We consistently underestimate kids. | Hacker News Reader

We consistently underestimate kids.

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142 pointsnemesisj60 comments

I'm having a similar experience with my 8yo and his arduino. The coolest thing is to watch him google and struggle (and persevere) despite not being able to read all that well.

Its also bizarre to be with someone who can read and understand the word "instantiate" but is mystified by "pizza".

Rightfully so; Italian is cryptic!

Yeah, I suppose at a certain point the words that don't follow the rules are the most confusing. "Instantiate" follows the basic rules, "pizza" does not.

26 years ago I wrote a BAT file ("kristen") for the household MS-DOS computer, which would play Christmas carols whenever my two-year-old daughter typed her name on the keyboard and pressed the return key. She learned quickly to switch the system on, wait for the boot sequence to complete, and play music All By Herself.

It was a revelation: kids as young as that don't have eye-hand coordination enough to scribble recognizable letters, so grownups tend to underestimate their cognitive abilities. But give 'em an opportunity to type, and their world expands explosively.

Kristen's own son just turned three last month, and you can't tear him away from his iPad.

Thank you - I am going to buy a cheap laptop (maybe two to stop fighting) for each child.

Question: What should go on there? Or should I go for the iPad and push the "educational" games

Kids tend to take to tablets brilliantly in my experience. My son turned two a couple of months ago and he can unlock my iPad, swipe across to the next page, select his folder containing his apps (mostly educational, one or two fun apps) choose an app, play with it for a bit, close the app and open a new one. He recently learned how to work the camera which is pretty awesome.

Interesting side effect: He now thinks all smooth surfaces are interactive. We were on the train recently and he was swiping the window in order to close the train doors. Blew my mind at the time.

My son (and daughter) now walk up to the TV if I have paused the movie and press the big (||) button on screen. That blew me away too - its much better interface.

(Actually they both used to, now they grab the remote. Ollie can work it fine now.)

I remember playing video games with a younger family member before he could read. (I want to say the system in question was a Sega Saturn, but I'm not one hundred percent sure about this.) He didn't know what the menus said, but he knew exactly which options he wanted and how to move through several menu screens.

I was impressed.

Moral of the story: A halfway decent interactive interface can work wonders for a kid's ability to unleash his mind.

Well I'm sure the ipad has plenty of educational games like the app that teaches algebra without math but you could always look at a netbook and something like http://www.qimo4kids.com/

An ipad may be easier for a child to get started with as everything is just there on the screen.

Unix!

http://changelog.complete.org/archives/7562-i-introduced-my-...

There are a huge number of educational and recreational apps for the iPad for kids, apart from just games. My plan for years was to get a netbook each for my kids and put something like Edubuntu on it, but now I just don't see the point. I have a netbook, but the battery only lasts a few hours, it's woefully underpowered compared to an iPad, takes several minutes to boot/wake as against instant start, is fiddly to use, with a poor screen. It's just a non-starter. If you're not used to the iPad ok, but if you are they're worlds apart.

I'm hoping for a relatively cheap mini-iPad to come out this autumn and I'll get one for each of my two girls, aged 7 and 8. That, or get their rich uncle and grandparents to sort them out. Then I can get my iPad back out of their little fingers. It'll be just me and the wife fighting over it, though actually there are quite a few puzzle games we play together.

My brother's two year old "hogs" their iPad. The amount of read along books in the iBooks store is amazing.

I think an iPad is better than a cheap laptop because kids like to touch things and the direct interaction is amazing. Some of the books I read as a child like "The Monster at the End of This Book" are amazing interactive on the iPad.

The tablet interface is way more natural than the computer. If you're got the cash, go for the iPad. If not, I might even recommend one of the 7" Nexus tables Google puts out. I'm no Android guy, but that is a great product for its price.

Same story - 4yr old could type and mouse before he could write. His handwriting is still crap :)

As a kid, I never saw the point in learning handwriting because the computer could do it so much faster and better.

Today's kids are going to be so different compared to anyone who comes before, they'll be asking "why learn anything when we have Google, Bing, and Wolfram Alpha?"

Giving computers to young children is one thing. I would think twice about giving them unrestricted internet however. I kinda like the lego raspberry computer idea combined with the 'showing CLI first' idea someone had here (obviously not for children below the age of 7 or so).

Works for speech too, so I'd summarize it as "kids lacks interfaces". A neuroscientist said there's an adult/infant impedance mismatch, that caused wrong theories to develop. Kids would fail repetitive logic tests because asking the same question twice would be interpreted as being wrong so they tried another answer which made them look random. * sigh

Do you have a link, paper or book recommendation for those wanting to read more about how kids "fail" repetitive logic tests as you just described?

My anecdote is a chapter called 'Piaget errors' in 'The number sense' http://www.amazon.com/The-Number-Sense-Creates-Mathematics/d... a book from Stanisla Dehaene. You can check out the preview but it skips a part of the piaget chapter though.

Do you have anything similar to the BAT file for the iPad?

I was the youngest in a tiny family, and never had much exposure to children younger than myself. As such, I grew up not liking kids very much - I thought they were obnoxious, loud, selfish little creatures.
Then, about 10 years ago, I met my now-wife and got pulled into her gigantic family, complete with dozens of nieces and nephews. Not really knowing how to interact with young children, I just talked to them like adults - not dumbing down what I said, making jokes and references that there was no possibility they would understand - I found it kind of amusing to talk to a child like that.
But, the funny thing is, they really responded to being treated that way. And, it was fascinating to see how they reacted to my comments and questions. A lot of times I would say something I thought was totally over their heads, yet they would inevitably furrow their brows, and come up with some kind of response - often showing an amazing level of comprehension. It was really interesting to see how a child's thought process works, and how it changes as they grow.
As a perverse revenge against someone who didn't like kids, they all grew fond of me. I guess they liked being treated as people instead of dumb little kids.
Epilogue: I actually grew to like children... or the mostly-well-behaved ones, anyway.

I've become interested in evolutionary psychology. Not at all expert, but when one considers the survivability of children in ancient (pre-historic) environments, seems logical that children increased the likelihood of survival by mimicking the adults they see; figuring out how to do the basics like feeding themselves, finding a safe place to sleep, taking cover during inclement weather, and generally assimilating adult behavior. The sooner they learned these skills, the better their chance of survival if they became separated from adults. Evolution selected for such behaviors. That conclusion is a thought experiment, and I haven't dug up scientific evidence, so an anecdote: I once came home from work to find my 6 year old daughter in my closet. She had put on one of my shirts, a tie and my shoes. She was holding an old briefcase. When she saw me, she said, "daddy, let's go do some business!". I believe that kids have a genetically driven need to emulate their parents and that need is rooted in evolution and is much more profound than we realize. Regrettably, the modern parenting and schooling systems squelch that need. Here's another anecdote: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/07/02/12070...

When she saw me, she said, "daddy, let's go do some business!"
Did you?

I told her not to move and dashed for the camera. Then we talked about what she wanted to sell (ice cream) and who she wanted to sell it to (people from Germany [I was traveling there frequently at the time]).
I work from home when not traveling and we still talk about customers, partners and even some of the challenges that come up and what we're doing about them. Not sure exactly how it will manifest when she is an adult, but I am certain some good will come of the exposure.
You are absolutely right, don't discard those moments.

Thanks for the reply! I read an interesting story here on HN about a father who helped his daughter set up her own business with a gumball machine. Here it is, DanielBMarkham: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3168077
The parent story is also interesting. It seems like a good way to teach your children about a part of the world. I would prefer something other than soda or gumballs, though. ;)

In 3rd grade I built a transistor radio for the science fair. I remember being so proud that I built it, but my mom seemed to be way more proud of that meaningless blue ribbon.
That's the problem, I think. It seems too many parents encourage artificial achievement that can be quantified, like grades or ribbons, which keeps kids from truly exploring what they are capable of doing.

This type of encouragement results in bright kids becoming good at doing things because they please parents / teachers / professors / bosses.
Whereas our best and brightest should be encouraged to work out things for themselves, push boundaries, and in general, innovate.
Kudos for finding someone that could understand and appreciate what you were capable of, though. Not all kids have that; as a kid it can be very discouraging when you don't have anyone who understands your work to talk to.

To be honest, I've seen kids doing better hack than that kid in the video using scratch... I don't think we are underestimating kids. If kids have natural talents to programming, then they will enjoy it. Don't push kids to do things just because it's cool to make it on their early resume.

When I was a bit older I made a primitive calculator in Delphi... you had to enter things in postfix notation, I think, because I couldn't figure out how to do the normal kind.

Parent of a 4 and 1 year old here. Kids can be surprisingly smart and "dumb" at the same time. Their rote intelligence can shine if problems are presented in ways they can easily comprehend them but even simple emotional intelligence tasks ("if I kick my sister it hurts her the same amount as it hurts me when I get kicked") stump them. This confuses adults (myself included) and sometimes makes us expect more from them than would be realistic.

I don't think kids don't realize that other people hurt too. Kicking their sisters would be quite pointless otherwise.

He's talking about the principles of psychology and escalation of anger. Studies show that when you actually hurt someone, your brain devalues that punch and makes you think you didn't hit very hard, but when you get punched your brain blows it out of proportion.
Defensive techniques I suppose.

> even simple emotional intelligence tasks ("if I kick my sister it hurts her the same amount as it hurts me when I get kicked") stump them
Thinking back to when I was a kid, this one probably boils down to the "interrupt" aspect of behavior modification. It doesn't matter if the kid intellectually understands the Golden Rule if it doesn't cross his mind in between the time he thinks about kicking his sister and when he actually does it.
I would say it's punishment that remedies this -- you can think about punishment like registering a hardware interrupt that will cause negative emotions to spontaneously activate when the same situation arises in the future.
This is complementary to the child's intellectual understanding of why it's wrong to hit his sister.
Understanding without punishment makes ethics a purely academic exercise rather than something that should be practiced in daily life. Punishment without understanding breeds resentment and/or strange, dysfunctional worldviews.
Disclaimer: I've never had kids, nor have I been closely involved in the raising of younger family members, nor am I an expert in this area. Much depends on the particular individual kids, parents and circumstances. YMMV.

I want to understand the down votes.. As a parent of one young child, I find discipline the hardest aspect of being a parent. Holy hell it twists me in knots trying to work out when to draw the line, when to ignore and when to warn. Luckily my wife is better at this.

In 3rd grade I built a transistor radio for the science fair. I remember being so proud that I built it (and received 2 stations!), but my mom seemed to be way more proud of that meaningless blue ribbon.
That's the problem, I think. It seems too many parents encourage artificial achievement that can be quantified, like grades or ribbons, which keeps kids from truly exploring what they are capable of doing.

Wow, I'm really sorry about these multiple posts. Blame my HP Touchpad's browser...
Anyone have the power to delete these?

Looks like the duplicates have been autokilled, so only you and people with showdead enabled can see them anyway. Don't worry about it.

While I fully agree that we underestimate kids, I've got to say that my three-year-old spent a gleeful half hour riding up and down escalators back in March, and was sad when we said he had to stop. Little kids can be surprisingly smart and still be amused by simple, repetitive things that would bore adults out of their skulls.

Farmville, slot machines, Modern Warfare 3, and Halo 7 would all like to raise objections. Adults find amusement in similarly mindless tasks. Adults don't find escalators amusing only because a lifetime of experience has made them common. A trip to Atlantic City or Vegas on the other hand somehow turns losing money into entertainment.

But those are repetitive things specifically designed to hook adults. Very young kids are endlessly amused by simple things like escalators and empty cardboard boxes.

I still get a small thrill from stepping onto a particularly long escalator (eg the one at Angel tube station in London, which is the 3rd biggest in Western Europe), but then again, my partner often says I'm essentially a five year old trapped in an adult's body.

There is an awesome one at Tokyo Station (Chuo line?) Up about two stories, then horizontal for 10 meters, then up another two stories. Ya, I could spend hours on that one....

You should come to the escalator in the Seattle Public Library.
and/or watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbZ7jrMe4t4
this too! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&...

You piqued my interest :)
Longest in Tokyo is Shinochanomizu station:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuQTlvWEmbM
Please stand on the left hand side.

North Ryde station in Sydney has a really open area around the escalators which is quite creepy for people afraid of heights:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:North_Ryde_station_escalat...

Pretty much all I've ever wanted to do is walk down an up escalator (and vice versa) at just the right pace that I don't move. Then run a bit faster, slow down a bit, etc. All my earthly ambitions boil down to this.

Do it! What's stopping you?

Security. And, shame.

24 years old, and I'll still do this every now and then when an escalator is uncrowded enough.

Now that you mention it, escalators don't thrill me anymore, but walking quickly with those long moving sidewalks at the airport is still stupid fun at 41.

I wanted to do this, so I found an escalator with nobody else on it, and played around. It was great. Reach out and seize your dreams!

Travelators (is that what they are called?) in airports always get me going. Walking the wrong way on themmoon strangely fun. Moon walking for the guy who can't dance.

I think that we do both - underestimate and overestimate kids.
I think it's best to not have preconceived notions about kids, and take them for what they are, good or bad.
Too often, I see parents in my peer group communicating with small kids as though they were adults, expecting adult responses and then being surprised/disappointed when they get a kid's response.

A three year old, yes, definitely. But the original article was talking about a nine year old.
But I completely agree with you. I think it's awesome how small children can focus so intently on simple things that bore adults. It actually jives well with everything we've learned as we try to make machines more human-like. It turns out that lots of the simple boring stuff is actually really hard, and watching kids progressively conquer it all is amazing.

Something I did with my kids early on was miss the fact that even though they can't talk they can understand just fine. My kids developed a much larger listening vocabulary faster than I ever expected.

I remember how adults used to dumb things down for me or simply ignore me on matters they thought "a kid wouldn't understand", that's why I have a simple policy when talking with children/teenagers: treat them as if they're at the same level as me intelligence-wise.
Sadly, so far in my experience, most children are pretty dumb, for lack of a better word :-). That's why people underestimate them by default, never giving a chance to those who are indeed just as smart as many adults...

Some children are quite smart - possibly smarter than some adults will ever be. Most are not as smart as the average adult, however, and some will never be. None of this is really surprising?
Whether one is dealing with an adult or child, there's no need to make assumptions about intelligence. I mean, some kids can spell and proof read better than adults, or at least type out the word "airport" correctly :)

Heh, corrected. Thanks.

I think you underestimate the number of kids who are _smart_, because we put them through the same curriculum and then disregard what they say and desire when they are teenagers. It makes it very difficult to see the huge variation.

I take inspiration from Admiral David Farragut, who was captain of his own naval vessel by the age of 12 during the (US) War of 1812.
"Farragut was 12 years old when, during the War of 1812, he was given the assignment to bring a ship captured by the USS Essex, safely to port.[5] He was wounded and captured while serving on the Essex during the engagement at Valparaiso Bay, Chile against the British on March 28, 1814." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Farragut

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