Hacker News Reader

Comment by torginus | Hacker News Reader

I'm kinda ignorant about the current state of Linux VMs, but my biggest gripe with VMs is that OS kernels kind of assume they have access to all the RAM the hardware has - unlike the reserve/commit scheme processes use for memory.

Is there a VM technology that can make Linux aware that it's running in a VM, and be able to hand back the memory it uses to the host OS?

Or maybe could Apple patch the kernel to do exactly this?

Running Docker in a VM always has been quite painful on Mac due to the excess amount of memory it uses, and Macs not really having a lot of RAM.

View on HN

It's still a problem for containers-in-VMs. You can in theory do something with either memory ballooning or (more modern) memory hotplugging, but the dance between the OS and the hypervisor takes a relatively long time to complete, and Linux just doesn't handle it well (eg. it inevitably places unmovable pages into newly reserved memory, meaning it can never be unplugged). We never found a good way to make applications running inside the VM able to transparently allocate memory. You can overprovision memory, and hypervisors won't actually allocate it on the host, and that's the best you can do, but this also has problems since Linux tends to allocate a bunch of fixed data structures proportional to the size of memory it thinks it has available.

That's called memory balooning and is supported by KVM on Linux. Proxmox for example can do that. It does need support on both the host and the guest.

it's not as straightforward a solution as it sounds, though

> Is there a VM technology that can make Linux aware that it's running in a VM, and be able to hand back the memory it uses to the host OS?

Isn't this an issue of the hypervisor? The guest OS is just told it has X amount of memory available, whether this memory exists or not (hence why you can overallocate memory for VMs), whether the hypervisor will allocate the entire amount or just what the guest OS is actually using should depend on the hypervisor itself.

> or just what the guest OS is actually using should depend on the hypervisor itself.

How can the hypervisor know which memory the guest OS is actually using? It might have used some memory in the past and now no longer needs it, but from the POV of the hypervisor it might as well be used.

This is a communication problem between hypervisor and guest OS, because the hypervisor manages the physical memory but only the guest OS known how much memory should actually be used.

A generic vmm can not, but these are specific vmms so they can likely load dedicated kernel mode drivers into the well known guest to get the information back out.

The driver would still be part of the guest.

If you control both the VMM and the guest through a driver you have an essentially infinite latitude to set up communications between the two: virtual devices, iommu, interrupts, ...

Just looked it up - and the answer is 'baloon drivers', which are special drivers loaded by the guest OS, which can request and return unused pages to the host hypervisor.

Apparently docker for Mac and Windows uses these, but in practice, docker containers tend to grow quite large in terms of memory, so not quite sure how well it works in practice, its certainly overallocates compared to running docker natively on a Linux host.

The short answer is yes, Linux can be informed to some extent but often you still want a memory balloon driver so that the host can “allocate” memory out of the VM so the host OS can reclaim that memory. It’s not entirely trivial but the tools exist, and it’s usually not too bad on vz these days when properly configured.

It’s one reason i don’t like WSL2. When you compile something which needs 30 GB RAM the only thing you can do is terminate the wsl2 vm to get that ram back.

Since late 2023, WSL2 has supported "autoMemoryReclaim", nominally still experimental, but works fine for me.

add:

[experimental] autoMemoryReclaim=gradual

to your .wslconfig

See: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/wsl-config

Reply on news.ycombinator.com