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Comment by lubos | Hacker News Reader

$2,200 for a laptop? Post-purchase rationalization anyone?

I spent 4k for maxed out ram and a larger SSD. I'll spend more time interfacing with this machine than with anything else in my life over the next 3 years. I advocate spending a lot on your Computer, chair and bed, and spending little on your car.

It seems a good portion of the HN crowd is obsessed with spending more money than necessary. I totally get the "Put money into things that matter" idea, but overpaying for outdated specs is not some honorable trait.

Because a computer is nothing more than a list of specs right? It's the same quality logic behind "My number is bigger than his, so therefore my computer is better."

> Because a computer is nothing more than a list of specs right?

What else would it be? If my computer is faster, cheaper, and lets me accomplish the same things in the same amount of time, how could it be worse?

> If my computer is faster, cheaper, and lets me accomplish the same things in the same amount of time, how could it be worse?

Seriously?

Let's just take the most obvious example then. One is a laptop, one is a desktop. There. One is "faster, cheaper and lets you accomplish the same things in the same amount of time" but one requires you to be tethered to a wall and the other doesn't.

If that example is too much of an extreme for you, how about a desktop replacement laptop? I can get a 11-pound beast that is "faster, cheaper, and lets me accomplish the same things in the same amount of time" than my MacBook Air. Good luck opening it and using it anywhere other than a full desk though.

A computer is not just a spec sheet, much like a car is not a spec sheet. If you don't value the differences that putting more into a car or computer brings, that's fine. However it makes you look pretty out of touch if you can't even see what others value in it.

>> If my computer is faster, cheaper, and lets me accomplish the same things in the same amount of time, how could it be worse?

Different people value different things.

Myself, I care less about specs than I do about weight, display quality and build quality -- I'll pay extra for those things too.

Other people might prioritize storage speed, and spend a fortune on the biggest possible SSD, even though the cost per GB might not be worth it to most other people.

If you are happy with a faster, cheaper computer, more power to you, because you're happy, and really, that's all that matters.

It's hard to put numbers on things like the trackpad on the Apple laptops, which are very large, accurate, have a great, durable, low-friction surface, a ton of useful gestures, and excellent heuristics to ignore palm brushes etc.

Build quality is generally not considered in terms of specs, it is hard to quantify. Also if we are talking Macs there is a lot around interoperability and software.

Oh. There are a thousand ways it could be worse.

Could you share some? I use a MBP at work, and if I'm not "doing it right", I'd like to know how I can get the most out of my machine.

It's all about getting the most of your time using the machine, unless you're doing CPU-intensive work (and why wouldn't you offload that to a server farm?). Convenience, reliability, usability, efficiency, etc.

After obsessing over pc parts since childhood, these days I don't give a shit about specs and am happier for it - unless I'm trying to play Counter-strike, even then I only wish I could use my PS3 and forget about it :)

My work MBP is fast enough for what I do. I don't need 16gig 2133 DDR3, or an i7. My problem, though, is that you're paying PC i7 level price for an i3/5, for example.

That's like saying by buying a Smart Car you're paying V6 price for a four cylinder engine. In other words, you couldn't be missing the point more.

I guess I just view things from a different perspective, not having the disposable income of the average HNer (where 2200 is a "rounding error", as seen in this thread)

A key counterpoint to the "put money into things that matter" idea is "but don't put unreasonable amounts of money into those things".

In other words, it doesn't rationalize spending $10,000 on a laptop if the $1,000 model is 99% as good.

I think it depends, obviously if it really were 99% as good it is a no brainer, a $4000 laptop that you value say 30% more could well be worth it. If you are bringing in 100k+ a year mostly using your laptop the $4000 figure is really quite insignificant in the long run.

I spent around $3500 for a maxed out 15" MPB in 2010. Matte screen, higher res, 256GB SSD, 8Gig RAM.

Just this year I downgraded to a 13" MBA after using a co-workers... $1500 later and I've never been happier. The old MBP feels like a brick. A buddies new retina MBP feel like a lighter brick, but still a brick.

I can't see myself ever going back to the larger form factor.

I recommend really thinking about what you want in a laptop and trying out a few options. Go ahead and spend a lot if it's the perfect match, but don't feel like it needs to be expensive in order to be a great machine.

I tried to like the air, but the fonts were just a bit too wee for my eyes for extended use. Maybe if the airs ever go retina then resized terminal fonts won't look completely awful, and I may give it a go again. A retina 13"-mbp could be pretty nice too though.

Still rockin' the mid-2009 15"-matte with an aftermarket ssd for now.

I'm running 14pt Monaco in iTerm. It's perfect for me, and it still feels like I have more than enough screen space.

Only thing I miss is the matte screen...

The native widget fonts are still pretty small though right?

Not really, but I doubt I'd mind if they were. You should take another pass on the MBAs at a Mac Store. Launch term, change some fonts, muck around a bit and see if it's acceptable. I was originally going to upgrade to the MBP retina, but changed my mind after using a 13" MBA for a few min.

iOS compiles could be snappier I guess, but everything else is fine. Its faster than my 2010 MBP anyways.

I might do that. Thanks.

Absolutely, my machine preceding this one was an 11" MBA. I still use it on-the-go frequently. It helps me to check that I have committed everything :D It was the best $1000 I've ever spent.

I almost went with the 11", but it just felt too small after playing around in the terminal for a bit (talk about weird looks from the Mac Store kids). Maybe in a couple years I'll give it a try again. Such an amazing little box.

Exactly how I rationalized spending $3k on the MBP retina. I commonly see people that think its crazy to spend a few grand on a computer but to me it's a device that supplies my income and where I spend the majority of my time.

The part about the car however, I do not agree with.

I'm an auto enthusiast and unfortunately I spend way too much on my car as well but it is something that I love to do and it provides me with a hobby to let me get away from all the time I spend on my $3,000 MBP.

Yeah, for me, the $3K is worth it. The only thing that gives me pause about the Retina MBP is the price and capacity of storage.

For example, if you're a photographer who likes to keep your entire library on your internal drive, you'll have mixed feelings about the Retina MBP's storage. I'm only shooting 12MP RAW, and my Aperture library is already >200GB with diligent pruning. I'd hate to imagine someone using something like a D800 and its 36MP RAW files only to find out they need an external drive after a few months of using the Retina.

In regards to cars, yeah, that comment gave me pause. I mean, when I was a teenager I was a skinflint on cars, but once you've got some funds... your computer can't kill you. Your car can.

This is not an advertisement for the latest car with fifty airbags. Rather, a suggestion to avoid being downright cheap with an automobile. Assuming risk is one of the costs of driving, and should be factored in to your purchasing decision.

Yep, same here. I put the most money into the things I spend the most time with. So far it's worked out pretty well.

Explain please. I was providing reinforcement for his statement.

Here is how a good boss would rationalize it.

Boss: Hi new Employee, what laptop would you like to use as your daily computer?

Employee: A $700 Dell.

Boss: Are you just saying that to save the company money? Because it's not about the money. I'm paying you $80k a year and I want you to be productive and happy. I want you to pick something you feel good about every time you use it. You will be using this laptop 40+ hours a week for the next 2 years. Don't forget, this is your job and career.

Employee: Hmm. Well, I do prefer Mac to Windows. Is a $2200 15" MacBook Pro retina OK?

Boss: You tell me. The purchase price is a tax write off. I really don't give a shit.

There's an inherent assumption here that $2200 gets you a significantly better machine. It's true, but you can enjoy a massive jump in quality for probably around $150-1600. I believe that's what lubos is alluding to.

If you're being paid professional programmer rates you should get the best machine, not the one where price-performance hits some sweet spot. If the cost of a developer who wants a Dell is $80,750 and a developer who wants an rMBP is $82,200 (year 1), that developer needs to be 2% more productive over a year to justify it.

Hard to measure these things for a lot of folks but I've definitely saved over 2% of my work time from switching from spinning disks to high-end SSD on unit tests alone. Never mind the reduced boot times, how fast 'brew install' is and the general responsiveness.

If you're buying it yourself, be cheap, if you're paying someone's massive wage bill, get them the best thing you can.

As a software engineer my machine is one of my most important tools. Considering as much time I spend on it, $2200 is a rounding error.

> $2200 is a rounding error.

When you consider that the other options aren't free, this becomes even more true. A heavier or thicker case, plastic body, shittier display, or even something as seemingly insignificant as a bigger power brick to save a few hundred bucks? No thanks.

What would you say about a zenbook prime UX32 [11.6in 1080p] sporting a noob friendly Linux distro [Ubuntu/Mint]. Similar (possibly better) performance, aluminium body, lighter form factor, bleeding edge OS, access to most developer tools available on the OSX (bar textmate and xcode). Pricetag - $1300. The mind can justify whatever it wants...its called human nature

So it looks like you can get a Zenbook Prime that's very similar to the $1099 MacBook Air for $900, but yes, with somewhat better specs.

It looks like a competitive laptop, although I'd have to hold one in my hands to really know. Looking at the pictures I'm guessing that the trackpad would drive me crazy (I don't understand why other manufacturers have so much trouble here, although Vizio seems to have done a nice job with their new line of laptops in this department -- no separate buttons for one). I'd also be trading OS X for Linux (or Windows), would would be a pretty serious compromise for me[0].

Anyway, yes, the mind can justify whatever it wants, but I don't feel like I have to do a lot of work to justify spending an extra $200. That's substantially less than a day's gross pay if you've got a typical US software engineering job.

[0]: I'm no stranger to Linux. I ran it exclusively from 1999-2004, and I have a Linux dev desktop at work. Out of the box I strongly prefer OS X, if for nothing other than the consistency of keybindings across software (including third-party). I could (and have) customized my Linux config to be more consistent, although some things are not easily tweaked.

I would say that the screen size and rez are not comparable. That the Macbook Pro Retina has 3 Million more pixels than the Zenbook. And that 11.6" is still awfully small for a primary machine.

I'd also say that the Zenbook has a dual core i7 with 4MB L3 cache. The MBP has a quad core with 6MB L3.

I'd also say that the SSD on a UX32 looks like it's 128MB standard, half what comes standard on the base MBP Retina.

And finally that even Ubuntu/Mint have far more issues than OSX. Things like always reliably coming back from sleep modes. I still have issues with this on Ubuntu 12.04 on my desktop machine.

Look, i think the Zenbooks are beautiful and if all you have to spend on a machine is $1300 then I'd seriously consider it vs the 13" Air. I'd probably go Air because I have a lot of Apple ecosystem but an apple noob would probably go Zenbook.

But you can't compare it to a Retina 15" Macbook Pro. It's not like everybody that buys Apple just mindlessly forks-over an extra $900 for the brand name. The machine packs a punch.

How's the clickpad? How about SSD performance? Does Mint handle the app switching pretty well compared to OSX's Expose/Drag-Drop?

These things in a 2010 MB Air, where you wouldn't expect it, were unparalleled. When I spend 10+hrs a day on a device, I need it to have flawless input devices, and the Apple products seem to deliver the best (OSX req'd for best integration).

I'd recommend trying out the App switching/Workspace management on Ubuntu 12.04. 'Super'+S gets you all your different workspaces (defaults at 4 but customizable to 64 :D), while 'Super'+W shows all the applications running in a workspace. All that added to good old Ctrl+Tab and yup...comparable experience. SSD performance is the same as that of the Mac and available in 128GB and 256GB. Considering Ubuntu is more lightweight, its understandable that performance is better on it. Try it out for yourself. It comes with a multitouch touchpad too, and installing synaptic-multitouch-trackpad [google it] gives you the gestures on the famous trackpad. Is it as good, probably not, but does it significantly improve the UX when used....very.

I don't know about you, but that sound about parallel to me. For $700 less.

That computer is comparable to the 11-inch Macbook Air, which is around $1300 when all is said and done, not to mention it doesn't come with the stickers and bloatware of the Zenbook Prime.

Comparable? Considering the Macbook Air ships with a second gen dual-core i5-chip [Zenbook 3rd-gen i7], and an 1440x900 [Zenbook Full-HD (read 1920x1080)], It is more comparable to the lower end MBPs.

Last I checked bloatware was really an issue on most linux distros [Archlinux leaves you with a terminal prompt]. I'd recommend Ubuntu for new users, but as a Mac user you'd feel right at home. When you then take into consideration that performance of Wine (the free, open source Windows emulator available on linux) when running native Windows applications (Including high-graphic-demand games), it's a developer's dream.

Stickers...well there's precious little anyone can do about that.

I paid more than that for a late 2010 model and it was worth every penny.

Three things have changed my career (as a programmer/CS student): MIT/Harvard/Stanford OpenCourseWare[1], HackerNews (the past 15 months) and my MacBook Pro.

That MacBook Pro is the best things I've ever purchased. I owe a lot to that machine (and HN).

[1]: I don't mean the new www.coursera.org thing. I mean http://ocw.mit.edu, cs50.tv/cs75.tv and http://see.stanford.edu/see/courses.aspx which were all available years before Coursera and I watched "all" of them and learnt "a lot".

I know what you mean, my Lenovo x201t was really the best purchase I ever made. It came when I was mostly done with the CS part of my degree and was focusing on my math major. The difference in my ability to take notes and actually organize and use them was absolutely massive.

I'm glad you love your macbook, but would a similar-enough computer _really_ not do it for you? When I upgraded from a netbook as my main machine to my Toshiba Z830, it was amazing, but then again, that is comparing a $200 machine to a $700 machine.

I can't really see that same $500 difference in price making something like the $1200 MBP so much better than what I've got, with marginal utility and all that going.

I don't by any means think that getting a high end machine is a bad idea, but I do think that once you get something that is a high quality item, you definitely reach the "good enough for me" stage.

No. You get what you pay for, and what you get here is a screen significantly better than any other display available. In addition to a very, very fast computer that weighs 4½ pounds.

What's your point? That's in no way a bad or ridiculous price.

You can sell it year later while losing 10-15%. (If you take good care of it.)

256Gb flash, quad-core i7, NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M. ASUS has some slightly better models for a similar price, without the retina display.

If you are buying a premium laptol from any big manufacturer, it will be more expensive. Apple just doesn't offer a "value" line.

In Europe, it will be 2200 euros. And still a good buy. Not a cheap one, but a good one.

It's more like 1900 euros before VAT, or 2375 usd.

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