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Comment by RankingMember | Hacker News Reader

> Out of love he did these things, fully knowing that humans were capable of turning away from God.

Out of love, God gave us the option to do things against him and be eternally damned?

No, no. He didn't give us any option. God is all-powerful and all-knowing, so he made us knowing that we would break his rules and thus knowing that he would later punish us for eternity for breaking them. The notion of free will is in complete contradiction with an all-knowing all-powerful agent that sets things in motion. And the fact that God still punishes us even though we never had a choice is proof that it's not benevolent.

So: all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving. Pick two.

This. It's like knowing the outcome of running sudo -rm -Rfv in a script and then blaming a privileged user who ran it.

Except the God of the Bible picked all three. That is what makes it the greatest story ever told. :)

If you can't or won't see the contradiction, at least I hope you can enjoy the story, because that is all it can be.

If you can’t or won’t see the truth in the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ I pray that it is revealed to you and you have life changing faith. Either way, be blessed in your day and week.

Yes, out of love he gave us the agency and dignity to choose not to be in a love relationship with him. Faith in Jesus Christ and the arrival of the Kingdom of God to set things right provides us a means to enter into a relationship with him in a fallen, sinful world. To be adopted into his family and inherit new creation. This means he also dignifies those who choose not to love him to separate themselves from his presence for all eternity. In which case then they become less human.

In our culture it is easy to think of this in terms of Dante's "Inferno", but that is a poem from the Middle Ages, and not in fact what the Bible tells us eternal separation from God looks like. Anyways, there is a lot of context to cover that isn't possible here. If you'd like to understand all of this better, go to the Bible, but then also perhaps consider "The Prodigal God" by Tim Keller. Blessings.

If God is truly good and omniscient, why would he intentionally create imperfect beings with the capacity for evil and then judge them for being imperfect? It's hard to see this story as one of some being of pure goodness instead of, rather, a character more akin to Jigsaw, trapping his creations in paradoxical or impossible situations for some unknown pleasure.

Maybe we just have drastically different ideas of what "love" is.

God, who is referred to as love, created beings in his image to tend to his creation, and to be in a love relationship with him. He himself created out of a loving relationship (read up on his triune nature). Rather than make them automatons that simply do his will he wanted them to love him of their own will the same he loves them. You can understand his first command as "do this because you love me and trust that I have your best interest in mind". When they instead chose themselves he could no longer be in their presence because of their sin, thus they were ejected from his presence, and thus cursed to pay the costs of that sin, until his plan to redeem them through his own justice and mercy could be fulfilled.

Any love relationship that is truly loving is not created by power or authority. It is by the willingness of both parties, unconditionally.

> Rather than make them automatons that simply do his will he wanted them to love him of their own will the same he loves them. You can understand his first command as "do this because you love me and trust that I have your best interest in mind".

So he doesn't want automatons, but he does want unquestioning loyalty and trust? Is this not simply a distinction without a difference?

If someone we knew in our lives behaved like this with their children, we'd rightfully question what trauma occurred to make them this way. To create and then cast away those he created who did not act as he wished is the behavior of a control freak, not a loving god.

I don’t think it is so much “unquestioning loyalty and trust” but a loving relationship with the creator of the universe. It is hardly a distinction without difference. The story continues that God came to earth as a man who, while innocent, was brutally murdered, for spreading this message. That doesn’t sound like controlling (nor trauma-induced) behavior to me. Instead it sounds like the ultimate sacrifice for a loved one.

Finally, you missed the part where humans chose to be cast away, the consequences of sin are death.

Either way, I pray this truth is revealed to you and that you are blessed in your day and week.

> I don’t think it is so much “unquestioning loyalty and trust” but a loving relationship with the creator of the universe.

A loving relationship with the creator of the universe that's mandatory if you don't want to be cast away to hellfire, correct?

One way to think about it is that we were created to be in a loving relationship with God. The same way we were created to breathe oxygen. It is designed to be that way. But we're intelligent beings, if someone chooses not to be in your presence, you provide them the dignity to make that choice. But that doesn't mean they remain in the same status as the ones you love. I think we could be honest with ourselves that our loved ones have a different relationship with us than those who choose not to be our friends? Very similar to our relationship with God. And he has done a tremendous amount of work through the ages, through his Son to show you how much he loves you and wants to be in a relationship with you.

Ultimately if someone chooses they do not like God's design and do not want to be in his presence, he honors that, but that means they are setting aside their humanity, and his design for them.

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