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Comment by alexey-salmin | Hacker News Reader

The referenced reply is dull. It's very pretentious but just reiterates common knowledge, it doesn't convey any useful information.

For example I wish someone told me about the existence of Miele kitchen equipment before I accidentally rented an apartment of a well-to-do woman. She renovated it for herself but then rented out when circumstances changed.

Similarly it took me a long time to realize just how much better the veneer wood furniture and doors are compared to laminated chipwood. Price is 3-4 times higher but it lasts 5-10 times longer and is much more pleasant to use. Unfortunately you need years to notice such long-term differences, unless someone tells you.

And I'm basically learning to be lower-middle class here. I'm sure there are similar things to know in higher stratas and I'm unlikely to live long enough to find out naturally even if I happen to get the money somehow.

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My mom worked at a law firm where one of the partners retired, moved to England, and bought a castle. As one does. He told this story while back in the States for a party:

Castles are old. And drafty. And need a LOT of renovations to bring them up to a modern standard. So he had immediately set upon this work, hiring contractors, picking out high-end appliances, arranging for the import of Italian marble countertops...

And once the place was looking nice, he threw a housewarming (castlewarming?) party, and invited all the folks from the neighboring castles. And at this party, he was regaling one of the old-money guests with how nice the downdraft range was, and how it really felt special with the new counters.

"Fascinating.", replied Old-money. "I have never been in my kitchen."

This is so dandy

That's a classic put-down (and a lie).

English aristocracy really knows how to cut someone to size when they feel like.

> how to cut someone to size

This, thankfully, only works when the recipient of the cut-down lacks self-assuredness.

If Mr. New-Money Castle Owner wears pride in knowledge & expertise on his sleeve, then no amount of snobbery will have an impact.

Have you ever read "Remains of the Day?" Not sure how close to reality it is, but it's a fiction book about the servants culture of those who worked for British aristocracy in the mid-20th century. I can see how a true British aristocrat would only have servants enter the kitchen.

Furthermore, it would be an insult for them to do so. That would imply that the servants' performance had been so lacking as to require some sort of direct investigation or intervention. At least, that's how it was explained to me.

Even medieval lords had to survey their lands from time to time. Competent aristocrats would periodically survey their belongings, if anything to ascertain that the good stuff was still there.

On a personal level I know several guys who are worth $10-30M, one who's worth probably $40M, and one who's worth around $700M, this is LNW.

Not much in the Reddit reply checks out for me. It's true that the $700M guy socializes with "Senators/Congressmen/community leaders." He travels a lot, and comfortably, but has no ownership in a jet. He retired young-ish and no longer works so maybe that's why. He doesn't flash his wealth around except to women he likes, and it's an absolute magnet for them, he gets pretty much any woman he wants to sleep with him simply by being a decent guy who's also worth $750M. I mean, they know that as long as he's dating them they will have a life of permanent luxury travel and not have to work, so not a surprise.

But beyond that he's pretty unassuming, doesn't flash his wealth, and mainly just likes to talk about finance and give people business advice.

The $10-30M people don't seem much different from me. Their contingencies for dealing with potential financial catastrophes run a lot deeper than mine. Their property is worth more and they do travel a bit more frequently and lavishly than I do. Idk nobody I know is doing this stuff where they're really fixated on getting into the best restaurant in town, or they're totally inaccessible except through their "people" and personal assistants.

I don't know a lot of it sounds like a type of person I don't associate with I guess, maybe I am not flamboyant and rich enough. I know there are rich people out there who spend like this guy describes; I interact with them very occasionally and briefly; I'm sure I am super boring to them; I question whether they remain that rich for very long :)

I don't know anyone who hobnobs with celebrities nor wants to. The comment is 10 years old, maybe Hollywood has lost its cultural cachet. Eureka, that's it: this is probably a post about Hollywood people.

what does LNW mean?

>what does LNW mean?

"Liquid net worth", I'd assume.

the NW of 700M guy increased to 750M in 1 min - does he sell eggs?

"around"

I was invited for coffee at a friend's friend.

He seemed a pretty regular guy, very friendly: kids playing in the pool. Nothing out of the ordinary except as many house employees as adult guests (and house employees where calling guests by their name).

I happened to know the artist Jeff Koons: not a big fan of the "inflated balloon dogs" but I do like his ballerinas. Well... Turns out the dude had one house destroyed then rebuilt to accommodate a 3 meters high Jeff Koons sculpture of two ballerinas.

I don't know exactly but I take it that's a $15m sculpture. I'd say most people don't know who Jeff Koons is and most people have no idea that some people shall just level an entire house just to have an architect redesign a new house, at the same place, so that a sculpture can now be admired from the living room, kitchen and garden.

He's got several paintings from Basquiat too. He's actually in the top 200 of the world's top art collectors (I found that out by googling his name after having been to his place).

And he's got his art pieces sprinkled around the world, in his many properties.

> The $10-30M people don't seem much different from me.

Definitely not very different. One little fantasy I saw not one but two people in that range do is buy several times the exact same car. Identical. Same config. Then they use one as a daily, and put the the others at different vacation places they have: so they land, take a cab, then get to enjoy the same car. Weird but I've seen two people do it, so I take it's a thing? One had identical Range Rover, the other identical Lexus.

Not real petrolheads: rich car petrolheads are actually going to own fancy stuff like old Ferrari 250 (even if "just" a GTE), old GT40, old Porsche, etc. which every body expects rich people to have if they're into cars at all.

But yup: buying x times the exact same car when times comes to change cars is kinda just weird.

> buying x times the exact same car

Triples is best.

https://youtu.be/8Inf1Yz_fgk

Yeah, surprise the linked reply doesn't mention art. There's no ceiling there. I suppose you can add actual Jurassic era bones to the weird stuff the wealthy seek out.

> But yup: buying x times the exact same car when times comes to change cars is kinda just weird.

Is it?

I'm on my second iPhone 13 mini, this one being the replacement after the first died of a drop. There are two more stored in the attic, each preconfigured with the accessories I like and with a SIM from my provider in the box. So if anything happens to this phone, as soon as I get home I just break out #3, restore the latest backup, activate the SIM and assign it the number, and I'm back in business at the same old stand.

An iPhone 13 mini with the accessories I like (case and charging adapter) is about $300. That's amply worth it to me, a couple times over, to never have to think about how to replace a cooked phone and get back into communication with my family and the world. Nothing special about the phone, it's if anything unusually unassuming. It's just the phone I happen to like (since 2021 when I concluded it no longer made sense to keep keeping 1st gen SEs alive) and thinking about phones is something I only like doing when I want to. That's the problem this money solves, and I have the money available to use this way, so why not?

Scale the dollar amount up a few orders of magnitude and the necessity down by the same amount, and sure, I see how it makes sense to "just" drop an identical set of wheels at every one of your pieds-à-terre. What did the funny sweary smoking man in the movie say? "You learn to spend what's in your pocket."

> Scale the dollar amount up a few orders of magnitude

But that's what makes it "weird". Most people can't afford to do that. As you point out, it mashed a certain amount of sense, but we're in the midst of an housing crisis. People who have enough money to own, not just multiple houses, but so many cars that they got tired of different cars so they just bought more of the same? Weird because I've never done that.

How many iphone 13 minis have you used concurrently, and in how many different locations did you own them? Byb your own admission, you only use one at a time.

I didn't say that it wasn't grotesquely flagrant consumption, only that I can follow the reasoning behind it. And I have made no admission of which I am aware.

A lie by omission is still a lie, in my world. You may inhabit one in which it is not, however

Now you've called me a liar. Would you like to try to substantiate that presumptive libel? Or do you simply mistake for virtue the inability you have cultivated to entertain a thought with which you don't agree?

I'd ask if you were new to the Internet, but no one would believe the answer of a liar.

Of the 261 words in your comment (archived at https://archive.is/Vfx9Z#selection-161.6-184.0), none of them mention that you see it as "grotesquely flagrant consumption", so reads like the meme about the temporarily embarrassed millionaire.

Why bother archiving a comment whose edit window has closed? What on Earth do you imagine to be going on here? Your account is twice the age of mine. Do you not know how this website works?

I will say, this no longer appears to me to qualify for the name I suggested a few minutes ago. Oh, the statement remains false, only I now no longer believe you competent to defame. Have you had a meal today?

Hmm, could this whole side-thread be summarized as: a meta thing rich people can do is wield larger sums of money without hitting the same "qualitative boundary exceeded" circuit trips that regular people might hit?

It feels like a bit of a tautology, but I think has some reality to it as well. When you're steeped in a more frugal mindset, it can be hard to remain rational or detached when analyzing consumption patterns "just a few orders of magnitude" larger...

No, I don't believe so. That just reduces to "you learn to spend what's in your pocket" again. That sentence turns on the verb "learn" for a reason.

If I had to guess, I would say I've been braced by someone whose morning was complicated by treating "take with food" as a little too much more of a suggestion than an instruction. No judgment. Nothing I haven't run into before.

I don't know if its weird. This seems to me using money to reduce hassle. At my even lower level of existence I do similar thing in sense I keep one pair toothbrush and paste in upstairs bathroom and another pair at main level just to avoid whatever inconvenience I've thought of in my mind. Same with multiple pair of glasses at different location I work from.

I have not done these things when I had less money and now I think removing minor hassles with extra money is worth it. At another order of magnitude of money I'd definitely acquire multiple copy of things I need.

We'd somehow have to poll a large randomized demographic as to whether having two bathrooms in which you brush your teeth is weird to begin with though.

We could talk about the lingering effects of redlining and the post-WWII housing crisis and how those manifest differently in different parts of the country. Or we could keep up with the weird conspiracy theory stuff. Your call, and I don't mind either way; this look inside your head that you don't realize you are giving has not yet ceased to fascinate.

Just wanna say I do a few things like this, too. Examples being duplicate toiletries and clothing I keep permanently packed so I don't need to actually pack when traveling. I have duplicates of the same vacuum cleaner and broom/dustpan combos on every floor of my house so I don't need to go down or up stairs to get one. If I was wealthy enough to have a vacation home, I could see owning a duplicate car to keep there, assuming I was a more typical person who drove more.

Exactly right. Indulgences become necessity when one moves up the affluence ladder.

I love your go-to bag example which I wished to have but never did. In a weird way because I have more time to pack but not much resources or time to travel anyway.

Why maintain a grip you never expect to need?

The incredible comfort of having readily available that thing which you never, never need, but for some reason you suddenly do now.

See, now you're speaking my language. I hate travel. So, one less thing to bother with when stuck doing it...I believe you may have convinced me.

> How many iphone 13 minis have you used concurrently, and in how many different locations did you own them? Byb your own admission, you only use one at a time.

It's not about concurrent use at all. It's all about availability. I had my simple, trusty Logitech keyboard and mouse. And 2x more of each, in a box, in a cupboard. I'm not using them. But I have the comfort of knowing that if either fails, I'm back up again in two minutes. That, for me, is comfort.

Now, if I had two workplaces (for example home and the office) would I carry my hardware between places? If I can't afford to buy two of them, yes. But if I can afford to pay 20€ twice, I'll have one keyboard at home, the same keyboard at the office, and so. That, for me, is comfort.

Now, scale the keyboard for 20€ to a Lexus for 40k€. Same thing.

I used to do exactly the same before. However, at this time I’m just having a backup (old SE) phone till I’ll get the replacement. Because, economically it’s much cheaper, plus I don’t need to bother with the new phone. If I’m being too worried over the time and energy investment of having to buy a new phone, I’d have one preconfigured. But why would you have two? Just to super-sure at least one would work? Or are you afraid they won’t be as easily accessible some years into the future?

I’m still having the 12 mini, so that’s why I’m not investing into having exactly the same. More likely I’d go with 13 mini, if this one would die suddenly. Or whatever else be on the market by that point. Theoretically, that can happen in 5 years. I’m holding the phone till it’s physically killed, or is unbearably slow.

Yeah, supply chain concerns.

I maintained five iPhones SE 1st gen from 2016 through most of 2021. Toward the end of that time it grew noticeably more difficult and slow to source model-specific parts and tooling. This time around, I know how to plan ahead more effectively. I had a 12 mini, but knowing Apple only drops a good small phone every half decade to keep us weird nerds interested, when the successor model came out I immediately upgraded.

I don't expect a real problem even in the worst case. The US is a huge internal market and has enough local internet to function. But for $300 flat I would otherwise just save anyway, why not hedge twice while I know I can?

Steve Jobs did this, he got a new car every 6 months yet for years only drove a 911, then an MB SL55. Why have to learn a new car when you like what you drive?

https://www.autoweek.com/car-life/but-wait-theres-more/a1704...

he got the new cars every 6 months because he could avoid then putting car plates on it (california weird law on new cars) and then not be able to be given tickets when he would park on his disabled spot at cupertino

classy mfer lol

No, they always had legit California "temporary plates" for the allowable (at the time) 6 months. They were very ticketable; his motivation was to keep his car relatively anonymous when driving around. Source: Me, living near his house and walking by regularly.

oh ty ty that does make much more sense than my absurd simplification

(note that they owned the parking, so its moot if they parked on a reserved spot on private property of theirs)

I guess not being localizable by press/random people is a nice plus if you can afford.

but didnt he buy always the same model?

You were actually right. See sibling comment to yours.

Yes, I didnt remember but that's probably the article I had read years ago and was thinking about!

I guess we both where right at different points in time ;)

> note that they owned the parking, so its moot if they parked on a reserved spot on private property of theirs

Eh, pedantry, but you'll find that building and occupation codes dictate a certain number of disabled parking spots. You could argue that a spot that is ostensibly this, but "everyone knows" is Steve Jobs' spot, is not a disabled parking spot.

(But yes, odds of the City of Cupertino taking any issue with this whatsoever are entirely zero.)

This article has a picture of one of Steve Jobs' actual cars with no plates at all (temporary or otherwise). It explicitly talks about a "new" requirement for new cars to be issued temp plates. Before that, brand new cars from the dealer had a 6-month grace period.

> "From 2019, California joins most of the other states in the nation by requiring newly bought cars to be issued temporary license plates."

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/07/steve-jobs-loophole-clo...

Thank you for providing the sources this is probably the article I read and had a vague recollection of

Right, not a plate: the 6 month temporary operating permit was taped inside the windshield, not on the back of the car, but was still ticketable. On the other hand, the car pictured is from after his death; all of his were black.

There's a story where The Woz pulled a prank on Jobs. Turned out he couldn't even be ticketed, because that parking spot was marked incorrectly:

https://folklore.org/Handicapped.html

(Apple personnel @ the time probably unaware of that technicality. Story says it wasn't fixed)

Thank you i think i had read that blogpost to exactly from some hn comments months ago!

> he seemed to think that the blue wheelchair symbol meant that the spot was reserved for the chairman.

lol

I would absolutely do that. Having to relearn instrumentation and optionals, how the car handles, dealing with its size, etc etc, is an absolute ballache. If you're not into cars, there is no novelty in having to drive two or three different cars just because you want to be near the sea this week and near the city next week.

If you were that rich wouldn't you just hire someone to drive well for you? But if you liked driving for the sake of it would it not be part of the enjoyment to learn to handle different vehicles well?

As people are discussing there are different level of rich. At some level one want to reasonably good car that they drive themselves. At another level maybe people send advance team to setup before owner reach their vacation mansion and drive them around, cook their meals, etc once they are there.

> maybe people send advance team to setup before owner reach their vacation mansion and drive them around, cook their meals, etc once they are there.

I can readily believe this does happen at the right level of wealth, but there's something deeply absurd and humorous about someone sending a vanguard to their second or third home before they arrive.

I mean the level of conveniences in developed world are already much much higher even for middle class that we don't even think of them as luxury it would be for > 90% of world population.

My very typical American suburban home on a 0.2 acre lot is better built, has better views, parking, heating, cooling and so on than a 3 generation rich (from my standards) cousins' home in India. However they do have half a dozen servants at home and I have obviously none here.

So it does sound weird that people seek even further from developed world middle class point of view.

I'm sure it varies, but personally I have a very prosaic reason that I would still drive myself in most scenarios: If someone else is driving I tend to get motion sickness.

Expense? Just hiring a car would not be much more expense but would require more logistics, as you would have to manage scheduling and calling cars. To get a dedicated driver, or team of drivers (to cover 24 hours) and vehicle would be significantly more expensive than a couple extra vehicles. Plus handling the logistics of setting them up to be ready and waiting for you each time you travel would be something else to manage, or would be something to pay a personal assistant to manage. Plus you could still use car services as needed whenever you didn’t want to drive.

Unless you had reached a level where you were having almost everything in your life managed by assistants, and you were the type of person that wanted to give up all that control, then have “your car” ready to go whichever house you were at would be the lower mental overhead solution.

> if you liked driving for the sake of it

Most people don't really like it, but find it to be the best option to go from A to B quickly. If you involve other people, be a driver or a renting business, you add complication and cost.

>Having to relearn instrumentation and optionals, how the car handles, dealing with its size, etc etc, is an absolute ballache.

I would 100% buy my old car again in like new condition vs getting a new one if it was a feasible thing to do.

> But yup: buying x times the exact same car when times comes to change cars is kinda just weird.

Not really, decision fatigue is a thing.

My colleague actually took me out car shopping a couple of weeks back, to the Ferrari showroom because apparently to get some models, you need to be one of their favorite customers or a referral from one. We also visited a Lamborghini showroom next (which apparently didn't have such restrictions). But deciding between their cars was so tough, and I really wanted to get an EV instead for my daily driver, that I just ended up renewing on my rental Honda Civic for a few more months lol. I could buy these cars, but I tend to be vested in things I buy, and suffer from FOMO for not buying the rest, so might as well postpone the decision to when I can afford to hold them all together and give them time to maintain them.

There's also the real problem with rose tinted glasses. For example, I was a huge fan of the Testarossa ever since I was a kid, but just one drive inside one showed me how badly designed it actually is in the interior.

I had a friend of a friend who made millions off FBA/dropshipping in the early days. He has the exact set of about 4 cars at multiple of his properties, all wrapped in a location specific color. Miami they were gold, LA they were purple, NYC they were black, etc.

> buying x times the exact same car when times comes to change cars is kinda just weird.

I would totally do that if I could. I have done it with shoes when I've had the good insight of thinking about it. I do it often with clothes when I find a good product that suits my needs. And I wish I could do it with my very-average-but-reliable car.

I'm dreading the moment I have to buy the next one and take the risky decision.

I am very fortunate to have an above average salary for where I am from, but what surprised me from going to pretty much broke to quite well off, is that my life didn't become flashy, it just became VERY comfortable with normal, everyday things.

Reminds me of a story a contractor told me: he was building a multi-million dollar house in Hawaii as a second home for a very wealthy California couple. He said they made the kitchen exactly the same as their other house. Same appliances, same cabinets, all the exact same dishes and silverware, all in the same drawers. People like what they like, and when you're hung over and reaching for the coffee cups in the morning, you know exactly where to find them.

Please remember that this is from 10 years ago. For wealth comparison, you need to take into account the valuation of assets in this period. What the author says about 700M, is probably roughly equivalent to today's 5 billions.

Nah, inflation in USA is not so high. [Hi from Argentina!] From this site https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/2015?amount=70000... it look like 700M in 2015 is almost 1B now.

The American inflation is nowhere close to this high

>What the author says about 700M, is probably roughly equivalent to today's 5 billions.

The cumulative inflation for the past 10 years is 35.6%, not 7x as you imply.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CPIAUCSL

> The cumulative inflation for the past 10 years

Without taking a stand on which metric is better for social and lifestyle comparisons, the grandparent poster said 'valuation of assets' rather than inflation. Per Yahoo Finance (https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5ESP500TR/), the S&P500 is about 340% of its mid-2015 level on a total return basis (reinvesting dividends).

Today's $700-millionaire would have been a 'mere' $200-millionaire in mid-2015 if invested fully in equities. That allocation is probably ballpark reasonable, since with that kind of net worth investment horizons are very long (multiple generations of inheritors) and the investors themselves can be nearly risk-neutral rather than risk-averse.

>the S&P500 is about 340% of its mid-2015 level on a total return basis (reinvesting dividends).

I appreciate the correction, but that's still nowhere near the 7x that the OP was talking about.

how did they create their networth, self made or inheritance

The way I think about it you can become a millionaire by yourself through decent strategy, a bit of luck, and a lot of (the right) knowledge. Over $10M you start to need other people who are probably giving you some of their labor at a discount or for free.

>I don't know anyone who hobnobs with celebrities nor wants to.

My wife has an uncle that uses his access to wealth and some connections to meet and develop friendships with sports players. It's not even that expensive but you do have to have the personality to be somewhat charming and have the ability to exploit connections. Once you have an in, you can extend that to others. If I had his money, I'd move out to the middle of the woods and never talk to anyone. I just depends on what you like to do.

> For example I wish someone told me about the existence of Miele kitchen equipment before I accidentally rented an apartment of a well-to-do woman.

Don't believe the hype. I got an apartment full with Miele kitchen equipment (from the previous owner, but less than 10 years old). They're nothing special, and I got a lot more random errors on the oven ("please contact service", tried that once, they were as clueless as you'd expect) than in my previous Siemens kitchen.

We are all Miele at home and for the next renewal, I will go to Bosch/Siemens. Too many small failures here and there (less than 8 year old). I was sincerely surprised because 20 years ago, Miele was the gold standard (at least in Germany). So, I agree with you.

Well see: by the time I learned about Miele it's already too late!

What about gaggenau?

It's the Bentley Bentayga of apppliances: same VW bones, fancy badge. Gaggenau is Bosch, exact same replacement parts fit.

I compared Miele, Thermador, gaggenau, and regular Bosch 800 fridge side-by-side in a appliance store.

There is nothing on those higher end versions which make them worth anything close to the markup on the Bosch 800 fridge.

If I'm going to spend almost 2X, you better give me at a minimum fully metal and glass construction (almost no plastic). I get slightly more metal and slightly (very slightly) stronger plastics. That's about it.

What a scam. Don't buy Miele or gaggenau. If you want a truly high end fridge, you'll need a built in made by someone like subzero or its competitors.

I really feel that Bosch/Siemens are the best deals right now and there are only minor differences between them (a Simenes freezer might have an extra light fixture whereas the Bosch one does not).

Thanks! The thing that made me consider them were some deep dives into their ovens and counter top cooking surfaces. Those actually do seem superior. Have you compared them?

I know that German brands get a lot of cred, but I have never really experienced it much. And thinking about it, it kind of makes sense:

Who in first world developed countries, that is smart, competent, and capable, wants to take a ho-hum salary to develop home appliances? From an economic and financial perspective, it doesn't make sense for Germany to pump out high quality innovative home wares. The brightest German minds aren't working on stove tops, nor should they be.

It makes way more sense for emerging economies to dominate in the space, and unsurprisingly China now seems to be the global hub of mid-tech manufacturing, with lots of innovation in this space.

It makes sense, in Europe, German people are the ones spending the most in kitchen hardware (both appliances and furniture). So naturally, companies have been serving this market. Anecdote, high end Miele appliances have been running Linux for a couple of years.

wasn't there an article posted recently where the bosch dishwasher needed the phone app for common funcitons?

Yes, but they keep a series without these "cloud" (dis)functions.

> Price is 3-4 times higher but it lasts 5-10 times longer and is much more pleasant to use.

"The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. ... A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. ... But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socio-economic unfairness."

I'm curious about this though, does a rich man actually wear the same pair of boots for 10 years?

That being said, I've noticed that a lot of clothes that I bought 10 years ago or so are of pretty high quality compared to today, (and no, they are not rich man's clothes). Some of them I actually have been wearing for more than 10 years now.

Oh hey I'm uniquely positioned to answer this; though I'm in tech (and at this point frankly speaking well-compensated) my family have been bootmakers for decades.

I'm sitting at a tech office right now wearing a pair of boots that my father made for me in 2015 - regardless, they're absolutely spotless and I'd wear them to a formal event without hesitation. Every 6 months or so when I'm by his store I shine them up and put in a fresh pair of leather laces. Every 3 or so years, he re-soles them when the soles eventually wear out and lose traction. Eventually they'll require a rebuild, but they've got probably another 5-10 years of daily wear in them before that. I've got a few more pairs I swap between every so often, like a pair with OD green canvas that looks nice with khakis, but these solid black ones are my daily wear.

While 10 years sounds like a good run for boots, my father has a pair at ~35 years old now that he still wears frequently. IIRC they've been through one or two rebuilds and few re-soles in that time.

Were these commodity sneakers, I'd be purchasing a new pair every few months. Even nice running or trail shoes only tend to last a few hundred miles in my experience, but I've put tens of thousands on these and will get ten thousand more easily. Re-soles and rebuilds aren't free, but they're less than a replacement and put years of lifetime back on the boot. They're also comfortable as hell and fit me like a glove.

So in short: yeah, rich men do wear the same pair of boots for 10 years, or even far longer.

https://franksboots.com/

Are you these guys? One techbro recommended these to me and my cofounder and I've never looked back. Your boots are going places, literally!

Edit:- Changed link to direct.

Yes, that's my family's business, I'm glad to hear you've had such great experiences. Similar to you, I've never looked back; every time I put on trail shoes I yearn for my boots again.

Your boots have withstood the Amazon forest and the floodwaters in Kerala, India, is all I'll say. Nothing more.

Any objective comparisons to Whites, Nicks, Thursday boots?

Purely anecdotal, but I know friends have used Nicks without issue. The basic advice I got was to buy jackets and leatherware from places in Washington and Oregon.

Not all boots are made the same though. I had some bad luck with a pair of veldtschoen welted boots from the English firm Crockett and Jones in a custom leather. The commando sole split twice at the toe, which they repaired, but after less than five years of wear the lining at the heel had worn through.

I took them in to be rebuilt, but after inspection they said the stiffener had come loose, and nothing could be done. Here have your expensive and now broken boots back.

I'd assumed when I got them I'd be wearing them for decades, and at least a few rebuilds. Maybe there was something wrong with that specific pair, but I did have a goodyear welted sole randomly detach from a pair of six month old city shoes from the same firm. And yes I had been looking after my shoes (frequent cleaning and polishing, always using shoe trees, skipping days between wears, etc).

When I had a pair of Church's fall apart I put that down to them no-longer being a quality brand, but now I don't think you can guarantee a long life just as the shoe was expensive and from a reputable brand. I have many shoes that have lasted better (and now since covid I don't wear polished shoes daily), but that does sometimes feel like luck of the draw.

When I had a pair of Church's fall apart I put that down to them no-longer being a quality brand

Church's was unfortunately bought by Prada, and is now a fashion brand more than a traditional high quality shoemaker.

I bought Levi's 501s at a farm supply store in the 80s, $12 on sale. About 10 years ago I gave away my two remaining pairs. They were a little thinner but still intact, no holes anywhere. Modern 501s are made of much thinner fabric; I'd be surprised if they would last 5 years. Looks like the sale price is $45 now, which seems comparable.

I bought a pair of 501s recently and they barely lasted 6 months. I do a fair bit of cycling which seemed to very quickly wear through them. I'm really not sure what to buy if I want things that last a long time now.

Levis are fashion products, not workwear. But even if they were, if you want things to last a long time then buy things made for a specific purpose. Denim products made by cycling brands are a rarity for a reason.

You don't have to be rich to buy shoes ([1]) that can last you 10 years if you take care of them and re-sole them few times.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodyear_welt

Of course. And also it may be less expensive to buy 5 pairs of shoes that last 3 years each than 1 pair that last 15 years. Anyway the rich don't get rich because they can buy better clothes or appliances, they can buy them because they are rich.

"you can't save yourself rich"

(but with compound interest and market growth, ...)

One thing that better brands seem to have is longevity of sales.

If you find a good pair of boots, you can probably buy again without going through the investigation of an equivalent replacement.

That something to appreciate when you find something good.

Probably $200 for a good pair of boots

$200 is enough to get you a pair of Keen boots, which will last a year or two. Truly "good" in the boot world is hand welted hand made leather boots, which are a rarity these days. There are functionally only a few bootmakers that still manufacture this way these days, and about half of them are all in the same Washington State region :)

Expect ~$400, and it's easy to spend $600 without much effort.

That said, look at my comment above in this thread; they do really last 10 years or more, so the investment is well worth it.

You can get goodyear welted boots which are decent and will likely last on the order of 10 years for 200$ if you're willing to let the person hand stitching it for you be brown and overseas (i.e. buy from Thursday who will make them in Mexico or Portugal)

Hell, Schott will sell you a pair of made in the USA goodyear welted boots for 300$.

Yes, I have an 8 year old pair of boots that have been through all sorts of conditions, all over the world. And I don't even do anything to maintain them. You can get very good boots for $200.

Back in 2016 when I didn't have much money I reluctantly bought a pair of Salomon hiking boots for what I thought was a crazy ~140€ price tag.

After punishing them heavily with hiking, working (concrete, dust, mud, stones, rocks, metal, paint...), running, sports, climbing... they are quite weathered but as good and comfortable as new. I just wish I could buy the same exact ones again.

This is one economic function of loans: borrow money to buy the more expensive boots, pay extra in interest, but save money in the long run. Assuming it is in fact cheaper to buy the more expensive item.

Loved the book! :)

But on the other hand, consider running shoes - most modern ones, even the expensive ones, will wear out in a few hundred kms and are usually non-repairable.

> Price is 3-4 times higher but it lasts 5-10 times longer

The problem is that if an Ikea furniture lasts 15 years then that's enough. People no longer need 50-100 years furniture, because nobody wants to inherit old stuff anymore.

Life's circumstances change faster and buying quality often isn't worth it. Maybe a Miele dishwasher last twice as long at double the price. But it will become old after 10 years even so.

> People no longer need 50-100 years furniture, because nobody wants to inherit old stuff anymore.

I'm going to challenge this assertion: did anyone, ever? Looking around in my parents' house (retirement age), there's no furniture from their parents (post-WW2). I don't remember whether my grandparents had any furniture of their parents in use either.

I do recall going to the charity shops and finding older wooden furniture; while I recognize it as better quality as what you can get today, at the same time it's no longer useful today. TV cabinets (with doors) for CRT TVs and video tapes, writing tables, those kinds of things are obsolete. Tables are timeless though.

But also, over time a lot of that old furniture was either destroyed or bought up and exported. What you find in the charity stores near me today is mostly 90's and onwards.

> did anyone, ever?

Yes. Pre-railroad people mostly didn't move and inheriting furniture was extremely helpful. Go back earlier and the cost of buying your own furniture would have been prohibitive.

> Looking around in my parents' house (retirement age), there's no furniture from their parents (post-WW2). I don't remember whether my grandparents had any furniture of their parents in use either.

My parents are both 70+, they have 3 big cabinets from their parents, made from solid wood. I’d not mind having them in the right place. They look and handle great, only the drawers could use some finetuning ;)

Beds, tables, chairs. Only "style" has changed.

More than style. Humans are generally taller than in the past (a good diet will do that) and thus old furniture won't fit the modern body.

A modern mattress won't fit on the old fame and will be more comfortable. If you replace the stuffing of the old mattress maybe it will be as good.

Beds I disagree with. Modern high end mattresses are far more comfortable and ergonomic than old mattresses.

I have a >40 years old spring bed. I prefer it over modern beds, but I have never had the luxury to try out modern high end mattresses though.

Why the down-vote? I do have a >40 years old spring bed, and these "modern" beds I can get from Jysk or Ikea (or wherever it was gotten from) are awful in comparison, in fact, one of them broke after a month of use (with my ex) (it cost ~222 USD) and most modern beds I have laid on, they were all too hard for me, unlike the spring bed. The mattresses might be good, however. I have not tried the memory foam ones, for one.

sighs.

It might be because you're making a judgement about preference when you haven't actually tried modern mattresses and (presumably) toppers?

I literally said I have not tried modern mattresses though. I am sure they are great, and I have always wanted to get one.

I have tried new beds (granted, not as expensive ones) and they were worse than the 40 years old spring bed I have.

My grandpa had in his attic letters from his great grandpa (great great?? not sure how many generations)'s brother back in Germany, written around 1860. The letters were in the old script not used anymore, and language (Not German, but I'm not sure what it was). Grandpa got them translated and then following the addresses discovered some [great...] granddaughter was living in the house so he sent he a copy of the letters. She then found some cabinet described in the letter and was able to find it in the barn. Until she got the letter that cabinet was meaningless to her, but now that she knows the history it is an important part of her house.

This somehow a point in your question, but I leave it to others to figure out what.

Grandpa donated the letters to the local historical society so they are accessible, though I'm not sure how.

My stepmother (in her 60s) inherited or rather lot of furniture from her parents, enough to furnish most of a house. It’s spectacular and at this point it has to be well over 100 years old. She both wanted it and has lived with it daily for coming on 40 years.

And my wife inherited three pieces from her parents and they make up much of our dining room, and her uncle gave her two pieces that he made by hand, and that did not fit into his new house. I was dubious about the stuff from her parents, but it’s beautiful if dated and we’ve gone with a very “eclectic” decorating style, no room has to look like any other room. And now I’m very grateful for all of it.

actually most of my furniture is either inheritend (mostly from my grandpa and an aunt) or just "was there" in the old house (1835) I bought... Couldn't imagine living with modern Ikea junk.

Ikea has a range. If you choose the junk aimed at dorm rooms you got what you paid for. The rest sells easily at moving time, being a known commodity.

even the highest and ikea stuff is still complete junk.

BS. Let me guess... you are one of those "connoisseurs" who looks down on products that are a good value.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24829405

My entire house is filled with mostly inherited stuff. I'm frugal and grew up between both lower and old money upper class but i have to say if you can make it look coherent it's fine and has saved me tons. Where it isn't it's a mix and match of thrifted high quality and low quality stuff.

My electric standing desk and chair being one of those modern things that costed a couple of thousands but i got secondhand for a combined 200. The desk is built like a tank. For the chair i replaced the cracking armrest covers with leather.

I also have some hardwood old tables and cabinets that are a couple generations old and as functional now as they were back then.

Our house is full of second-hand 50s furniture though. At least some of it gets a second life, even if not from the children.

I am responding to this from my living room in Berlin, sitting on a sofa that belonged to my father, after having dined on a table he inherited from my grandfather. Both were brought with us when we moved from Brazil.

So yes, people do want to inherit the old stuff. I have some IKEA stuff (the beds were just too big, and mattress sizes are different), it just can't compare.

> Maybe a Miele dishwasher last twice as long at double the price. But it will become old after 10 years even so.

It... won't support the new dishes that come out in the 2030s?

Like, other than energy efficiency (and this is basically already into diminishing returns for appliances like dishwashers), what must-have progress are you expecting?

It won't require the Wi-Fi connection to operate (so definitely a reason to stick to my 12 years old appliances)

I'm not even joking: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43463200

> It says options with an asterisk—including Rinse, Machine Care (self-cleaning), HalfLoad, Eco, and Delay start, are "available through Home Connect app only and depending on your model."

This is happening now.

not miele

Yeah, I mean obviously don't buy a dishwasher with a wifi connection, come on now. But that's not mandatory.

Forgot the cloud account and app only available from BigTech platforms.

Don’t buy—well just like cars they are taking that less-profitable choice away.

Funny enough, that’s on the low end Bosch dishwasher. Their 800 series (which is essentially 2x the price) has no such restrictions because I guess they can “afford” to put the extra buttons on it.

IoT, and in the near future, arms for self loading and unloading. Who knows what advancement in UI will happen? If we knew what they were beforehand, we'd be doing then already.

For example, the microwave. Older microwaves have a cumbersome enter time, hit start procedure. Newer microwaves also have a "quick start" button for 30 seconds which you can just press four times to get it to go for two minutes, or enter the time if you need it to go for a while. Hardly the stuff most people will replace a microwave for, but definitely a feature expected of newer microwaves.

As far as dishwashers, there are also styling changes to consider - the white plastic of the 80's looks dated now and a chrome front looks modern. who knows what 10 more years will bring, stylistically? You may not be stylish, but for some, that's their bread and butter.

> IoT

Has no place in a dishwasher.

> and in the near future, arms for self loading and unloading

Pure fantasy for now; if it's ever not pure fantasy, go ahead and replace the dishwasher, I suppose?

> Older microwaves have a cumbersome enter time, hit start procedure. Newer microwaves also have a "quick start" button for 30 seconds which you can just press four times to get it to go for two minutes, or enter the time if you need it to go for a while.

... I'm 40, and every digital-control microwave I have ever used has that 30 second quick start button. So, okay, maybe that was an advance in microwave UX in, like, the 80s, but it was apparently the last advance.

Sidenote, I wish my washing machine had wifi, it'd allow us to see what settings our housekeeper is using and why our clothes age so much quicker than when we were doing the laundry ourselves.

They're probably using fabric "softener".

> For example, the microwave. Older microwaves have a cumbersome enter time, hit start procedure. Newer microwaves also have a "quick start" button for 30 seconds which you can just press four times to get it to go for two minutes, or enter the time if you need it to go for a while. Hardly the stuff most people will replace a microwave for, but definitely a feature expected of newer microwaves.

How old are we talking about? My microwave is exactly like that, and it is about 15 years old if not more.

Yeah, I have one like that from 2010-2013.

>Older microwaves have a cumbersome enter time, hit start procedure. Newer microwaves also have a "quick start" button for 30 seconds which you can just press four times to get it to go for two minutes

QS-QS-QS-QS-Start

2-0-0-Start

"Cumbersome"?

it's qs-qs-qs-qs, and yes, Americans, home of the Hot Pocket are that lazy.

Lazy, or more efficient? If you type a time and hit start, you're not microwaving until you're done with all the buttons. If you hit "QS" a bunch to reach the duration instead, the microwave starts cooking immediately on the first press. Your nuggets get done a whole second earlier!

Mine is "time cook"-2-0-0-start. Pressing "2" to start is some dumb preset program.

But that's not the point, it's usually not pleasant to find and press the buttons on the microwaves machine. Mashing the corner button a bunch of times is a nicer experience.

If it weren't the start button doing double duty as "+30 seconds", I would put my microwave in a more accessible location - space I rather put other stuff in.

I have a rotating knob on the micro wave, no manual digital input although it's only a few years old. Fwiw it could be a decade or two old

And I am happy with it. Pretty much prefer it to using buttons.

Just rotate it to about 30, done.

We have a pretty modern one that is a hybrid of these things. It has a knob that is a rotary encoder to quickly spin up a digital time, so it's become "flick of the wrist, START" to hit times I use frequently like 25s, 2m, and 2m50s at full power.

It also has the instant 30s button which my wife seems to prefer to the rotating input.

It's not just how long it lasts.

When we redid our kitchen our fitter had to argue with our whitegoods supplier for us.

The guy in the shop couldn't understand why I wanted a built in Miele fridge-freezer over what ever generic he wanted to off load. His argument was that nobody would be able to see the logo so it didn't matter and we should just take the cheaper item.

My argument was that the Miele was much more energy efficient and would be running 24/7.

Given that enegry costs have risen substantially since then I think I made the correct choice and that the difference in purchase price has more than been offset.

Of course nobody wants your garbage furniture that only lasts 15 years. And since I plan to live 50-100 years, I'd like furniture that can last as long.

High end furniture from brands that last 50-100 years (i.e. Hancock and Moore, Century, a lot of other brands made in the Hickory NC area) hold their value. Go to the estate sales near you and watch as the prices for pieces from those companies (also real mid century modern furniture) holds at least 1/2 it's value 10+ years later.

High end furniture is the kind, like goodyear welted boots, where you keep it forever and reupholster it every 10 years.

>The referenced reply is dull. It's very pretentious but just reiterates common knowledge, it doesn't convey any useful information.

This is a textbook example of why you can't get a serious answer to anything nuanced on a vote based platform. The low common denominator stuff that is easy to agree with gets everybody clicking the right-think button and to the top it goes. Anything with nuance or controversy gets buried.

Even this comment I am replying to probably wouldn't have wound up where it is did it not pay homage to the god of groupthink by cheerleading for Meile, though any other brand the upper middle class likes would have fulfilled the same rhetorical purpose.

Miele is considered special elsewhere? In germany it's one of the most common brands of kitchen equipment and probably the most common brand for washing machines. I personally consider them overpriced for the quality. My family rents out a vacation home with three units, all equipped with washing machines and dries from miele and we had a couple of them fail over the years.

There are pros and cons for "luxury" items.

Sometimes they're overpriced (Miele is), sometimes they're expensive to maintain (try get a stain out of marble), sometimes they're not durable (think of cashmere sweaters). There is no secret sauce that tells you whether the price of something you buy is a proxy for its qualities. And when you buy something expensive, you're kind of pissed when it breaks.

That's why many wealthy people go for the expensive luxury shit at first, like buying a Porsche, or a 30k kitchen remodel, only to go back to good old Toyota and ikea kitchen, cause they're just as fine and a fifth of the price / maintenance.

You usually learn those things the hard way.

As a person who's installed quartz countertops for a living, I'd shy away from IKEA kitchens. I agree with your point, but I'd take exception to the general quality of their cabinets in Canada at least.

Idk, I've seen 40-year-old Ikea cabinets being totally fine (in France).

Nowadays, the trend is that people buy the cabinet frames from Ikea, and then buy the doors, handles, and bottom support from someone else who makes more durable ones.

The thing is that with Ikea, I kind of know what I get. From a custom kitchen cabinet maker, I could get something that lasts a lifetime, or something that wears quickly.

There's been a severe decline in quality with Ikea though. I know that the cabinets prior to 2012 were significantly better than now.

Ah thanks for pointing out

Old IKEA is kind of different, 20 years ago they even sold real handmade paintings.

>Unfortunately you need years to notice such long-term differences, unless someone tells you.

Hardly rich, but that "veneer wood furniture and doors" are much better than "laminated chipwood" is common knowledge. But back in the day, poor and rich alike wouldn't look twice at either, but opt for solid wood furniture.

Well that falls under the "unless someone tells you" part.

It depends on your background. I grew up in Russia in the 90s, back then it was considered cool to put plastic panels on the walls of your apartment. Fresh and modern look, easy to wash, clearly superior to wallpaper. It was called "euro-renovation" as opposed to soviet-style or "grandma" apartments.

Worse material marketed as modern non-grumpy grandpa and what ever is so infuriating and so hard to argue against.

Hopefully I think this has changed though. Or I have become grumpy who knows.

Touch panel oven tops is my main hate object in this regard.

>Well that falls under the "unless someone tells you" part

Well, everything falls under "unless someone tells you" in the grand scheme of things.

But as far as furniture knowledge goes, it's of the most basic type, not something "just the rich would know".

Not really, many things you can observe and learn yourself fairly quickly.

Some others are very hard to observe yourself (e.g. the poisonous effect of lead) but by now they are embedded into the collective consciousness.

My worry is with things that are neither. In this particular context these are things that you know if you grow up in a rich/middle-class family, but hard to come by if you become rich/middle-class later in life.

Exactly this. Fashion often conflicts with sense. That is a universal truth. Even though the fashion might be rooted in some form of sense.

Mahogany and teak was in fashion around here for a while and oak went out the door.

Oak was considered cheap so we painted it. The fashion then change to lye treated. Then we went with soap treated oak.

And then one day Ikea came into fashion.

Price is an important function of choice. But we should not discard the fashion trends.

Rich people might have good sense. Or they may have a sense for fashion. But they are still just people like the rest of us.

So the "unless someone tells you" really rings true to me. Rather than equating rich with good and hence equating good sense with common sense - I think it is a really interesting question.

What opportunities and choices are not obvious to us have-nots?

I never believed that that getting rich would make me happy and solve all my problems. But I am quite sure that I would get a nicer set of worries and problems than I have now.

Would I like to experience that for just a day? No, thank you. Ignorance can be a bliss.

It is one of those Schroedingers cat like questions.

>Exactly this. Fashion often conflicts with sense.

That's the point. Most of it is flaunting waste of labor or materials.

Imagine how much labor it took to keep everything white from getting dusty and sooty in the era of coal and wood stoves and lamp and candle light.

More generally, it can be hard to distinguish between "luxury" products that are primarily more exclusive with very little functional benefit (or in some cases more fragile!), versus products that are Actually Good.

The display luxury category: anything by LVMH, Birkin bags, limited edition sneakers, Ferrari, etc

The "better product for more money" category: Miele, wood furniture, Lexus etc

> The display luxury category: anything by LVMH, Birkin bags

Birkin bags are also actually better products for more money, they can last quite a while with minimum care. They are display goods for sure but there is a qualitative difference between a good quality handbag from certain brands and a much cheaper one.

Just as an example, my wife's only handbag is a balenciaga bag that she's had for 12+ years, she's been using it to carry back food from restaurants, put anything she needs in it, etc... and it's still in good shape. In the end, her bag has cost her so far 60 usd/year.

So yes, it's not obvious to people not in the know but even products that seem to be display luxury category can actually be worth it from a quality perspective.

Here's where the literal gatekeepers separate rich people from the riff-raff/"new money".

You've been jonesing for a fancy luxury item since you first laid eyes on it (Birkin bag, some European watch, a supercar).

Now that you're rich and have enough to pay for the item in cash, you decide to head to their fancy store and treat yourself.

Once you get in the door, you're faced with the cold splash of reality - luxury goods are not available off the rack/off the shelf, even if you can pay for cash on the spot.

You have to prove to the company that you're a loyal customer before you can purchase the object of desire.

How? You have to buy several of their products.

see https://www.vogue.co.uk/article/buying-an-hermes-bag and https://www.wired.com/2014/10/herjavec-ferrari-laferrari/

How hard can that be? So hard that people have sued - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/21/style/birkin-bag-hermes-l...

P.S. The markup on these luxury goods is high - https://www.businessinsider.com/dior-italy-labor-investigati...

> Just as an example, my wife's only handbag is a balenciaga bag that she's had for 12+ years, she's been using it to carry back food from restaurants, put anything she needs in it, etc... and it's still in good shape. In the end, her bag has cost her so far 60 usd/year.

Some time in 2017/2018, I was in Decathlon and needed a bag for the other stuff I bought. Picked up a cheap rucksack for a single digit number of Euros, possibly €2 but it was ages ago now and I can't remember exactly.

It's still going fine, around 1/200th the price per year of your example.

>* they can last quite a while with minimum care.*

People don't buy such crap because it "lasts log". There's tons of products with same or better quality than Birkin bags, better leather and materials, and so on, that are cheaper. It's the brand that sells.

Next stage is to realize solid wood is better than veneer wood.

Also miele has too much marketing hype. Want the ultimate appliances? Buy professional equipment. Like washing machine that are used in hotels.

> Buy professional equipment.

Just what I thought and wanted to add.

I guess if an appliance is used each day for several hours, that will last a lifetime in my home for use once or twice a week.

Downside: Professional kitchen equipment is also optimized for being easy to clean. Could be a problem if you don't like pure stainless steel very much... ;-D

Those are designed to have a service contract for continuous maintenance. Not the best idea for a home.

Most of them don't have a contract. And most homes wouldn't want the type of appliance that needs a service contract anyway.

On a thread about what the rich people do, not being able to afford a service contract isn't something the rich do. Ever have a IT person on call for your own house because you're to busy being rich? At some level of rich you want the service contract.

Eh, that level of rich doesn't care about a service contract. If their hyper-fancy, whatever gadget filled dishwasher/oven dies randomly because it's made like cheap shit and all the features are just checking boxes, they don't care, they can have it replaced within an hour, so the cook will just have to deal with only a single oven until then.

Which is why the rich are terribly undiscerning purchasers: the downside for them is some wasted pocket change. The time it took to consider the purchase already earned them more money than they will spend.

The appliances themselves however absolutely are built and designed to be serviced regularly to meet their expected lifespans.

> If their hyper-fancy, whatever gadget filled dishwasher/oven dies randomly because it's made like cheap shit and all the features are just checking boxes, they don't care, they can have it replaced within an hour.

What do you think a service contract is?

Not their problem. The staff might have that, or might not. The right person just knows the gadget is broke and an hour later the staff has figured it out.

There are a lot of middle class people who buy at restaurant supply stores. You can get some high quality stuff for similar prices to the "wal-mart quality".

That and the professional gear is optimized for operational speed (e.g. a glassware dishwasher that has a 10min cycle for a bar. Guess how much water/electricity it needs).

Industrial dishwashers use different detergents and operate at a much higher temperatures. Most dishes don't like either. Not to mention if you're in the US you probably want three phase power.

> Industrial dishwashers

Should be called dish sterilizers. They won't get dirt off - in industrial kitchens everything is rinsed first and then put in.

Home dishwashers get just as hot as the industrial versions (if you turn on those cycles - might not be allowed by modern code, but older ones do), and use harsher chemicals because they are expected to get clean after food that has dried on for a few days.

>They won't get dirt off -

Oh yeah they will. We used to wash car parts at the end of shift before cleaning and draining the machine.

>in industrial kitchens everything is rinsed first and then put in.

Because you'd be cleaning out the dishwasher strainer grates thrice daily if you didn't make a min-effort attempt to reduce its garbage intake.

They can, but that is not their job.

Two things:

One, there are things you can do with veneer that you cannot be done in solid wood. You can resaw a board to get a book matched panel in solid wood, but you generally cannot get a four-way match because of either pattern shift, not enough thickness to start with, or basically creating veneer the hard way. This generalizes to radial matches with more pieces. That's the most basic example. There are many other things you can do with veneer that are impossible to execute in solid wood. See here[0] for more examples.

Two: professional equipment is not usually built to the customary dimensions of a private residence. A commercial range is a hell of a lot deeper than standard counter depth (about 24" in the US, probably 60cm or thereabouts in Europe because it's based off of how far you can comfortably reach). I looked into this after getting spoiled cooking on a commercial range once. It's not the cost of the range that kills you; it's the cost of the kitchen renovation to accommodate it.

There are vendors that build closer to professional quality appliances sized to residential standards. We lucked into a used Capital range a year ago for a number of dollars we could afford. It's built a lot better than a strictly residential unit and has a weight to match.

[0] https://ctfinefurniture.com/ I am unaffiliated other than owning his excellent book, which I regularly consult when I'm doing veneer work.

It is harder to get solid wood to stay dimensionally stable.

All professional dishwashers I have encountered (there may be others, obviously) require thorough rinsing (either high-pressure handheld wand or a wipe with a brush/cloth) so they are essentially "clean" before going in the dishwasher.

The dishwasher sanitizes the dishes via very hot water and thorough coverage, but does not really clean anything. It has high temperatures and high throughput - 5 minute cycles. Basically a completely different use case and probably unsuitable for a home.

In covid had a whirlpool dishwasher that lasted less than 3 years (4 subsystems failing all at the same time)...it was either wait 2-X months for the Miele we wanted, or pay twice as much to have it today. ($2k vs $1k)

I'm uncomfortably enamored with this dishwasher. (Bought it over a Bosch as the percentage needing repair in the first year was 8% instead of 12% and I was flat done with it.)

The dishwasher is fully enclosed...the typical DW is open at the back with all the guts just barely contained in an open structure.

To balance the dishwasher, you slide it into the nook and turn two bolt heads that have a mechanism that raise the back of the dishwasher after it's set in place.

There are instructions on how to install matching cabinet faces...the buttons are on the top of the door...if you want zero indication you have a dishwasher, they'll accomodate.

While the drawers(?) are well thought out and can take a lot of dishes, it shines when you're entertaining, it flat SOAKS UP dishes and flatware and has cycles to safely wash crystal. We never seem to use this.

It has pucks full of detergent, a load now a days costs about $1.80...more than I'd like, but the simple avoidance of pouring soap and having a sixpack delivered when you need it is a crazy luxury.

5 years in and it's been faultless.

Do I understand from this that they lock you into... proprietary soap?

You don't have to use it, as the machines still have the option to use normal dish washer tablets. But if you want to use their auto dosing feature (in theory it works out how dirty your dishes are and does only as much detergent as you need), then yes you're locked into their proprietary system, and paying 2-4 times as much per wash.

Stockholders are all about the after-sale subscription model.

The convenience outweighs the cost at this point. I'm not proud about it.

You can toss a spoon of powder into any dishwasher before pressing go.

>The dishwasher is fully enclosed...the typical DW is open at the back with all the guts just barely contained in an open structure.

That seems.. fine? Why spend a bunch of money/effort on dressing up something that'd get seen for a few hours max?

>It has pucks full of detergent, a load now a days costs about $1.80...more than I'd like, but the simple avoidance of pouring soap and having a sixpack delivered when you need it is a crazy luxury.

Is pouring out detergent powder really that much of an advantage? At best you're saving a few seconds because you don't have to portion out the soap. Using loose detergent also means you can sprinkle a bit outside of the dispenser, which improves the per-rinse cycle. That means you're getting a worse wash by using tablets, because there's only detergent for the main cycle.

You'd be surprised. I don't like the lock in, but it sure makes running a partial load easy (which, yeah, blows the dollar cost ratio even more.)

Enclosing the dishwasher keeps the internals dust free...

It was awhile before I noticed, unlike every other dishwasher I'd ever owned, it didn't have a big heating coil sitting in the bottom of the dishwasher, the water heater is elsewhere.

Listen, the goal is not to convince you. I would never have purchased it had COVID not done what COVID did to the supply chain. But there are subtly significant differences between this and a $500 plastic Memorial Day special.

I think we have the same one.

Miele looks and acts high end. And that includes the repair costs because they frequently break.

No thanks. I’ll take something that is less so but will work for years without complaint.

Yes, but the quietness outweighs all other considerations.

Anecdata. I've had Miele washer, dryer and cooktop. No parts changed, no maintenance done on them since 1992. Works absolutely fine.

1992 and todays Miele might be the same. You know, 3 decades have passed.

enshittification is universal

Miele oven, hob (cook top?) and extractor fan all still work fine since they were installed around 2004 in my flat. The flat was even rented before i bought it.

You cannot necessarily compare a 1990s Miele product and 2020s Miele product. I've hardly ever heard of people having problems with their old Miele stuff, know several people who have had problems with their new Miele stuff.

Further anecdotally (from a guy who works at an appliance store) there is a difference in quality between Miele stuff made in their German factories and stuff made in their newer Eastern European factories (often their 'budget' line).

So what would you buy instead?

When we built a house 15 years ago, we declined all the "premium brand" kitchen items in the builder's spec, went to Choice (consumer advocacy and testing in Australia) and picked from the best-rated dishwasher, oven, stove top, rangehood, etc. All worked well and we were happy with all of them. On another occasion, the recommendation was Miele (vacuum) but not for any of those kitchen items in our case.

Worst experience I've ever had was with a Miele dishwashing machine at an AirBnB in the Netherlands. I like my Miele vacuum cleaner though

What happened to that then? ;) We bought a Miele dishwasher to replace a Neff which broke down after 10 yrs (probably 16 yrs worth of "official" usage) due to a silly design fault that caused it to leak. Thought a fairly basic model Miele worth a shot, as because it a stupid built-in, there's extra costs getting it installed, so longer it lasts the better. So far, it seems to clean to fairly similar standard to the Neff. Key thing is how long it'll last. Not made in Germany anymore , says made in Czech. Might be fine. But think they've cut some costs. We also own, assumingly, a "Tesco Value" microwave which cost £22 in 2006. Fairly ugly. Has just 2 controls - power level and time. Absolutely hammered, used every day for 19 years, still works fine. I kind of worry whether after this time it will emit more microwaves out into the open so I stand back even more when using it ;)

Microwave tech hasn't advanced anywhere beyond timer and power level. Everything else is just a gimmick.

Mine has hot air and grill functionality. Completely changes how I use my microwave. Would never buy a microwave oven that just has microwaves.

My microwave had an inverter rather than a transformer, which is a change I guess. Don't know if it's an improvement. I do know it was a disappointment to me when the microwave failed after 4 years and I went to salvage the transformer and there wasn't one.

I'd say that is not completely true. Variable power levels (on-off-on-off which certain cheaper microwave ovens do) are definitely not a gimmick, unless you like some parts of your meals cold and other piping hot.

Same for induction cooktops, but I digress.

Put some cups of water surrounding the oven in multiple directions from its front (assume that leakage from the back is less likely and that unless you have metal walls, it won't reflect in your direction).

Measure their temperature and take note in your notebook. Put another cup away from the microwaves but in the same environment to serve as control. Measure its temp and put in a notebook

. Turn off any air-conditioning or fans in the kitchen, any sources of heat, you know the drill.

Turn on your microwave oven for a long cycle (10, 15 minutes) measure temperatures in 1 or 2 minutes interval.

Plot everything and compare against control.

Love the Hacker News.

Thank you for this excellent scientific suggestion ;)

What would make a microwave start to "leak" microwaves over time? Assuming the enclosure is still intact.

I honestly don't know, might be paranoia on my part, but stuff degrades over time right? Maybe less good a seal etc.

A 2.4GHz wave has a wavelength of ~12mm. The concept of blocking the emissions of a microwave oven is to only have small gaps, much smaller than the wavelength, in the metal casing. That's why you can have those 1-2mm holes in the door window without having much leakage; the holes are much smaller than the waves.

So as long as the gaps on the doors and panels of the microwave are still aligned right and the door closes somewhat tight (only a couple of mm gap) you're still trapping the extreme majority of the energy in the box.

Thanks for the explanation. :) Hacker news is indeed to place to talk about these things ;)

Yeah dude. Its crazy to think about how electromagnetic waves can actually be large, as they're invisible to us. But yeah, EM waves can have wavelengths measured in meters, and can often be as long as 100M or more!

Electromagnetism is weird.

The only thing people look up on Miele stuff is to last 20 years minimum. That and maybe the cutlery tray on dishwashers, but the patent expired some time ago. Everything else barely matters if the thing is workable one way or another.

> Similarly it took me a long time to realize just how much better the veneer wood furniture and doors are compared to laminated chipwood. Price is 3-4 times higher but it lasts 5-10 times longer and is much more pleasant to use. Unfortunately you need years to notice such long-term differences, unless someone tells you.

Isn't this also down to age? That is, stuff like that built 100 years ago is - in my head - better quality.

However, this may very well be survivorship bias - of course anything built 100 years ago still around today is good, because anything that wasn't as good is long gone. Like my ikea furniture will be as soon as I try to move it.

I'm not looking into 100 years old stuff, that's mostly solid wood anyway.

I'm referring to my consistent experience of buying both laminated chipwood and veneer wood things, then seeing the former disintegrate within 5 years and the latter last 10 years with no visible damage.

It's all good now, I just wish it didn't take me 10 years to gain this knowledge. On another hand if I got it much earlier it wouldn't benefit me either because I could only afford cheap stuff anyway.

We still know how to make the things that last. Modern engineering can do better than the 100 year old things. However we also know how to make things much worse. They couldn't make chipwood 100 years ago.

>However, this may very well be survivorship bias - of course anything built 100 years ago still around today is good, because anything that wasn't as good is long gone. Like my ikea furniture will be as soon as I try to move it.

It's a 100% surviorship bias. The knockoff "ikea" style flatpack dresser that I assembled (incorrectly) when I was 12 lasted 20 years, and only finally went away because I was moving in with my girlfriend and we could afford slightly more "real" and coordinated furniture. It would have continued to work for longer.

The stuff that lasts 100 years is primarily just whatever is bought by people who treat their stuff well. That has vastly more impact than any product design excluding the modern planned obsolescence and negligence with electronics.

Basically any Toyota can make it to 250k miles, but the Million Mile Lexus is still impressive to people because it tells you about the history of the car more than the manufacturer. If you want to know what cars will make it to 1 million miles, you don't look at reliability stats, you look at what was bought by middle aged wealthy men who were good friends with very careful mechanics.

It's hilarious of you claim survivorship bias and then go on to cheerlead for Toyota. Take a step back and apply the same logic.

Of course a brand that sells appliance commuter and family hauling cars to people who are generally rich enough to buy enough extra capacity they're not flogging it and just pay to have it well maintained is gonna have them go to high miles. The first owner or two are basically "free" from a wear and tear perspective.

Meanwhile the average Nissan is getting driven hard right off the lot, missing fluid changes and the owner's kids are doing WWE in the back seat all right off the lot.

Unless you really wad it up any car will keep going until you stop maintaining it and get in a maintenance hole. If you never neglect to maintain it you'll never be in a hole where the sum total of needed maintenance is more than it's worth barring exceptional circumstances relevant to specific models with exceptionally high costs or low values.

> The stuff that lasts 100 years is primarily just whatever is bought by people who treat their stuff well.

This. It's equally funny and sad when I see new luxury cars with heavily scuffed rims. I don't care how well engineered the car is, it's not going to last.

I think you have a couple of good examples in your comment and I understand you would have liked more along those lines, but:

The referenced reply is dull. It's very pretentious but just reiterates common knowledge, it doesn't convey any useful information.

I disagree strongly - its not a multiple-gold answer that is now being linked to years later for no reason. I read it years ago and have always remembered it - one of those rare internet comments that I think is a classic informational moment, well-written and illuminating.

This is fascinating to me and I'm sure many people who read your comment. What did you learn from the reddit comment that you didn't know before reading it ten years ago? Why has it stuck with you?

I particularly remembered the gradations, but not the details. I remembered enjoying reading it and that it has insights into fantastic worlds and have revisited it at times, like I did here.

You also need to be able to afford the higher up front price. Sam Vimes boots theory of socioeconomic unfairness in practice.

> but it lasts 5-10 times longer

I find it such a weird argument. Ok, your furniture from 1900 is still doing great, fantastic. The problems are:

1. Your great-grandfather had a different sense of esthetics, so shit just didn't fit your modern apartment.

2. You moved to a different country, and shipping fees of the furniture were ten times the cost of brand-new chipwood furniture (literally).

3. The furniture was designed with usage in mind that simply doesn't exist in modern world.

4. It was made specifically to fill a certain room. Your new place has a different layout. Deal with it.

These arguments are even more true in the context of technology. "Look, my grandma's black-and-white TV is still working!"... great? I'd rather have a modern 4k OLED, but I guess that's just personal preference. Not to mention how having expensive things makes you a prisoner of these things. If your cat ruins Ikea cabinet, you'll be angry for a day. If your cat ruins your family heirloom, you'll be pissed.

We're not talking of centuries here. Laminated chipwood looks like shit in a matter of years. I can replace my phone every year but for a kitchen table or a bathroom door it's ridiculous, way too much hassle.

I disagree. Sure, it wears down faster, but it still can last you just enough.

The best interiors feel lived in but not stuffy. A few old pieces of furniture can help achieve that. Part of the skill of interior design is making these pieces work together in new ways.

You don’t want your home to feel like an ikea catalog surely!?

> You don’t want your home to feel like an ikea catalog surely!?

I do. Now what.

You go to IKEA!

> You don’t want your home to feel like an ikea catalog surely!?

Who wouldn't? The people that arranged the furniture in those renders have a much better idea of interior design than I do.

Design it's just a shitty word that means "I'm too poor to afford good materials".

It’s your home. Nobody knows how it should be better than you.

There's at least one YouTuber that makes a decent living off of taking people's home design and improving it, so that's not universal.

If it were up to me I'd be stuck at the local optimum of standing desks with workstations randomly distributed through the apartment and a mattress in some corner.

Thankfully my wife also has a vote on things.

Not sure why the fixation with Ikea, they provide decent value at given price point (as in better than competition, but still within their cost band).

Anyway one prime example I can see - we have rather bigger kitchen, and storage is its prime function. Anything below waist needs to have pullout drawers, its supremely more practical and simply more efficient for storage. You don't need to go on your knees every time you need something deeper in bottom one. For older folks this is an absolute must. Good luck finding any older kitchen that has that. Same for any drawers ie for clothing.

And there are much better modern tricks than just this very basic one.

> provide decent value at given price point

That is the reason for the fixation on IKEA: the "decent" part. If their peers are Target, Walmart, then to be sure IKEA are decent.

Even during assembly though I've had joints fail such that the finished piece of furniture is, say, 90% structurally sound. But then trying to disassemble the piece so I can move ... I'm lucky if I am able to disassemble it without additional component failure. And then the re-assembly after the move also takes its toll.

Sadly I've come to see IKEA furniture as disposable (I sure don't see it in the local Goodwill). And that is the problem with IKEA (and Target, and Walmart) furniture: it goes direct-to-landfill with a move.

one thing to realize with Ikea is that they have different tiers of items. their hardboard furniture is somewhat disposable (and not disassemblable). their metal and plastic items, otoh are pretty indistructable.

Disassembly is the mistake. If you need to move Ikea furniture, you do it as constructed. If it breaks, c’est la vie. I have successfully moved several Ikea pieces without issue.

> best interiors feel lived in but not stuffy. A few old pieces of furniture can help achieve that

I have a few old Ikea pieces for that.

Hum, that's fair points but don't contradicts OP's arguments:

1. OP finds it "much more pleasant to use" which I believe includes the aesthetic side. "your modern appartement" is your take, but is it? and how old modern? There's an universe of different styles that have been implemented in the past, in a multi dimensional sense: it may be influenced by the state of the art of that time (available tools, wood...), the vogue (not necessarily correlated with state of the art) and the context (unique fancy piece for someone wealthy that paid for, unique simple piece for your family, small series by a semi industrial workshop).

2. True, however your old chipwood furniture may not be newish enough for the next householder so A. he/you needs to ditch it B. buy a new one. With a quality furniture you often can re-sell it at almost the same price you bought it, there's no devaluation but only a seller commission if you don't want to bother.

3. I have in front of me a drawer that was build by the gran-gran-gran-pa (yes!) of my wife and... drawers are drawers. Same for stools, bed or tables. I understand your point as there's usages that are lost like furniture-like-clock but some others weird stuff still come back every time because they actually are clever [0]

4. I'm not sure what you're talking about: integrated kitchen (and so) are made to fill a certain room, not the wooden furniture I'm familiar with that you can literally place where you want. New place and not enough space ? Sell it (the the new owner or someone else) and buy another one that fits better. You hardly sell a cheapwood furniture. Moreover, moving to new places have other drawbacks to deal with that you take into account when making the decision. I'm not arguing you sloudn't move, but it's a process that isn't always trivial. For exemple many US residents won't be able to bring their tank-car aboard for legal and/or practical reasons. Or their digged swimming pool. Or whatever if they move to inner Tokyo.

TV => The image quality is wined by the news devices image, however ss you mention "expensive things" I'd like to point out a B&W tv is probably way cheaper and robust that and the 4K OLED one. But there's room for choices in-between, and I a agree the argumentation works better with furniture than electronics.

CAT scratch => That's the beauty of the made-to-last furniture: Wood ? sand it, a bit of varnish and you're done. Fabric ? tear off the piece and nail a new one. They're not museum pieces but day-to-day home helpers.

[0] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confident_(siège)

> I'd like to point out a B&W tv is probably way cheaper and robust that and the 4K OLED one

Where would you even find such a thing other than as a curated, carefully expensively maintained antique? Sure you can buy them second hand on Ebay, but the shipping costs of CRT TVs are pretty big. Everyone has a "flatscreen" TV because that's the default cheapest solution.

Shipping and handling costs are a big factor in the death of large, heavy traditional items.

I agree, the rarity makes it more expensive today. The only cheap option would to "keep" one of yours/you family but that's not an option for the most, not speaking of the connectors nightmare. The electronics sector evolved way faster than furnitures, making a giant leap in a few decades.

People have different tastes. There’s nothing weird about that at all.

Not a universal view. I don't have a modern apartment (I've lived in them and don't enjoy the æsthetic of a straight, unornamented beige and glass box full of postmodern slab furniture). I have a stone cottage from the 1600s. If anything, my 19th-century solid wood furniture is too modern!

> I have a stone cottage from the 1600s.

Is that a thing wealthy people buy but ordinary people know nothing about?

It’s something Europeans buy. :)

In the UK. I know a couple who bought a really old house then spend 3 million on renovating it "period correct", even down to the paint to use plant-based materials only as that was how it was done in the 17th century.

Heated toilet seats with bidet. You will never want to go back.

move to a warm country and that problem is solved.

A luxury reserved for your ski chalet, then

Not sure if Miele is still what it used to be. To my knowledge Miele products tend to live a tad longer for almost twice the price.

I do wonder what household appliances these homes have that Enes Yilmazer shows on his YouTube channel. It seems it's always the same huge black/silver color washer and dryer.

The referenced reply covers several tiers of wealth and, to be sure, can be simplified to: as you move up in wealth so to does your access to real estate, luxury and political power.

But your comment on Meile, nice kitchen cabinets, sounds like you're looking only for what the next tier above you is enjoying. (And go Bosch for the dishwasher, BTW.)

> But your comment on Meile, nice kitchen cabinets, sounds like you're looking only for what the next tier above you is enjoying.

No, not really. These are examples of things I know from N+1 level. I'm curious to hear about N+2, N+3 and so on. Some of the points shared in this thread fit nicely, like "buying identical cars in locations you visit often". Or something like "don't by 488, find a used 458 instead -- it's more fun for lower price" would be appreciated.

The original post instead just rambles like this: "I know rich people, let me tell you how rich they are. You wouldn't believe it. Like, really really rich. Like they have their own island, you know".

I don't see how that's useful.

A lot of things aimed at the middle class are better than what is aimed at the rich. There are not enough rich people pay engineers and so you end up with a $30,000 appliance that has the same features as the $1000 version and is lower quality because the few people who can afford to spend that much isn't enough to work out all the over time, while the lower priced models they release a limited run and then watch to see what breaks and fixes that....

Sure. I'm not interested in high-quality appliances per se, it's just an example of something middle class people buy that poor people aren't really aware of.

The original question still stands: What do insanely wealthy people buy, that ordinary people know nothing about?

By the definition of the question I can't know the answer myself: I am "ordinary people" so I must know nothing about it. So what's left to me is to suggest parallels at the level I do know something about.

Another example of a "middle class thing", not related to things or appliances: services, in particular moving. I changed flats many times in my life, more than 10. I used to pack, load, unload and unpack everything by myself and at some point it started to take 2-3 days of my time full time. Then one time I contracted an end2end moving service (you just give them the keys) and I would never ever go back.

Recently a friend of mine was moving and asked to help to load the truck. After an hour of sweating I asked why he didn't contract someone -- this idea just never crossed his mind. A year later he was moving again and was grateful for the advice.

Surely, rich people enjoy services that would never cross my middle class mind? A governour for the child maybe? Well I would never know.

> A governour for the child maybe?

That's very much country dependent. I live in a country where anyone middle class has a house keeper either from Phillipine or Indonesia (cost about 10-15k usd a year if you're not an asshole and don't pay the lowest possible salary). That housekeeper's work is to take care of the children and do the housework. Upper middle class people have two. Then the next level up is to also have a private driver.

Governor/Governess is after that, I know two people who do it, they hired someone directly from UK for about 45k usd a year. That person takes care of their child and helps with education/homework etc.. Main advantage compared to the housekeeper is that the governor is more educated and so will be able to actually teach things to the child. But it's not necessarily super common and I know plenty of rich parents who decided not to do that and instead invest more heavily on tuition/activities and later (starting from 9-10 years old) summer camps at Oxford, Cambridge, John Hopkins, etc...

> Price is 3-4 times higher but it lasts 5-10 times longer and is much more pleasant to use.

If you are rich then you can buy something that is 20 times more expensive and lasts twice as long. The efficiency doesn't matter as much when it's chump change either way.

anybody can elaborate more about the miele? why miele?

Generally at least some models at least used to be very reliable. Like I just discussed with my parents that their clothes washer is over 20 years old. And been in regular use without any issues or significant maintenance. That sort of lifespan isn't really expected from even premium models from most brands.

So they do have perceived quality of being more expensive but more long lasting goods.

I've had the same Miele HEPA vacuum cleaner for 35 years. I've replaced various pieces on it over the years. The bags are still available. It refuses to become obsolete.

I’ve had to repair my Miele dishwasher several times. (Faulty heater relay, common problem with the model.) also coincidentally the spring in the door broke yesterday. Otherwise it does clean the dishes very well and it’s quiet and attractive looking.

I bought it because they have a good rep. But I’ve owned this dishwasher for 15 years and it’s still going.

My Fisher and Paykel fridge I’ve had for 20+ years and it’s never needed any maintenance whatsoever. To me that’s pretty amazing.

I got one because it was the only reasonable model I could find with a water softener built in. It lasted a good while (~8 years) and performed well i.e. no hard water stains on dishes. After 8 years it developed a grinding noise in the recirculation pump which pointed to broken gears and a replacement which would cost in the ballpark of a new machine so I replaced it.

The design itself has some "German overfeatured" idiosyncrasies to me. Like, when the wash is done, a little stick extends out of the top of the machine pushing the door open to vent. But then, when you tug on the door to open it, you can hear a little geared motor spin and retract that stick. Just more stuff to design, add to BOM, and to break.

Disagree it lasts 5-10 times longer. IKEA kitchens will last anywhere from 10-30 years. 5-10 times longer is 50-300 years, which is well outside the range veneered hardwood kitchen cabinets will last.

depends on the ikea product.

I had ikea stuff that:

- bubbled when liquid spilled on it

- scratched easily

- had screws loosen over time. basically all of them

(this was non-kitchen stuff, I just haven't bought a kitchen from them)

In Europe, Miele is definitely understated wealth, so are hardwood floors in good condition (20+ year neglected floors don't count). Geothermal heating systems.

> Miele kitchen equipment

That's... pretty standard in Europe

Miele is a pretty well known standard german brand no? I'm sure they have higher-end stuff but i dunno, maybe you could have researched it, or just didnt find the need before?

There's a pretty good saying about 10$ boots that last a year or 100$ ones that last 10 years

If you're well enough, you can probably afford more things that you can use anyways, so it makes sense to optimize for those that give you the most kicks for your bucks, even if they're technically more expensive.

> Miele is a pretty well known standard french brand no?

Miele are German in fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miele

ty fixed that lol sounds frenchy to me (the name tho)

It means "honey" in Italian.

Oh that does make a lot of sense and maps easily to -miel- in Spanish or just -mel- from latin.

I love how similar all latin-based languages look like at the roots

Same experience. We found Miele in the apartment we bought. We understood the why for the price. Worth it.

Honestly, Miele is the brand of choice for anyone middleclass over 40, at least in Europe, so I'm sure most (grand)patents would have told you. Not exactly a 'secret'.

> veneer wood furniture

If I were wealthy, I’d be getting solid hardwood…

Well so would I, too bad I'm not wealthy.

The only Miele you want is the vacuum cleaner.

The only vaccum cleaner you want is a central vac (Miele doesn't make these).

Central Vac's are easily 4X as powerful for often the same price as the over priced Miele stuff.

Thanks for the info! Do you happen to have references?

> existence of Miele kitchen

i'd pay not to own Miele

Except Miele is not a luxurious brand it's just a slightly highend piece of equipment.

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