Comment by avidphantasm | Hacker News Reader

Comment by avidphantasm | Hacker News Reader

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Thank you for elucidating the fact that US “borrows” in its own currency and so as long as we have monetary sovereignty (which we do to a great degree due to USD being the global reserve currency) we have no deficit problems (as long as we keep inflation in check).

I implore everyone reading this thread to read up on Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). Stephanie Kelton’s “The Deficit Myth” is a good place to start. Until more people have a better understanding for how the system works, they’ll continue to be confused and easily led astray by politicians who don’t have the best interests of most people in mind, but instead wish to rob us blind in a vain attempt to eliminate trade/budget deficits.

(Note: I’m very much for restoring domestic manufacturing as much as possible, including the use of highly targeted tariffs, industrial policy, R&D, workforce development, etc. but this is not what the current administration is doing, not even close).

    as long as we keep inflation in check

That's the trick though isn't it? MMT discourse tends to gloss over or ignore the dangers of runaway inflation and act as if you can borrow all you want with no consequence. But that part that you put in parentheses above is precisely why you can't do that. What you borrow for your budget has to be payed back later. If you just print money to do it because you borrowed more than you could afford then you inflate your currency. If inflation happens too quickly you have serious problems. It's not free money.

Taxes. Letting bubbles pop without bailing out the losers.

Both of those can be targeted in such a way as to deflate an inflated economy in a controlled way. The messaging is the hard part, as you're fighting against the emotions of a prideful workforce and the teeth-gnashing of the ambitious elite who see the stars as the literal limit. It is, however, possible to make sure everyone gets what they need to survive and even modestly thrive, while bringing the insanity of our current asset valuations and consumer prices back down to Earth, for a fraction of the cost of trying to keep the charade going indefinitely. You just have to throw rich people under the bus, instead of young and middle-aged workers whose purchasing power bleeds out every time we do yet another never-done-before thing to backstop failing banks and securities.

>That's a planned economy.

Man, do I have something to tell you about the FFR, porkbarrel spending, etc....

Taxes don't remove money from the supply unless the government is refusing to spend it. In which case that is just "reduce your budget and spend less" with extra steps. If you could do one you could do the other just as easily.

And letting bubbles pop isn't an MMT thing. It's bog-standard economic theory. The fact that politicians often don't do it has nothing to do with which theory they subscribe to. It's just cowardice on their part.

> In which case that is just "reduce your budget and spend less" with extra steps.

I'm pretty sure the extra steps are the point, in that I simply don't believe the MMT folks expect them to ever take place.

It's not a coincidence it's an American theory, from a country where it's politically almost impossible to raise taxes. Otherwise it would just be a roundabout way to raise taxes and pay for stuff in reverse order. But in fact it isn't "buy now pay later". It's "buy now YOLO LOL". But hey, maybe I'm missing something.

I don't know why one would think they would perform the extra steps any more than you would expect them to reduce the budget and spend less.

> MMT discourse tends to gloss over or ignore the dangers of runaway inflation and act as if you can borrow all you want with no consequence.

I see people say this a lot, which is odd since as far as I have seen it's one of the main points MMT people make. I'm not sure how one of the core insights of MMT has become the main criticism of it, it's kind of funny.

I suppose this is because some people have taken MMT to mean that debt doesn't matter, however that is really not at all what it says. I think a more reasonable conclusion of the system MMT describes is that how money is spent matters greatly (productive vs unproductive spending), the primary purpose of taxes is keeping inflation in-check, and real resources are critical to the health of a currency.

Exactly. The power of MMT is that it credibly explains what taxes actually are (not a source of government funding, but control rods for inflation and a constant source of domestic demand for the currency that helps maintain monetary sovereignty) and how to make sure spending is productive and not inflationary (e.g. through the currency issuer being the employer of last resort, etc.). You might not like it, but if you want to have a vaguely capitalistic system that has long term stability, you need to employ mechanisms like this.

I have not seen an explanation that makes the case for taxes as a good tool for controlling inflation. This is sort of what I mean by the discourse ignoring inflation. We already know what how inflation happens. MMT doesn't bring anything new to the table here.

> I have not seen an explanation that makes the case for taxes ... This is sort of what I mean by the discourse ignoring inflation.

I've not seen one that is properly based in reason either, most lines of thought in this vein typically use a strawman version of Say's law as the basis, following a deeply carved fallacy in economics from an early error of Keynes.

It really is bizarre that huge portions of economics nowadays sidestep the fact that individuals, groups, and countries, have finite amounts of credibility.

That it can be depleted and take well over an average lifetime to regain.

I don't think domestic manufacturing works anymore.

The pressure to automate will just skyrock.

I'm more for a global currency which will be given to everyone who does certain jobs we can't automate away or don't want to like nursing, teaching.

Everyone around the globe can get worldfiat when they do these jobs.

We need to start thinking beyond known capitalism in a modern highly automated world.

There are important reasons to have domestic manufacturing even if automated and not creating jobs.

Sure but that's not enough to give people enough jobs.

We want automation x1000, every useful automaton increases the quality of life by increasing productivity.

We don't have as problematic a deficit problem so long as reasonable sane people are running tr4e system and willing to turn on the printers when required so as not to generate excess inflation.

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