefits. Fuck that.
Also that's a little bold of you to speak for rest of us that way.
And if you want to boycott them, I'm all for that. I don't buy from Amazon or Microsoft either. There are alternatives to Google.
It's true that they've made enormous inroads into Europe in recent years, but now that they all seem to support America's increasing turn towards fascism, you will also see Europe slowly move away from them. But abandoning the cloud infrastructure that you just invested millions in, is a lot harder than buying a different car, so the change is slower.
Put it this way: do you yourself boycott companies, specifically because of those companies supporting things you don't know they support?
> Tesla would probably have been fine if Musk had quietly financed Musk
:D Did you read what was the plan for their first car?
It's not the 50s any more Mr McCarthy. That is not in itself necessarily a bad thing.
China is something else. Not entirely sure what; possible entirely its own thing, but definitely totalitarian.
Otherwise it is difficult to see how they could still succeed, even if they ever manage to produce a perfect FSD.
He brought this on himself.
He should apologise,stay quiet, not get involved in politics or try to influence elections in Europe by supporting far right or other extreme parties.
Even if he steps away completely, the brand is still damaged and the competition is catching up pretty fast.
And that's not even considering how a change of heart would probably hurt his government connections and other funding sources in the near future.
His best chance is possibly to stay on course but tone it down, and generate some (at least perceived) successes with his companies. If he can stay in the game for another couple of years, I'd bet consumers will have mostly forgotten and focus on the products they're getting. I'm not exactly a fan of the CEOs of most companies I'm a customer of. Musk managed to be too much for many, but I don't think that'll stick for very long.
Do any of those have something to do with making better cars?
He has been working extremely hard to extract as much value as possible out of Tesla, at an unprecedented rate. He wants to be paid more than the company has ever made selling cars! Comparable CEOs take small or no salary and make their money by growing the value of their equity. Musk wants to improve the value of his massive existing equity and be paid tens of billions of dollars on top of that, in multiple packages. Before his first payout got held up in court he was already pressuring the company to give him another unprecedented handout.
To state the obvious, nobody becomes the wealthiest person in the world by not caring about money. They might pretend to not care, but acquiring that level of wealth takes a lot of dedicated focus to accomplish.
Technologically behind the competition and more expensive too, but a strong brand name well known for being one of the first major electric car producers.
Now the brand is toxic BYD etc. will overtake them in Europe too. Ironically, it's Europe's own tariffs against China that have protected them from BYD for this long.
But Europe bans FSD, so in Europe, Tesla is just more expensive for no benefit.
Paradoxically, I think the closer you get to real self-driving without actually reaching it, the more skeptical people will become since it lulls you into a false sense of security. A car that mostly seems like it will drive itself but will occasionally and unpredictably try to kill you is much more concerning for most people than a car that helps you out but presents no illusion that you can stop paying attention.
Toyota's PE ratio, for a random comparison, is 6.5. It is unfair in many ways, but still, it shows the scale of the valuation gap!
I just don't understand the reason, why any Tesla shareholder wouldn't like the 400% return in 5 years, just because BYD had even better return and forced some margin compression on Tesla.
with BYD - they make cheaper cars, are more experienced in making batteries than tesla. so what advantage does tesla have over their rivals ?
yeah at first 'tech' people bought tesla's as a fashion statement but that period is over.
But that is banned in Europe atm, so it negates Tesla's main advantage.
That's an unusual way to say a full third of customers are dissatisfied with it.
They're all in tech somehow, for most it's skepticism about software quality for a complicated and critical system. For at least one, he thinks he's a better driver and likes driving anyways.
Does that include people who tried it during a free trial or via a monthly subscription and were sufficiently unimpressed that they didn’t keep it?
That's not true anymore, at least in China.
Quarter-on-quarter or month-by-month would have been much more interesting, could have shown a change in trend. Especially after Musk's departure from the administration.
At this point it's much more interesting how well the Robotaxi is doing. It's still not driving like Waymo (I didn't like how it is desregarding the rules), but in a few years if it is able to scale up, it will scale much much faster and cheaper.
I'm out of the loop here. Recovered from what? A few months ago in similar threads the going theory was that people were waiting for the new Y, and that's why there was a slump. The new Y is out and available, no? Are they just not up to full rate production?
I like my Model 3. It is a fantastic car. Charging infrastructure is bar none. Price is unbeatable. No range anxiety.
But of course, were I choosing a car to buy today, I would have never bought it. That would be akin to doing business with Epstein. Some things are absolutely unforgivable.
Volkswagen group EVs are pretty good, Volvo/Polestar EVs look really good, BYD is like Tesla but with Chinese backing and seem to be pulling ahead in battery tech, Hyundai/Kia produce batteries and control a ton of their supply chain being a conglomerate, etc... Tesla's battery tech is stale, their designs are stale (except the Cybertruck which is hideous), and all this is before considering the US/Elon Musk craziness...
Edit - should add, outside all the more innovative brands, every legacy brand has an EV as well.
If it's about function or form then I think the new Teslas are getting uglier with light bars and busy styling vs the old clean and minimal look.
I think it's the Nazi salute where he really fucked up. Because even people that don't read (aka: most people) will look at an image of a Nazi salute and instantly have a strong opinion.
As long as JinPing doesn't do a Nazi salute, most people won't care much about what the Chinese government is doing.
The lesson of the story: Don't do controversial things in a way that makes a good cover page image.
It's not like it's in the past either, only a couple of weeks ago he publicly claimed that Trump is a child rapist, but notably seemed to have zero qualms cosying up to him anyway as long as he got to play DOGE saviour.
China's neighbors tend to think much less positively about China and Xi. They can't afford to be uninformed.