I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud
jeffgeerling.com
jeffgeerling.com
I ran into the same situation. I specifically told the salesperson I didn't want wifi, and they told me it's only if you want it to operate from your phone.
I was done installing it and got rid of the packaging by the time I read that it needs to use their website for some functions.
Beside the fact that I doubt the store would take it back after using it for a week or two and havi go no packaging, I had no time nor energy to remove it and return it.
I tried to contact Bosch who keep redirecting me to some other I ternal department and eventually stop responding.
Do NOT buy a Bosch diswashe, even though you pay full price upfront you cannot use all the functions without creating an account on their website and have them run those functions for you.
Not much point in the app unless you want to transfer routes to a map app on the head unit, though.
Don't know where you are but in most countries that would be a valid reason to return it at any time you found it out. They lied to get your money, willfully is almost never a requirement.
1. there's probably no evidence of it
2. the workers at the store will deny it
3. the workers at the store likely have no grasp of contract law and will insist on whatever their store policy is
4. hiring a lawyer to return a dishwasher is a waste of time for most anyone knowledgable enough to know that this is a valid legal issue
1. _require_ dishwashers to have an Eco mode, not locked behind anything, but also
2. _require_ Eco mode to be the default. If you buy a dishwasher in the EU and turn it on, and press "start", it'll be on Eco mode, the mode that uses the least water/power.
If you don't care about the dishwasher other than to turn it on, and it works for you, then everybody wins. If it doesn't wash as much as you'd like, or takes longer thank you'd like, you can still have all the other dishwasher modes (express, intensive, etc.).
The whole point of the regulation is to make the default mode the most energy efficient. I find it absolutely crazy that a German company, when given free rein in the USA, would actually paywall Eco mode. It's just mind-boggling.
> I find it absolutely crazy that a German company, when given free rein in the USA, would actually paywall Eco mode. It's just mind-boggling.
... they didn't do that. There is no paywall.
All the functionality should be in the device itself, and require no sign-up or ongoing relationship with the company to use it.
> All the functionality should be in the device itself, and require no sign-up or ongoing relationship with the company to use it.
For a dishwasher yes, but I don't agree with that as a blanket statement. There are cloud connected devices that I really like. e.g. I like to run my Roomba on-demand after I leave my house, and I think that's an entirely reasonable use case.
Many other devices are useful away from home as well, which would all require internet connectivity. e.g. security systems, cameras, etc.
You pay with your data
When you register at HN you know that they need some data to manage your user account, for the same reason cookie banners aren't needed if all of a site's cookies are required for it to function. A dishwasher doesn't need a wifi connection or data to clean dishes, and if it's not clearly advertised before purchase that's effectively a hidden cost.
Perhaps nobody uses the word like that so far, but if enough people did it probably would turn out better for the consumer.
Security cameras are the classic example of widespread self hosted but internet-accessible.
Even the ones that have proprietary apps are often just alternative frontends to a web server running on the home network.
The typical MJPEG/ONVIF camera doesn't even remotely compete for the same customers as Ring/Nest/Blink.
Where I live internet access isn’t provided for free.
Y’all are doing acrobatics to twist the definition of a very common and clear word.
Similar with my AEG washer - a 40 degree cotton wash uses marginally more water than a 40 degree eco wash, but less power - and is 25% quicker.
Honestly, it’s not clear what the economy is supposed to be. Intensity of demand? Except on each appliance the heater runs at the same rated wattage when it’s heating - just different patterns of usage on eco mode, more off and on.
https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/...
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:...
You can also see there that they're tracking the effects of their regulations and measuring how much less electricity and water is used. The regulations also set minimum standards for cleaning, drying and energy usage so you can't sell products that look efficient but require everything washed twice, nor can you even include a resource hog mod.
And it mandates the availability of spare parts for a certain number of years, and access to repair information, so you don't just junk the whole object.
I can only imagine "Eco" mode being worse than other modes in some place where there's not good market regulation.
I just checked my own dishwasher, and its Eco mode uses 9L of water and 0.83kWh per cycle. Other washing modes use 9-17L water and 0.9-1.5kWh per cycle... so it does conform to the regulations.
The opposite, actually. Productive. Millions of litres of water and terawatts of power saved per year. End users collectively saving €1.3 billion on water and electricity costs in 2020 (in comparison to them having standard dishwashers from 1990 before any eco targets were set)
https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/...
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:...
It's almost as if they already thought this through when making the regulation.
I still have a bricked Android phone from nonsense like that. If you:
1. Factory reset the phone while not logged in to the last Google account on the phone
2. Have the Google account invalidated (e.g., using an identity verification app on a temp noogler account, ...)
You'll never be able to access the phone again. The "factory reset" maintains some internal state despite a scary message on the screen promising everything is deleted and asking if that's really what you want, and it'll require the last working password.
Alright ... annoying, buggy (the fact that there are two factory resets and one doesn't reset the device is a problem; either fix or delete the broken one, or make the scary message scarier), but fine in my case.
It checks that password against Google's servers though instead of the local hash, and it doesn't even matter if you know the password; the fact that the account is inactive prevents you from accessing the phone.
Apple is really really difficult about getting these unlocked. The carriers can't do it, you have to show them proof of purchase and have an enterprise support contract. With Google the carriers can just do it usually.
I managed a fleet of mobiles at work for a while, this is how I know. It often happened that colleagues returned a phone without unlocking it.
In the US I am not worried about people taking my phone even in sketchy areas. I'm sure they'd much rather have my wallet or other valuables.
And to answer the obvious repair question -- yes, parts can be rebound to other motherboards etc., they just need iPhone Activation to pass first.
[1] https://www.loveitcoverit.com/news/changing-world/mobile-pho...
That makes sense if they e.g. have a higher resale value, but only if they have a higher resale value and the thieves are choosing them on purpose as a result.
Even if they get $10 for a $1200 iPhone they are happy. And many components can still be salvaged and be worth more than that.
The IMEI is burned into the phone. They should definitely make it hard to change the IMEI; but they do. If the phone is stolen then the IMEI gets reported as stolen and anyone who tries to activate the phone with a wireless carrier gets caught.
Why does Apple or Google need to inconvenience people who forget their passwords or encounter the conglomerate's bugs?
And if the problem is that each country is using a different IMEI blacklist then that seems like an obvious thing to fix. There are already treaties and agreements which is how the global phone network operates to begin with, or you could have US law enforcement set up a system to submit the IMEI to each of the individual blacklists.
And the calculation for the carrier is different. There's a inherent incentive on unblocking a phone for the carrier, as this means a billable contract. For Apple there's a inherent incentive in being known as having devices hard to unblock and thus, presumably less attractive for thieves.
To my knowledge, Apple has not had any insider compromise of activation lock.
This is why criminals try to phish the credentials from the victim instead.
A phone must be purchased for us (with invoice with serial no) originally, or it must have been enrolled in our corporate MDM before getting locked. And for a while they didn't even accept the latter.
So even if you are at a third party you won't get away with sneaking these through. Which is good, a bit annoying sometimes though when some of our vendors didn't provide serial number invoices. We now require it but during the first years of anti-theft lock it was a bit of an issue and caused a lot of e-waste for us, sadly.
First they would have to get caught.
> This is why criminals try to phish the credentials from the victim instead.
Either method would be effective and not every criminal would have access to an insider, or they would have to pay off the insider for each device and then still prefer to phish the customer if possible to avoid paying the bribe.
Even if that wasn't the case, as long as there were at least a few decently-sized countries not plugged into the system, that's where the thieves would sell all their devices.
Stolen Apple devices are still usable for parts (which is why parts pairing is not always a bad thing), and you can sometimes phish the Apple ID credentials from the victim, which is why stealing those devices is still profitable enough.
Yep, I always see "is this text legit?" posts with clear phishing URLs in iOS help groups on Facebook, posted by people who had their iPhones stolen and think it's Apple Support attempting to get it back.
Yes these often end up in Eastern Europe where the carriers don't really care about that stuff. And most people can't pay full price for top end phones so there's much more market for this stuff.
Even on legit corporations with tens of thousands of iPhones, Apple still gives you a lot of hassle if you want to get one unlocked. Just so this won't be used as a loophole.
It still limits the market where they can be sold, because even there the customer doesn't actually want a stolen device. What if that country starts blocking them, or they want to travel anywhere that does? They could even get arrested.
It also requires the thieves to have a network to transport them there, vs. individual petty thieves who would otherwise be selling them locally.
> Stolen Apple devices are still usable for parts (which is why parts pairing is not always a bad thing)
Parts pairing is still a scam. They could check the part against a stolen device list without refusing to pair with parts from third party OEMs or first party non-stolen parts from other regional markets.
At first I used to tell them (the way you would when someone goes around with their backpack wide open) but people were usually like 'mind your own business' so yeah. Better to let them find out the hard way then.
There are vulnerabilities. Some years ago when this was a new feature I got an android phone to use for development for someone. I just generated a new google account on it and promptly forgot the new email and pass.
Time to return it: surprise, it wanted the previous account to log in after a factory reset. I ended up keeping it and paying for it.
A few months later, after a weekend of googling, I found instructions on how to bypass it by using some vulnerability in the browser invoked in the initial set up, got to a browser window with an address bar, used it to download and install some apk with an older version of some system service, and used that to bypass the lockdown.
Of course, it's probably much harder than that now. But it's doable.
- Don't enable that kind of reset functionality if that kind of antitheft is enabled
- Warn the user about the potential bricked device, and require an additional confirmation
- Don't require a ping to Google servers when you can verify account ownership just via a matched password hash
Antitheft is fine and dandy, but the implementation is bad.
But yes, factory reset on Android phones only wipes the user data partition. Your phone has other things that don't necessarily get reset under a factory reset too, for instance: eSIMs (which is useful that it doesn't, in my experience)
If that phone is based on a Mediatek SoC, I believe a true reset is possible - look up SPFlashTool and read about this useful exploit:
https://tinyhack.com/2021/01/31/dissecting-a-mediatek-bootro...
A lot of buyers of used iPhones and Macbooks find that out the hard way, often because the owners don't even know about that. And actual thieves don't need to care about it as long as they find a buyer who doesn't know about it either.
I guess maybe both are bad. Yesterday I tried to configure a friend’s wifi router after the speed was suspiciously slow. It forced me to ask them for their Spectrum login info (the same info they use to pay the bills, not the wifi info) which nobody remembered and I gave up. Apparently this is required according to https://www.reddit.com/r/Spectrum/s/3sLnHuWgEF
So if we’re badmouthing companies that lock physical functionality behind a cloud, add Spectrum. Not that you’ll have much choice if they’re the only provider, but still.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. What if you have someone house sitting? You really need to download the Bosch app to their phone just to use the same dishwashing routine that you usually do? Blah.
Any alternatives to Bosch that don’t do this?
The reason they do all of this is exactly because of the scenario you ran into: people are always forgetting their logins -- and back when modems/routers didn't have remote provisioning, they spent a lot of time and money sending technicians out to physically reset people's equipment.
I can’t think of a better way to offer the functionality in a way that works for so many customer segments.
It's a European model ("SMV4HAX48E", I'm in EMEA) so it might differ by markets.
For Costco it's 90 days for a major appliance, you don't have to justify yourself as to why. Some stores have terrible return policies, some have good enough policies.
I never got the "no need for wifi" in written form.
So with Bosch, see if you can find a German address/feedback form. Don't worry, they'll understand English.
1. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/problem-with-a-product-or-...
I suspect the company would just respond “the dishwasher is working fine the owner just refuses to enable features as per the manual”.
In 10 years that appliance may not connect to your wifi if the scheme has changed e.g. 2.4Ghz is dropped or something.
I read Australia<snip>Major Problem, and I immediately had the Koxbox track pop into my head. Naturally, it's easiest to find it on YT[0]. I never did take the time to look up where the sample came from, not what the full audio would say. I just assumed that Australians dutifully ignored it when heard as much as 'murikans ignored the FBI warnings at the head of VHS tapes--later DVDs.
[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh7IW3Or590
</absoluteTotalTangent>
On some of their ovens there is a secret key sequence (like game cheat) to get the buttons working again. Every 6 months you need to do this otherwise pay for a service call to do this. Or have a defunct oven.
But it is not public info they have released (but had been leaked on YT)
So they have software with a bug and a workaround they won't tell you about. Ideally they should recall these ovens and pay for a replacement install.
> Every 6 months you need to do this otherwise pay for a service call to do this.
I don't hear about Americans with Bosch appliances very often, but every time I've heard (I suppose until today) it was a very negative review. Maybe the American versions are different, or perhaps I've just run across a few dissatisfied people randomly.
It might be something simpler
This is actually pretty low on the asshole scale.
Consider: dishwashing-as-a-service subscription model. You get the dishwasher chemicals in the post - the dishwasher automatically requests the next lot when it feels like it - and there's cover for repairs; for this you can either pay a regular fee or make in-app purchases of WashCoin, which you then spend when you need to wash the dishes. Maybe add a gacha mode to the app to win bonus wash / rinse / self-clean cycles.
We’re talking about 50 cents of part savings on a $3000+ appliance here.
Replaced them myself easily, but most people will end up having to call for service and end up replacing the entire board for hundreds of dollars minimum.
1. They're cheaper than mechanical buttons.
2. They're more space-efficient inside of the product.
3. They are easy to waterproof.
4. They have no wear-out mechanism.My guess is that I associate them with lag because any control interface that cut corners on buttons probably cut corners on everything else, too.
Capacitive buttons suck, but they are no worse in dishwashers than in any other appliance, in my usage at least
> you cannot use all the functions without creating an account on their website and have them run those functions for you.
Which functions?
This is a really confusing post without knowing what those functions are.
I used it for a few weeks without ever even trying to set up WiFi and everything was fine.
Then I found at that when you set up an LG washer for WiFi you can get reports in the app of water and energy use. I'd actually like that, so decided to give it WiFi access.
I then found out that the WM3400CW does in fact not have WiFi. I think it might be the only current LG washing machine that does not have WiFi.
I suspect that Consumer Reports got confused because it does have LG's "Smart Diagnosis" feature, which gives you diagnostic reports in the LG app.
The way "Smart Diagnosis" in the app works with the WM3400CW is that the washing machine sends the data to the app acoustically. Press the button sequence to start a diagnosis on the washing machine and it sounds very similar to an old analog modem. The app listens to that with your phone's microphone.
Those pieces of data are combined with others, to form a full picture. This device doesn't need to collect it all itself.
Survellance of private citizens is arguably the foundation of the very dangerous problems in societies around the world, taking away freedom, health, peace, and for most, prosperity. When do you stop it?
If someone is close enough to your home to listen to your washing machine (or more likely, inside) they can probably hear/see you more directly.
I did! Thanks.
Ad if someone is bugging my home I think the data transfer from my dishwasher is quite literally the least of my worries.
Yeah, being able to record sounds that the washer makes would probably also enable you to analyze things people say and extract much more information than 'how many people live there' and 'are they home or not'.
But fortunately for us, you need to actually press a physical button to make the machine sing the diagnostics..
Doubling or tripling the amount of data sent would be negligible over a wire, but an audio protocol won't be as snappy. Then there's the matter of trust/decryption. How are those keys being kept safe? What happens if I lose access?
Having to go through their site and their auth means they ultimately control the appliance I paid full price for.
If there is a microcontroller and a beeper in there anyway, at only the extra cost of internal memory? Instead of a modem-type modulation and a speaker, make use of the bare minimum piezo beepers and send something that is universally understood? All of that without FCC, no extra hardware cost, no backchannel und thus little security considerations?
Yea - I know. Works much better to upsell "wifi enabled" and I'm happy that the appliances only beep rarely.
A good marketer could give a catchy name to sell the advantages of that system too. Top of my head I can think of "near-fi", but certainly could be done better.
("Sugar, Free Donuts" - The Simpsons)
Spyware and asbestos, free!
LG must have some internal standard for this feature. If they would just publish it and then that could be the standard.
Edit: to the downvotetards, if you worked in actual engineering like I do, then you would understand that this is how most standards naturally materialize. Someone does one thing particularly well, it becomes the standard.
99% of the functionality with 0 annoyance and ~0 security/privacy risks.
Kinda of like a bluetooth X-terminal, but way way simpler. Think tkinter over bluetooth, probably sans canvas.
A bunch of people will say to just use wifi, make the device a Hotspot, and use your web browser. That's not a bad idea, but tiny devices aren't going to run web servers dishing out multi megabits frameworks.
It could be hard to encode JSON messages dynamically for the actual data to show in the web application, but you _can_ use other protocols from a browser too (CBOR is quite popular for this).
Maybe not. I'm using a micro controller with specific peripherals and ADC requirements for a high speed control system. This has less RAM and flash that you can probably get away with for a web server. We'd have to add a bluetooth radio chip, but I hear those go for well under $1. There are all kinds of embedded devices that have few resources but could be expanded with cheap Bluetooth connectivity. I realize this is changing quickly, but there will always be very small devices.
The product I worked on the bluetooth chip was more expensive than the CPU if memory serves me right and we did something similar. But I am not a board designer or procurement expert.
A long time ago I developed a project called "Handbag[0] for Android"[1] based around a similar concept--it targeted the short-lived "Android Open Accessory Protocol" initially over USB & later also over network/WiFi.
(My project notes from the time mentioned a long-term goal of also supporting Bluetooth but that never eventuated...)
Handbag made use of a "generic" Android app for UI display/interaction and an Arduino library that communicated with the app over a binary protocol.
The app would display various UI widgets such as labels/progress bars to display feedback from the accessory and text inputs/buttons to accept input forwarded to the accessory.
While the project did not take the world by storm, I was reminded when digging up these links that at least one person called the concept genius[2]. :)
----
[0] Because it let you "accessorize your Android phone or tablet". :D
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20130205135845/http://handbagdev...
[2] https://www.doctormonk.com/2011/11/handbag-android-and-ardui...
Can we stop putting obligatory (hackable) active network devices everywhere ?
I can buy 128M flash for $2/10k
Back in the days infrared connection was a thing. I remember connecting my Compaq iPAQ PDA to Nokia phone.
Wonder if the modern cellphone cameras are fast enough to act as receiver and if this supported one way communication.
Miele uses flashing LED as some sort of serial communication.
I’d like to see them all have a USB port. If you plug in a thumb drive the appliance should create a directory named with the appliance manufacturer and model and serial number. In that directory it should place a copy of its manual and other documents that normally come with it.
This sounds far, far better to me - and just goes to show it's not necessary for everything to be connected to the Internet...
My LG microwave has this too; it wasn't a selling point for me, but I thought it was a nice compromise by their engineers and product team.
I have a Bosch Series 6 dishwasher here in Australia. It has physical buttons for all the stuff he mentions - Machine Care (self-cleaning), HalfLoad, Eco, and Delay start.
I did connect it to wifi which allows me to ... do the same stuff from their app. It's next to useless in my use pattern of "load the dishwasher, run the dishwasher". Literally all it adds is the ability to more easily set the machine to run later, which I don't care about.
I love Bosch stuff and will continue to buy it, certainly their series 6 and 8 stuff that's made in Germany - great quality and reliable IMHO.
Honestly it seems like there's just been a poor design decision here, to export the full set of controls to an app rather than on the machine, rather than some sort of fundamental sin. It certainly raises questions of what happens if/when they drop support, but another poster below mentions that the app works locally after initial cloud setup. Maybe just avoid this model...
As far as I can tell Electrolux is the only manufacturer selling "dumb" laundry kit in the US these days… which is probably part of why everyone's favorite LG shills (Yale Appliance) does their best to ignore them.
I'm no dishwasher expert and I guess they did their homework but over a period of 10 years, how can be cheaper to remove the local functionality, add a wifi chip, redo the manuals, and pay for the datacenter costs?
Also I seriously doubt the hosting costs are more than a rounding error for a multiple-hundred-dollar appliance.
Ok but...
> then think if they already have that they can save some cents on buttons.
Isn't this a rounding error as well, on a >500$ appliance?
How can we have at the same time dishwashers with no 7-segments display because it's too expensive and other brands with wifi on every model? It cannot be just for costs, there ought to be marketing reasons behind this.
Seems like the "top control" range, which I can't even see in other countries, might be what's presenting the problem to the author.
IDGAF about appliances being dumb or smart, but I agree it's not a great thing if you have to use smart controls. Provide both and we're all good IMHO.
I recently bought a Bosch and regret it for some of the same reasons as this article. I probably should have got the Miele but CR ratings were slightly higher for Bosch, the repair rates in different places were similar, and the cost was slightly less for the Bosch.
I'm ok with networked appliances but think every function should be operable at the minimum level of networking required to implement that function.
So, a specific washing or drying program shouldn't require any networking, so should function without any networking. Checking the status of a cycle on you phone can be done locally through something like Bluetooth, so it should operate with that and no wifi. Remote monitoring requires internet of some sort, so that's fine.
What makes me furious is requiring a phone app to run something like a delicate or rinse-only cycle.
Funny, that is a single physical button on my Siemens dishwasher.
But as I said before - not really something I care about either way.
Strongly recommended, would buy it again - as long as they don't have any insane IoT garbage included.
I love Bosch, all the stuff we have from them works perfectly many years after buying. Similar for Siemens. But for me - AEG, Whirlpool and Electrolux are the crappiest of the crappiest stuff I've experienced, those brands are banned at my home.
But there is the trick - go for highest offline-only range, which is normally in the middle or just above middle of the range. Best value for money. Plus I couldn't care less of some online features, don't need them, hate them, its just a ticking bomb regardless of manufacturer.
Same as recently discussed here Samsung HW-Q990D surround soundbar update bricking the devices for some. Why the heck would I ever want to update surround speakers which work perfectly fine now? Some sort of OCD out of hands? They never add anything important with such updates, and the general risk is not worth doing it. Plus avoiding not-another-stupid-app-in-phone syndrome.
Often the parts you actually care about are the same among most of the products in a range. When looking at Miele dishwashers recently they all had the same core dish washing mechanics, and all you got when moving to the highest end model was some superficial design changes, an app and that the door popped open once it was done.
Have other appliances - well made, sturdy and made to last. I wont say it was the cheapest option but i typically pay for a balance of quality, value and privacy.
I fully agree.
But to be fair, in a other comment someone linked to a website [0] explaining that the app could be used without connection to internet. So in this case perhaps Bosch didn't have as much of a malicious intent as originally thought.
Quote from the link:
However, [..], the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network.
Absolutely bullshit. If you are a dishwasher without any network connectivity, how are you posting comments on the internet, Mr Bosch?
You would really purchase something based on past experience with the company, not caring about looking into the current state of what they are producing?
Absolutely. Companies that make bullshit products very rarely get their act together, so why wouldn't brand loyalty be a thing when one encounters a quality product?
> after all the old models were pulled and this new line of WiFi connected dishwashers replaced them in 2023
That is news to me. If true my next dishwasher is going to be a Hobart from the used restaurant equipment shop up the way. Incidentally I just looked into it and Bosch claims that their HomeConnect enabled dishwashers function just fine with no internet connection, so there is that.
They all use HomeConnect
Bosch and Siemens had a joint venture since like 1960's. Around a decade ago Siemens sold out their BSH part of the company to Bosch completely and Bosch still makes some equipment under that brand. Yet still Siemens exist and is completely independent company.
Such joint ventures were not unlikely events for companies in that space in Europe. Siemens had parts of the company separated more often. Nokia Siemens Networks is kind of big (they ditched the Siemens name a decade ago), Nokia Siemens had briefly been know for cell phones for instance, Fujitsu Siemens did IT Enterprise hardware and software, PDAs and similar (here Fujitsu also took over and ditched Siemens part of the name).
Your buying advice ain't better than the guy's that sold that dishwasher to Jeff.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140923104028/http://www.rttnew...
I have none of these issues. I have a dedicated button for delayed start on the front of the dishwasher. Dedicated "machine care" button. Not sure what the "rinse cycle" is, so I don't know if it has it, but there's a special rinsing-related button on the front that does something that prolongs the cycle. It also has a dedicated "half load" button. It has buttons for every "useful" cycle, like "eco" which is automatically selected when I turn it on. It's also able to go to a menu of sorts where I can configure water hardness, the quantity of rinsing liquid I want (separately from the hardness setting) and some other things I forgot.
The machine was bought new a little less than two years ago and does have the wifi and bluetooth and whatnot. It's also the only appliance I know which supports 5 GHz wifi. The manual also tries to get you to install the app, but it's not needed.
Where do you live? Pretty sure that in the EU they’d have to take it back, for any reason, if it’s not been 14 days yet. Though the no packaging could pose an issue, yeah.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297
This comment has a link to [0], explaining, in plain text:
However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network.
What does my offline dishwasher need a long-lived authorization key for?
Hardware offline UX gives me hope that my data would not be sold or that I wouldn’t have to pay for an extra subscription or watch ads. Perhaps it’s correlation.
Still, “no cloud” is a step in the right direction; I’ll take it.
> Another third option is somebody has reverse engineered this protocol and built HCPY, a Home Connect Python library.
> But here's the problem: I already spent like four hours getting this dishwasher installed in my kitchen. I don't want to spend another four hours configuring my own web UI for it—which still requires at least a one-time connection through Home Connect!—and maintaining that as a service on my local network, relying on an unauthorized third party library using reverse-engineering to get at the private dishwasher API!
We've all been there. It works, until the shareholders decide differently, and you can no longer use your dishwasher without connecting / agreeing to the terms.
My primary issue with requiring the use of an app is that apps are a pain in the ass. Allow the use of an app as an option, sure, but the appliances should be able to be fully used with the controls on the appliance itself as well. Requiring the use of an app is a dealbreaker for me, but for usability reasons more than security reasons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausger%C3%A4te#Appliance_...
Bosch, in particular, is highly regarded. They also have a wide range. I bought an 800 series 2-3 years ago. I went online to see if anything had changed. You still find the same options: front controls, top controls, different finishes, etc. You can still absolutely buy a dishwasher with manual controls. They're excellent products.
Now my model seems to be before Wifi was added although I did buy an LG washer and dryer that has Wifi, which I did actually try and set up and failed. The code and stack in these things is truly awful. AFAICT I couldn't get it to work because my home network is segmented with 2 Wifi access points. Each of them broadcasts my Wifi network on the same SSID with the same credentials so devices use whichever one has the best signal. It doesn't always move routers so it's not as good as, say, a Ubiquiti network, but it's good enough.
Anyway, the washer/dryer listed my Wifi network 3 times and failed to connect to it for reasons I never established. The error message was a generic "authorization failed". I think it might've had something to do with DHCP. Possibly my address range or DNS servers. Weirdly, it would connect via a phone hotspot just fine. In the end I gave up.
But the point is that the washer/dryer work just fine without Wifi and although I don't have a Wifi-enabled Bosch dishwasher, I very much suspect they do too. Your comment says "it needs to use their website for some functions". What functions, exactly? Would that be notifications for when a load is done? If so, that makes perfect sense. But I bet the dishwasher worked just fine without Wifi.
Requisite archive.ph link: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash...
I like that they've been quiet and reliable, the reliability affirmed by the repair person that replaced the pump.
They should all get hit with the open box problem from the returns.
And Consumer Reports (which I am a "member") needs to call them out and hard for this.
If taking a stand means sacrificing another 2-4 hours (and wrangling that dumb dishwasher back into the minivan, probably with some water spilling out this time, causing more pain since it'll cause minivan issues lol), I don't know if I have the time for it.
That also assumes I can find a suitable replacement unit (and wrangle it, and install it) without seriously disrupting the dish-handling routine in the house for another day or three!
Sadly, that means Bosch wins this time. But if I never buy another Bosch device again (I have one of their water heaters, and a fancy ear thermometer that I rather liked...), maybe they will lose in the long run.
Plus, now I have a long-term project to hack my dishwasher.
If it can get a good number of views, maybe it can at least generate enough impact to cut off a few hundred units of sales. That won't make a massive impact, but it's better than nothing.
If Bosch allowed me to update the firmware of my unit to not lock out features, I'd maybe consider doing that locally over an ad-hoc connection. Wish they would've just included Zigbee, Z-Wave, or Matter instead.
I mean, we all know what people say they want and what they'll do when/if they buy something may be two totally different things.
And: creating a dishwasher (or $appliance) that does its actual job good enough to be worth buying isn't something that can be hacked up in a weekend or two.
Edit to add: maybe - as Bosch pretty much has figured out how to make good diswhasheres - it'd be easier and more approachable to hack, rip out, replace the control electronics. Chances are this is going to work on more model than the one...
It's probably also true that high turnover of goods across brands due to early replacement allows for slimmer margins and higher yields, and hence lower cost of purchase. So on the other extreme, make things break more often and sell them cheaper and more often, which seems to be the status quo.
The economic problem to solve, then, is how to encourage brands to increase the durability of their goods. There are some review publications that perform stress-testing, but few keep metrics on long-term durability in a real-world setting. At a minimum, I check consumer review sites before I buy just to avoid the worst brands, and there you do see some people coming back after a few years to leave a warning to other people. And perhaps this kind of feedback has some effect.
Hopefully people start prizing 'dumb' products, and start leaving bad reviews on products that rely on an internet connection, when they're left stranded after the connection drops out.
If there was any influencer I'd want to know that from it's Louis Rossmann.
Jeff's using his internet fame to reach far more people. I previously thought that Bosch were a good brand (only had a blender and a temperature controlled kettle from them though), but now will avoid them.
Sure it would be nice, but just like all things, not to be pessimistic or fatalistic—the HN rejection of something doesn't practically matter to most companies. I mean, why is it is that Steve Bannon is the loudest voice against technofeudalism today? Why can't we get louder and get other people listening?
On the dishwasher, they had a hard time routing the hoses properly, so the unit was sticking out something like 3 cm from under the furniture. I had to redo it myself.
On the washing machine, they routed one of the pipes with too narrow an angle, so that the water wouldn't come out. Fortunately, to the point of this post, the machine was "smart" enough to figure this out and complain about it (via a code on its display).
It's free to file an issue, and in most cases you'll get a direct response. The issue here is product fails to perform as expected, and resolution is that the manufacturer remove the unit at their cost and give you a full refund.
Arranging an alternative purchase is your issue.
And contact your local news media as well. They love stories, particularly if there's existing footage they can air. VNRs (video news releases), the original "fake news" became a hot item in the 1990s Because Reasons. And you've already got the footage and audio.
Maybe someone who is skillful enough to be able to DIY a micro-controller will also think about these issues and deal with them too? Or is that too hard to imagine?
That is not what the post to which you replied said nor implied. Instead, it reads thusly:
Dishwasher electronics are subject to elevated heat and
humidity levels. A DIY solution will be extremely
unreliable. An amateurish job on the power electronics can
be a fire hazard and will void any insurance policy if they
find out what you did.
> Maybe someone who is skillful enough to be able to DIY a micro-controller will also think about these issues and deal with them too?
Maybe all people who attempt such things are not aware of the concerns raised?
Safety third.
That sounds draconian, do you have any examples of home insurance policies that do this? Is this common in reality?
I suspect you're going to sink a whole lot more time over the unsatisfactory lifetime of the dishwasher. It sounds like the sunk-cost fallacy.
>Plus, now I have a long-term project to hack my dishwasher.
So you'd rather waste more time, probably days or weeks, on a hack where Bosch can change implementation anytime, than return it?
That's a bit of a sunken-cost fallacy.
Here is a device that is going to be used every day for the coming 5 to 10 years, with a least 3 useful functions that cannot be accessed, and it's going to annoy you every time you use it.
Some devices simply have to work without friction, and that is worth spending home maintenance time on (and our hard-earned cash). Dishwashers, washing machines, printers..
Life is too short to waste time and energy on those, and I would argue that the energy, time, friction and annoyance you are probably going to encounter on the lifetime of that device is probably more than the 6 extra hours that would have been spent returning this unit.
Just my 2c, from the sideline, not walking in your shoes.
But especially in such a case, I still believe that the general point stands. If time and energy is tight, you cannot afford to have friction points due to the appliances you use daily, because the friction they cause is a perpetual reoccurrence that is really energy draining.
I understand that time is short and budgets can be tight, but on such things, put the effort and the money in to make sure they work the first time around, and to make sure they stay out of our way.
Life is too short to be the slave of the malfunctioning devices around us, and it's only once the re-occurring low-level friction points are gone that we generally realize how draining they can be in everyday life.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43469297
It's linking to a website with the following explanation:
However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network.That only works if other options don't have these requirements.
Having recently bought new appliances, they almost all have some features gated behind "the cloud".
Even many exhaust fans (that go above your stove) have wifi now!
Try buy a TV without smart features. You can, but then you got to buy one intended for hotels and pay the market price for products intended for that market.
Easy. Just buy a dumb monitor. Why do you even need the TV tuner?
Also the marginal cost of an app is basically $0, whereas the marginal cost of hardware like buttons and 7-segment displays is >$0, so it's tempting (if you expect to sell a lot of dishwashers) to replace hardware with an app.
But if you have the idea you want internet-connected TV but somehow 'not smart' (not even understanding what it means) but without ads then yeah good luck, they are baked into OS even if manufacturer didn't want them. And there is no such manufacturer I know of.
Although, I have cheap 75" TCL one and the only ads I see in past 2 years are those youtube itself inserts, while using all default apps that came with it (plus VLC for more video formats and generally better player). What other ads areas are there?
Since I have a tiny bit of reach online, I figured I'd use it FWIW to maybe impact Bosch's sales by like 0.000001%. Because that's better than 0.000000001% :)
Our current dishwasher is a GE and it does a great job washing dishes, but has developed a few quirks that leads me to believe we are living on borrowed time.
I did try all of the configuration possibilities with regard to DHCP:
dhcp-option=option:ntp-server,132.163.96.1
dhcp-option=option:time-offset,0xFFFF8F80 #(Standard time)
#dhcp-option=option:time-offset,0xFFFF9D90 #(Daylight time)
dhcp-option=option:posix-timezone,'PST8PDT7,M3.2.0/02:00,M11.1.0/02:00'
I've never actually found any IoT device that recognizes or correctly uses these.
I've no idea if the newer GE products are still this bad, but I'll be shopping for "dumb" appliances on the next appliance refresh cycle.
I know it would be super easy to return or exchange at Costco. But my spouse likes it, I am pretty certain that any replacement unit is going to have the exact same issue, and it was a pretty good price.
I'm sorry for being a bad consumer!
> I don't think we should let vendors get away with this stuff.
But he _did_ let the vendor get away with it. That’s exactly what he did. He even spent a significant part of the article anticipating the push back by trying to reason why in his case he felt justified in doing so (because he’s busy, because he couldn’t wait a few days hand washing, because of family constraints), but presumably.. you shouldn’t?
So I don’t get it. It’s precisely the “do as I say, not as I do” that we have this problem. There is an immediate benefit to the saying part, on social media, the social signalling, etc (especially immediate for a YouTuber), but not so much for the doing part.
And I say that as largely a supporter, Jeff Geerling seems to be one of the good guys. Which I guess is why we are where we are?
So here's the thing. It would be unfairly cynical to suggest that Jeff is only doing this to further his own content as a content creator. I think most would agree that Jeff is also frustrated by this and wants to push back. And as someone with influence any impact he can make is undoubtedly a good thing. It's even easier to say nothing at all.
But it is also hard to separate out to what degree the motivation to put in the effort to write an article, produce and edit a video stems from the desire for content and what stems for the desire for real change. It is somewhat telling that he had the time and motivation to produce the video (which is also a ton of work), but not to return the dishwasher?
Real advocacy has to go beyond influencers promoting causes that already align with their target audience. We have to go beyond just saying things on social media in the belief that that is somehow sufficient to "do our bit". Otherwise we can kid ourselves that we're doing good, when are we really, really? Real advocacy requires real change, and that's the hard bit.
I think there may even be an argument that a stance like this can do more damage than good. It may actually normalize the view that it's sufficient to promote on social media but ultimately take no action. There's a danger of furthering a sense of complacency where we want to do the right thing, but where sufficiency in "the right thing" has been normalized down to a grumble and a tweet rather than to actually take real action at any real personal cost.
Alternatively put, if everyone else doesn't do the hard bit, why should I?
Consider real leadership that makes the hard choices and leads by example. You see a friend step up against something at cost to them, and it's that what motivates you to join them. Leading by example is what motivates people.
I think it would have been so much more effective if Jeff returned the dishwasher. People see that personal cost and it _means something_. Otherwise why bother? I mean, that's what Jeff does, right?
But back to the main theme of the article: hell to the no was my initial attitude, and I went out of my way to make sure my appliances were as simple as possible. Still, three out of the five were "wifi-enabled" and promised a world of app-enhanced wonders. Needless to say, none of these ever even got anywhere near being set up, and I think I am lucky, all the normal, expected appliance features work without requiring these extras.
The idea of remotely preheating my oven while I am not home still makes me shudder.
- https://blog.puls.com/top-appliance-brands-2020-guide
- https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4039866/National%20Appliance%...
- https://blog.yaleappliance.com/is-consumer-reports-accurate-...
Also: please do your own homework, you should be able to find all this once pointed in the right direction.
Thanks for the links though.
I have an LG soundbar never set up, or connected to any wifi.
and when my phone gets near it, it asks to connect to an airplay device.
I think that might be a fatal flaw to even getting a wifi enabled device - maybe someone in the adjacent apartment can do the initial setup if you didn't.
hopefully these devices have a physical component to initial setup, and are not succeptible to denial-of-service type attacks.
The catch is: I don't have any Samsung TV in my home. It's the neighbours TV. It happened even when my Bluetooth was disabled, somehow the phone still reached the TV wirelessly.
Thank God there's a setting to turn this "feature" off.
- https://blog.puls.com/top-appliance-brands-2020-guide
- https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4039866/National%20Appliance%...
- https://blog.yaleappliance.com/is-consumer-reports-accurate-...
Also: please do your own homework, you should be able to find all this once pointed in the right direction.
Jeff shows manual explicitly saying when you need an app, so this could have been avoided.
Downloading the manual may have helped Jeff dodge this product.
Web search has become a nightmare for consumer purchase research - it's all affiliate driven. Even the old traditional trusted names are just phoning it in with affiliate content churn.
Electric ovens can be terrifying when they fail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrL_9K7rCz8
Mine was throwing a lot more sparks than in this video. It sounded like fireworks were going off in my kitchen.
In any case, generating lots of heat inside the oven is probably safer than doing it outside it.
- https://blog.puls.com/top-appliance-brands-2020-guide
- https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4039866/National%20Appliance%...
- https://blog.yaleappliance.com/is-consumer-reports-accurate-...
Also: please do your own homework, you should be able to find all this once pointed in the right direction.
I'm joining the others in saying I don't know where to find this info...
- https://blog.puls.com/top-appliance-brands-2020-guide
- https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4039866/National%20Appliance%...
- https://blog.yaleappliance.com/is-consumer-reports-accurate-...
Also: please do your own homework, you should be able to find all this once pointed in the right direction.
I like the idea of using industry literature, but I think consumer reviews have value too. Much smaller purchase, but I was considering a new travel thermos and all the professional review were praising it. As soon as I pulled up some consumer reviews though, it was almost universal that after washing it for the first time, it smelled of garlic and soy sauce. Apparently this issue was around for at least three years (into today).
Not sure why that got passed over by all the professionals (maybe a lack of time spent with the product), but I was glad I read the consumer reviews as well.
But I do agree that that won't cover everything. Issues that need repair are a big concern but so is usability when the damned things are working "properly".
>
> But I spent four hours installing this thing built into my kitchen.
I sympathize with the author and what Bosch is doing here is ridiculous and I am fully against it.
But, they're not going to care about your complaints. Returning it and hitting them in the pocketbook is really the only way consumers have to send messages that companies hear.
It's a pain, but if you truly care about this, you, sadly, have to put in extra effort to fight back.
See how Bosch likes the power of web ads.
The manual didn't include instructions for turning off Bluetooth, and when I called Samsung they said you in fact can't turn it off. I could simply pull the antenna, I guess, but it seems to be integrated with the WiFi so then I couldn't watch any streaming.
I ended up changing the BT device name to "STOP USING THIS ONE" but apparently nobody reads it because I still get the connection requests daily.
[1] <https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/03/roku-says-unpopular-...>
Then you could pick an improbable name and run a rather spicy honeypot for a while,, until there's no more activity. Then it'd be safe to turn it off and bring the real device online.
I wonder if there's a market for special panels that block sound and common wifi/bluetooth bands...
> So most evenings I get three or four screencast requests from neighbors' phones that I have to deny. That's annoying enough but it also stops whatever I'm watching in the process.
I'd be tempted to call support every single time, and feign that I simply can't understand why their product that I purchased keeps breaking...
What happens if you accept it? Do you just see your neighbors screen? This sounds like something terrifying enough to convince your neighbors to pay attention.
Because this is class action level unbelievable.
[0]: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicalized_%28Doctorow_book%2...
What makes it worse is that these cloud connections also tend to be insecure and unreliable or both. I've seen multiple vendors (including Miele) make unencrypted connections to their cloud. (Try blocking port 80 outgoing on your firewalls.)
I've also set up a bit of monitoring for a few appliance manufacturer's clouds - these cloud services have outages all the damn time. To an extent it makes sense given that nobody is explicitly paying for them. On the other hand it's a terrible omen for the longevity of such services. (I can't wait to buy an expired appliance manufacturer's domain.)
I can't imagine a solution to this mess either besides legislation, like forcing some open access at least on EOL.
The goal is that device companies will want to get rid of cost of developing cloud software, and effectively outsource it to Apple, Google, etc.
You will miss out on a few "advanced" features, but it washes dishes really well. I read the manual before I bought it, and I got the performance I expected. I would have preferred to have access to a rinse cycle and a cleaning mode, but I don't need them. It definitely gets my dishes much cleaner than the old failing one I replaced, and I have no complaints so far about its performance.
A few more notes while I'm here:
Yes, partially unscrew the front legs with a wrench before you put it in place. They are too tight. Partially adjust the rear leg before you put it in too. The diagram is confusing and may not adjust the leg in the direction you think it will. I wonder if this is what happened to Jeff.
The dishwasher apparently will refuse to connect to a Wifi network without a password. For mostly philosophical reasons I don't want to add a password to my network, and this is part of the reason I haven't connected it.
Note that the Costco version (at least in my area) is a subtly different model that does not include the automatic door opening "Auto Air" feature. Since this is one of the best features of this model, you should not buy it from Costco unless you verify it comes with this.
The "touchless" buttons are annoying. It frequently beeps and comes to life when I'm just trying to open the door. The interface as a whole isn't great, and I sometimes worry it's not set correctly. But once you figure it out, it will wash your dishes quietly and effectively.
Thanks. Some of the other comments are implying that they’re missing something important without WiFi but nobody seems to want to explain what’s missing.
Can you explain what features are missing without the WiFi connection?
Available cycles from the buttons: Heavy, Auto, Normal, Speed 60, Favorite
Available options from the buttons: Auto Air, Sanitize
Additional cycles from the app: Rinse, Machine Care
Additional options from the app: Halfload, Eco, Delay
I believe that with the app you can set one of the additional cycles to be the "Favorite" button, but I haven't tried this.
I live in a very rural area with poor cell phone coverage. I'm happy to provide a WiFi signal for the lost people who are in front of my house trying to figure out why their GPS has led them here. We get a few each year, because Google Maps shows the road past my house going through while in reality it's closed in winter.
I also like it that I don't need to play the "what's the password" game with houseguests. I like that I don't need to input passwords to screenless devices using clumsy and slow input methods. I like the idea that the default should be sharing what you can afford to share rather than keeping everything private by except by special arrangement.
More generally, I don't think that closed networks substantially improve security and I don't like the push to require them. It's great to have the option to keep people off of your network through passwords or MAC filtering, but I don't like it being the default. I don't like technology that tries to enforce its own opinion about social norms.
Contrary to the other poster, it's not laziness. At this point it's frequently more difficult to host an open network than a password protected one. It might not be a good idea, but it's a conscious choice.
If your claiming your philosophical stance is setting passwords doesn’t provide security, by your own reasoning in your case that’s just a matter of practicality. There is no philosophical argument.
> More generally, I don't think that closed networks substantially improve security and I don't like the push to require them.
I mean that’s just your opinion, not a philosophical stance, and it happens to be a empirically demonstrably false one.
> I don't like technology that tries to enforce its own opinion about social norms.
This statement is so vague it’s practically useless. It can just be selectively applied against anything you don’t like. All technology is opinionated. From the layout of your keyboard to this site, everything is shaped by and shapes social norms. It would also be an opinionated technology if it decided not to ask you to set a password by default. You might as well have said I don’t like WiFi passwords because I don’t like WiFi passwords and it would’ve carried the exact same message.
Isn't that exactly what a philosophical stance is? Someone's personal opinion, whether it be right or wrong (in your book). Honestly, I find your response quite rude compared to the general tone of responses on this site.
> I don't think that closed networks substantially improve security and I don't like the push to require them.
You know what, you're right this is a philosophical stance, as dumb as a stance I might think it to be. My actual issue with his "philosophy" is that he makes a broad generalization when the statement really just applies to his unique use case. I didn't consider it to be a philosophical stance because I didn't think he seriously meant it as a systematic approach for the entire world but honestly re-reading what he wrote I think he does actually.
Honestly I take bigger issue with what he believes is a stance against opiniated technology but all technology is inherently opiniated his opinions are just different.
[0] https://trmm.net/homeconnect/ [1] https://github.com/hcpy2-0/hcpy
From link [0]:
However, perhaps inline with the German attitudes towards privacy, the BSH "HomeConnect" appliances have a no-cloud mode built into their app without any hacks required to disconnect them from the internet. They do require a one-time connection to perform key exchange of a long-live authorization key, but from then on the appliances can be operated entirely disconnected from the network.> Another third option is somebody has reverse engineered this protocol and built HCPY, a Home Connect Python library.
> But here's the problem: I already spent like four hours getting this dishwasher installed in my kitchen. I don't want to spend another four hours configuring my own web UI for it—which still requires at least a one-time connection through Home Connect!—and maintaining that as a service on my local network, relying on an unauthorized third party library using reverse-engineering to get at the private dishwasher API!
My living room is now furnished with a digital signage monitor and a soundbar.
The price was a touch more than a normal TV of a similar size, and there was not much variety (I had to give up on OLED at the size I wanted for example), but I just have such a hatred for the constant nagging for Wi-Fi and terms of use acceptance nags my parents' new TV had.
If your product is cheaper because you sell my data to the highest bidder, just let me outbid them please.
If this trend continues, we will have more and more people having bricked appliances as badly designed web services are inevitably sunset, as mobile apps without updates become incompatible with new versions of their phone OS and get delisted from App Stores by the manufactures. Or then, Wi-Fi standards will change, and the appliance won't be able to connect to the network unless you keep an obsolete and by then insecure hotspot just to serve it.
Given that, I wonder if there isn't going to be a business opportunity for creating after-market appliance controllers. Just a board that you can use to replace the one that came with your appliance, but without any factory-controlled web-service nonsense.
This is already a thing for split air-conditioner units. In fact, I even saved one with such an aftermarket board.
A bonus is that high power MOSFETs have a tendency to crap out and relays have a limited lifetime of a given number of switches guaranteeing that eventually youll need to throw out your whole, otherwise basically flawless devices due to dead electronics.
We see the same in the air quality monitoring industry, where more and more manufacturers lockdown their devices and make them cloud only operable. We at AirGradient are open source hardware (and can run completely local) and we are very successful with it. So things like this are actually opening up the market for new entrants or existing companies to highlight the benefits of non-cloud models for the consumers.
So I do hope that these kind of post like from Jeff Geerling create more awareness also among the normal consumers to change their buying behavior and bulk that trend.
The door hinges were giving way, the door gasket had started to get iffy (not quite leaking yet, but it needs a new one), the top rack doesn't go in and out easily anymore...
All those parts aren't even made to be fixable anymore. At least if it's a pump or control board, those are relatively swappable. The rail system seems to be integrated into the sidewall!
On our old fridge (only like 12 years old), we lived for 6 years with a broken drawer because the slide for it is literally integrated into the inside wall... not repairable at all, without an entire new shell.
If we had a 30 year old device, it would probably all be repairable. Sadly, there seem to be very few consumer options (and nowadays even 'professional' options) that are made with longevity as a feature target.
* The clothes dryer only needed a new circuit board that cost half of a replacement.
* The microwave only needed a new magnetron that cost the price of a new microwave oven. - Some would find this insane, but none of the new microwaves matched the kitchen decor and replacing everything to make it match the latest fad would have been truly insane.
* The refrigerator’s gasket needed to be pushed back into its groove when it started to come loose.
As for your dish washing machine, we had problems with our first one and heard from a repair guy that you really need to rinse the dishes before putting them into it. Ever since doing that, we have had zero problems with our machine. Maybe that might aid your new one’s longevity.
Needing to rinse used to be the norm, but if one buys a dishwasher in the 2020s that won't work without rinsing in advance, one is getting scammed out of their money and time by lazy manufacturers, IMO.
But in your case it sounds like a replacement was long overdue anyway. Better be careful with appliances that use water.
I live in an apartment building with a shared laundry room (but everyone has their own washing machines) in the basement.
Last month a neighbor's old washing machine - with many pre-existing issues - broke down. The dampeners for the drum failed, and once it started spinning, it just "walked" away, ripping the tap out of the wall.
The water flooded the entire basement a foot deep, including the storage units and underground parking. Took a full day before you could set foot in it again, a whole month before everything was truly dry again, and I lost a lot of things (including lots of old tech).
I've spent more than the cost of a laundry machine on interior paint for my walls.
- Product not as advertised, because it failed to disclose the need for a smart phone model supported by their app, and WiFi, and an internet connection, and etc.
- Product is not ADA(?) compliant, because all that extra complexity makes using it too difficult for some disabled people.
- Product is in violation of data security regulations of some US States, or countries, or the EU, because ...
And in theory, any Cory Doctorow fan with the spare time could set up a web site to name & shame all the consumer products which had these "involuntary cloud" features, helping people avoid them.
-edit- It's currently preeeeeeeetty sparse. Hopefully it (or something like it) catches on in the future.
Employers, state and local governments, businesses open to the public, commercial facilities, transportation providers, etc, are required to procure ADA compliant appliances where applicable.
This one would be fine as a 'dumb' dishwasher, but I wouldn't have paid $900 for a $400 dishwasher if I'd known all the nicer features (like Eco mode or self-cleaning) require an app.
It's quite easy to find yourself having non-zero boot times for some unfortunate reasons. At least in my org, the software as a whole is RAM/ROM constrained rather than speed constrained. Even when you're this close to bare metal, devs tend to write over-abstracted code riddled with inefficiencies. And of course most people don't profile the application at all. This is a symptom of the software being under-tested imo. I have personally written tooling to integration test the whole application for a few appliances, and for one appliance initializing the application 56 times took over 1 second. On a modern machine it should take milliseconds. After profiling I found that 99%+ of our time was spent servicing a subscription tied to all events, that really only needed to subscribe to just one or two.
Along with that there are other reasons for long apparent boot up times:
- Waiting for other boards to connect and talk to each other. Your UI can't do anything until it knows the state from the main control.
- Randomized delays to prevent current surges after a blackout. You'll see this on ACs or other appliances that might have hundreds of identical units in a building.
- Waiting for flash memory to be readable
All of this adds up to seconds of boot time. Yet ultimately none of this matters to the business people because we're an appliance company, NOT a software company. Our software is mostly incidental to having a functioning product, and boot times could go way higher without the business being worried. Though recently yes, we have entered the data market hence the push for smart features. Word to the wise, avoid any appliance with Android in it if you don't like the idea of forced connected features!
I unfortunately don't have any solutions to most of the problems presented in the article. All I can do is continue to try writing bullet-proof software and push back against forced connected features.
Ironically what you're looking for can be found in the lowest end, and the highest end products. Low end means low features, so you can get away with just a knob and maybe a few LEDs. Look at Hotpoint (GE's low end brand) or a low end LG washer [0].
High end usually forgoes a flashy UI as well since it's about the style and being a centerpiece.
The mid end is where it's weird because features justify the extra cost. In order to make those available you need to have an LCD screen and more buttons.
In all these categories you'll run into software though. It's cheaper than a electro-mechanical solution. We only fall back to the old ways when required for safety/compliance.
Really spartan and silent. A knob and two buttons, or a couple of buttons and a led display. The price is also not too bad, around €750.
There is a market for old Miele washing machines. If they get defect, it’s usually shock absorbers or other easily repairable parts. Once repaired they last long. Of course with the higher electricity & water consumption.
Dishwashers… My father in law had rust issue with their dish rack of their Miele dish washer. The replacement part cost > 50% of a new dish washer. So he went with a a new Miele dish washer. Result: The new dish washer uses less water to save water. How does it work with less water? Doubling the runtime. Doubling the runtime doubles the wear and tear of parts. Assuming still same quality parts, the dish washer’s life time is halved. He should have been better off with replacing the dish rack.
But they last 25 years so they'll save you big bucks in the long run.
Please don’t buy a top loader for the love of your clothing.
I also don't recall it being very expensive. Maybe $900.
So I just live without the extra features.
Don't laugh. Some HP printers refuse to print, after an initial "free trial" of 25 pages, until you register the printer with the HP app.
I was wondering - maybe they have a deal with amazon that says what serial number was sold to who?
You may be forced into:
- "smart" door locks or garage
- wifi connected thermostat
- specific provider for building internet
- various appliances: washer, dryer, fridge, stove, microwave, dishwasher
- "package room provider" with cameras and privacy policy to photo/video of you, your address, your phone number (for access codes)
- and of course the application process...
I'm sure if you called you could still manage to do an old-fashioned style form, but not only is that a huge inconvenience, I'd be very worried that agencies would just ignore it if the property was popular and had good competition.
Surely when all appliances go down this route it will not last long, purely down to the amount of breaches that will inevitably occur. Not to mention the backlash.
LG 48GQ900
BTW I needed to connect it to local network because the remote has no button for changing brightness, so I do that from my PC.
It was eerie to read that, because at ~10 years old my GE Profile dishwasher's logic board died and exhibited all those same behaviours. I followed great advice from techs but then faced the same issue: $400 to get another board, but why gamble?
I purchased a KitchenAid (with front facing, well lit and described buttons) and it has been great, with no WiFi requirement, and I felt the Bosch models were overpriced.
https://deepmind.google/discover/blog/gemini-robotics-brings...
For me the most egregious thing was online account to use my mouse.
Also for dishwashers and washing machines - the eco and other bullshit modes are terrible. Let me waste tad more resources that I will gladly pay for and don't care how greasy the things that I throw in the dishwasher are.
Worst dishwasher I've ever owned. The control panel literally cracked in half in completely ordinary, if not even careful use. Everything about it seem designed to use the cheapest, smallest amount of material.
It was actually the motivator for cancelling my Consumer Reports subscription. It really made me wonder what their incentives really are.
Rtings seems good for now, but who knows how long that will last
I believe they still have a letters column, or failing that, an email address. Would highly suggested the OP contact them and complain how they missed the mark.
(Although it does have the shitty capacitative buttons that I can never tell whether I've pushed or not.)
I inherited an old Maytag dishwasher with the same house that I never got around to replacing. It has like 5-10 cycles...and we only ever use the 1. I have variously thought about replacing it because it is like car engine loud, but it runs a fast cycle and does a decent job and has been bulletproof so far.
Honestly, a lot of these added features feel like weird gimmicks nowadays created by product and marketing teams to differentiate to the consumer shopping based on feature lists and not necessarily to actually add value.
Who's making the workhorse stuff nowadays?
More like ... will never actually need.
Due to this, trying to read reddit recommendations for dishwashers is horrible. People will wax on about how so and so is the best one they've ever owned, then only if you probe a bit it turns out they're using "rinse aid", hand drying half their dishes, running frequent cleaning cycles to get the musty smell out, etc.
And: if you cannot find the manuals readily online, that's another black strike / red flag against the product and vendor.
I don't agree; dishwashers that connect to the Internet should not exist.
At most, a dishwasher's network connectivity should be restricted to the presence of firmware which serves a web UI. Everything should be doable via the web UI, whose commands should ideally be URL-driven, so they can be easily automated with simple requests.
A laser printer doesn't need to connect to the cloud; why does a dishwasher?
Now I just need a box, some motors and actuators and a lot of waterproofing....
Related: Is "Internet of Shit" still a thing?
Anyway, my first thought on reading this was that all this wifi stuff was there anyway for the designers doing build and test and then someone in marketing had come up with the idea that this could also be a consumer feature.
In Europe Bosch has always been the go to quality consumer brand although there are quite a few next tier options such as Miele (which tend to be way more expensive). This is the case with domestic appliances but also with gas central heating boilers. Every year my service engineer says how pleased he is to see my Bosch boiler and how much better they are than other brands.
Honestly I'd have been better with the speed queen and a relay wired into the starter switch.
As for the dishwasher, I rigged up my current one to send me end of cycle alerts by putting a current detector loop around it's power inlet, and alerting when it goes from high to low and stays that way for a period
I still can’t set my oven clock without doing some weird finger kung-fu combo. Why? WHY?? Why can’t it just sync with my phone or, I don’t know, the internet—like literally every other clock on every other device does now?
And don’t even get me started on the range hood. Why can’t I have the light turn on automatically, say, an hour after sundown? Or have the fan kick in when the gas turns on? That would actually be useful! But nope—no timer, no automation. The only feature my Wi-Fi-enabled range hood has is pure, unfiltered disappointment.
Or take my fridge. Why can’t it send me a photo of what’s inside while I’m at the grocery store? Or tell me how often (and when) I open the door every day? I know it’s tracking that data—just show me a copy instead of feeding it straight to Zuck!
Honestly, the features these things come with right now are all pretty much useless. And the worst part? Leaving them connected means someone could just push a kill command one day that bricks my garbage disposal. “Oh, profits are down this quarter? Time to end-of-life that model from 6 months ago!”
And they say EVs will outlast regular cars. On every piece of my home equipment, electronics failed before they developed mechanical issues.
Power electronics, especially capacitors, and high power switching elements don't have a great track record of reliability.
Regular/ICE cars are fully dependant on electronics too. When a board fails, the car stops working. There's really no difference.
The one highlight is that we learned about the brand Speed Queen from the sales person at Lowe's. She talked them up as being the best, but they aren't sold at any big box store. Speed Queen is only sold through mom and pop shops.
When we dug in and did some research, we found that Speed Queen has the best consumer ratings by a wide margin.
They still produce a fixed drum model for the washer, like the type that whirlpool and maytag used to make decades ago. We put up with the whirlpool for a couple of years, but when we moved we got rid of them and bought a fixed drum style Speed Queen (look for the models marketed as "classic clean"). Best consumer appliance I've ever owned. I expect it to last at least another 20 years.
One of the big reasons that I did it is so I'd know when consumables needed to be replaced. The big hope was it would give me a warning when the fridge water filter was full and make buying the exact part easier.
It has failed to do this one thing. But I can get recipes from within the app. I still have no idea what water filter I need and have to try to find the model number.
If you're going to build a cloud setup for appliances, at least make it useful for the end user, eh?
edit: we actually considered a GE washer/dryer for the smart features until I sat down and realized that I was trying to over complicate laundry. We went with a Speed Queen model instead. My dryer now has two knobs and a button to start it.
What's even worse is the planned obsolescence, its such a huge waste of resources. I had a GE DW and fridge from the 1950s until 1995 and they still worked, albeit were a funky lime greenish color. And that DW washed the dishes better than the new replacement. Currently dealing with a 2 year old LG fridge that is dead.
1. https://www.kaercher.com/au/home-garden/pressure-washers/sma...
It works very well but I was horrified when I saw the message saying that "It required an urgent security update" and that it would download it from the cloud.
I feel we went too far.
I can't help but think my solution to this would be, to start hand washing the dishes, out of pure spite.
Product designers get blamed for this kind of thing, but I can all but guarantee the product designer just worked on the how, they didn't decide that your dishwasher needed this feature. We rarely go rogue and create a whole new system that nobody asked for, then convince a bunch of product managers, VPs, and engineers that what they thought was a shitty idea is actually worth doing. Ideas like this get given to us, it's our job to execute on them, just like engineers implementing shitty features to the best of their ability. Product designers are usually the ones who complain about bad user experience, and get told it conflicts with business goals.
There are a few exceptions of course. Where remote access is a major value add. Home security systems, garage doors, deadbolts, etc fall into that cohort but that’s about it so far.
I realize that that’s maybe the problem when the line must go up, but I am pretty sick of companies putting most of their efforts towards solving problems that no one actually has instead of doing a simple thing really well.
I was very skeptical of a WiFi connected dishwasher.
Very quickly, I loved it.
It’s actually REALLY useful to be able to get a ping on my Apple watch that the dishwasher has finished.
Once upon a time I had a dishwasher where the door popped open when it was finished. That was good too.
But with the Bosch one I can do things like mute it (so it keeps washing but more quietly), or make custom programmes (spray harder on the bottom rack because I’ve been baking).
When I moved I bought my own. And then bought a matching smart washer dryer.
I was really really skeptical of internet connected appliances like this. I wouldn’t return to a dumb appliance.
Perhaps this is a shared dishwasher in student house where time is tight (applies to clothes washer). Perhaps you want to fire it when power is cheap. Perhaps you want it to start automatically when you left house. Finally - adjusting settings is easier via phone UI or voice.
It kinda lame so many people on HN, predominantly a startup forum, have so little imagination.
I agree a better labelling should be out there tho. Cloud-free, cloud-enabled, cloud-native, etc.
I don't think this is a lack of imagination. Personally, I would love network-connected appliances that could be controlled and automated over my LAN. What I (and others) object to is the unnecessary round trip through the Internet to the manufacturer's server which will inevitably become the weakest link.
If there's any imagination problem, it's on the manufacturer who can't imagine a "smart" appliance that doesn't involve inserting themselves, via the Internet, in between the user and the appliance and (often) charging a monthly service fee for this misfeature.
We could all run our own mail servers and there’s a good reason we don’t.
I really don't understand why these trash devices are so popular. Is the average person really clueless enough that they'll buy into all this shit just so they can use an app to control their shit? And if so, why is the carrot of extreme convenience enough for people to literally give up control of their hardware to the manufacturer?
I hope this shit get hacked ten ways to Sunday. Fuck these rent-seeking bastards. Hacking is the one true equalizer. Unlicensed bread indeed.
So, I put a magnetic sensor on the door and made a circuit that starts beeping when the door has been closed for an hour.
Simple as that. Door open, machine not in use. Door closed for less than an hour, probably still running. After that, beep until I open the door. No need for anything networked, no subscription, no terms of service, just more beeping.
(Same with the microwave. There's never a reason to leave cooked food in the microwave with the door closed for a long time, so it dings every few minutes until I open the door. My old microwave didn't do this, but my new one does. It's so simple, why can't they all have this?)
That said I'd much rather it be a simple local HomeKit integration instead of cloud only custom app BS.
Most dishwashers will play a tune or something, and I can't see why would I want another digitalized distraction in my life instead. But TBH I can't imagine why I would want to wear another portable digital distraction source on my wrist, so maybe I'm just old fashioned.
> Once upon a time I had a dishwasher where the door popped open when it was finished.
This and everything else does not require network connectivity. Only notification does. Plus maybe remote start (already have that with a "delay" on the panel of mine), some UI for statistics. Gimmicks, if you ask me.
Connectivity in devices would make sense for certain conveniences in a perfect world, where companies can be trusted to behave decently. In practice they will brick (on purpose or accident/hack), ransom it in one way or the other, demand sourcing consumables from them after the fact, sell your privacy who knows where.
Preach. I love my smart devices, but they need to be quiet and dumb on outside, smart on inside. Cars where screens and beeps can be turned off, microwaves without beeps, washers without bops and gyms without forced music.
I think Japan kinda gets it right tho their rice cookers have famously pleasant jingle once it's done cooking.
Oh but why? Everyone around me had an apple watch, I was the odd one out. And I said to my self "no more!!!"
I bought a second-hand apple watch, I deleted all the garbage from it, I got a comfortable bracelet for it. Then I disabled Wifi/Bluetooth/Data. I got an Android phone, so connectivity is limited/shit anyway, but if you kill background processing, alerts, all transmissions, then the battery lasts forever!!!! (36hours tops). Now I am a cool moron like every other moron around me!
The only sound I kept is the 'chimes' (so if I am 'available') I drop and do 10 push-ups. That's the ONLY useful thing about this watch.
For example I got mine because it has a sim in it which means I can leave my phone at home and walk my dogs and dictate voice memos or make calls while I am out.
But if it makes you feel cool that’s great!
That would be me. I like my mechanical watches. But it doesn't make me any more or less cool than majority of people around me with Apple Watches on. Nobody really notices or gives a crap.
If I see someone wearing a Rolex I'm more likely to think "that's reckless" than "that's cool". And if I see someone wearing an Apple Watch - or any other gadget - I think "oh, an Apple Watch" and nothing else, or, at most, I think "I wonder what that gadget is, it's not something I've seen before".
I was once at a conference and there was a (notoriously 'flash' but very boring) guy literally juggling his Punkt phone, clearly desperate for someone to ask him what it was, so that he could tell them how much of a hipster he was.
No-one asked. After about 20 minutes of juggling it he quietly put it back in his bag and took his iPhone out of his pocket.
Yes, smart features can be a great convenience, but they shouldn't come at the expense of basic functionality, and they should only use the cloud when actually required. Very, very rarely are these smart features inherently a cloud feature. Exceptions being things like the stated in the video case of things like cameras/other home security devices.
It is a nice convenience, but it's trivially done with a power metering smart plug (using shelly here) that 100% locally shoves data to home assistant.
Cloud-first hardware is trash, and should be illegal to sell. Cloud-optional is one thing, but it should always be possible to perform 100% of the capabilities of a piece of hardware that you buy, without some bullshit cloud or subscription.
I consider it to be a very "rapey" mindset on the part of these companies. They will get the data they want, or you'll get a worthless pile of plastic and metal that barely counts as a functional device.
As for expensive control boards for the old broken down machines, I found someone on eBay that repaired them and fixed my washing machine for 40. The control board is just a plastic box with cables running to it. Disconnect, take it out, mail it, and install it once you get it back. Fixed.
Unlike the new stuff that's dependent on a cloud service with rapidly changing software which may get shut down or unusable in a few years, mine has been working with the same power and water for the greater than half a century since it was made.
If anyone thinks that'd be interesting and have thoughts/comments/suggestions or just would want to know about it, you can find my email in my profile and I'd love to hear from you!
(New) "dumb" cars are just impossible to find nowadays, unfortunately.
The problem is though, there aren’t many electronic shops left which are able to do component level repair. Almost everybody replaces full modules, as it is much easier.
- Cloud-dependent features for essential appliance functions are undesirable.
- Modern appliances are becoming less durable and harder to repair compared to older models.
- There are valid concerns about privacy and data security with internet-connected home appliances.
- Consumer Reports and similar review sites are not always reliable and trustworthy.
- Simple, locally controlled appliances are preferable for core home appliance functionalities.
- Some smart features, like remote notifications and control, can be genuinely useful and convenient for users in certain situations.
- Smart features might offer specific advantages in shared living spaces or for optimizing energy consumption.
- Developing local-first software for appliances is perceived by some as complex and expensive compared to cloud-based solutions.
- The market will naturally adjust to consumer preferences regarding smart features over time.
- For some users, the effort of returning a product might outweigh the inconvenience of dealing with cloud-dependent features.
- Not all Bosch dishwashers require cloud connectivity, and some models are still considered high quality.
the summary can be found here: https://extraakt.com/extraakts/dishwasher-app-dependency
What he has is a "smart" dishwasher
Does anyone know exactly what the Bosch service sends the dishwasher?
While I agree that connecting a dishwasher to the Internet should not be necessary, it does open the door to an interesting scenario if what gets sent to the dishwasher is not a command to run a mode but an actual program to control the dishwasher. In theory that would mean that Bosch could alter the programs that get sent to improve the dishwasher over time.
On a dishwasher with no connectivity the modes simply are what they are from the factory. But on a connected dishwasher if the Bosch engineers figure out that when in ECO mode using every third sprayer saves water while not altering the cleaning performance expected of that mode, they can update the payload and make the dishwasher you already have even more efficient. They could also in theory create a whole library of modes for specific use cases or scenarios (All glass, hard water, etc.)
Of course, this has potential drawbacks as well. They could change a mode and alter behavior you expect, and it could potentially be a hacker's playground, but if done well it could be a net positive.
If they really want firmware updates for their dishwasher, they should give it Bluetooth or a USB port enabled by a special button combination and call it a day.
2012 I won’t connect my tv to your cloud
2015 I won’t connect my car to your cloud
(sighs, thinks back to simpler times, remembers all the other shit that's going on at the moment, and wonders 'just how big a tarriff PDT will slap on the Huns')
The smart stuff seems acceptably done: I can start cycles on my phone, it can be configured with the off-peak times for our power supply and automatically delay the overnight wash until then, I get a push notification on my Apple Watch to tell me to open the door to help drying, there are more program cycles you can download (which is the complaint here - should be more cycles on the machine).
And there is this useless feature where you can tell it you’ve bought, say, 90 dishwasher tablets and it will count down the tablets each wash and warn you when you need to buy more.
I say useless because you literally see how many tablets you have left when you fish them out of the box but still it felt like they tried to add some electronic smarts that made sense?
So yeah TL;DR works fine without wifi, with wifi you get some practical but otherwise ignorable functionality.
I also have no clue what all the physical buttons on the washing machine's control panel do, but it's easy to configure the wash program using the phone app whenever something special is needed. I wish I had the same kind of remote control for the dish washer, since its buttons are also pretty much undecipherable.
The actual Home Connect Android app is not great though. Could be simplified and cleaned up of unnecessary cruft.
This is beyond cynical.
If the rule is that everything from a 2nd SSID has the VLAN applied, that's pretty secure.
If the rule is that things with a particular MAC address have the VLAN applied, that depends on the device not spoofing another MAC address.
And if your rule is that already tagged traffic is left as-is, then a device can tag its own traffic with another VLAN.
Ok with some stats send in quality. But these days the more complex they get, they sound like printer Error blah blah. :)
I can imagine the same happening with connected appliances. You have to get a new phone to talk to your old dishwasher because the vendor updated the app to only work on the newest phones.
With wage deflation, free time erosion, and political uncertainty, nobody has the time, energy or money to fight this. It is no wonder that we take the easy option, and so the cycle continues.
I do my best to pushback (this month was deleting firefox, last year was deleting youtube), but disengagement is just a number that nobody sees. So another 1000 people wont buy this brand, or use that service, or will boycott such and such. No one notices.
But I found some small hope. I recently switched jobs, and I have been lucky enough to talk to many people that do care enough to try to make a difference. I know there are others here on HN as well, some of us clinging on to one of the last websites worth visiting.
So if you have ever taken the more difficult option, I just want to say thank-you for your sacrifice, because even if the corps dont notice, you are doing the right thing. Karma.
Time to give tech a 'soiled wash' and start reviewing tech with a 'Clean Tech' moniker for companies willing to sell repairable tech, without the enshitifcation of ads, cloud, subscriptions, drm, mandatory accounts etc etc
Today's challenge, find Jeff a 'Clean Tech' washer so that we can have some interesting followup articles where he battles with the returns department because the machine has been listening in to his grumbles, and the water detection sticker has turned blue.
Where is that bizarre conception that washing dishes by hands ends up wasting more water? If anything it's the other way around.
1.5 hours a day and a high water bill is a ridiculous exaggeration, though. Like with anything, the more you do it the better you get at it. I wash dishes currently because I don't have a dishwasher. It takes 10-20 minutes tops, and my water bill is lower than my internet bill (and much lower than internet + various media subscription services that I don't need).
that depends entirely how you hand-wash your dishes. There is not a single way to do it.
> A modern dishwasher uses 2-3 gallons per load
Maybe, but then you have to factor that the quality of the rinsing has nothing to do with hand-washing. I'd prefer my plates without traces of detergents.
But others like coffee machine, lights, solar, AC, ventilation, robot vacuum, car charger, hot water heater, speakers are so obviously better when connected.
The only device that I really want connected is my lawn sprinkler system so that it can check the weather before using a lot of potable water
Even worse if you literally can't use your coffee machine without connecting it to the cloud.
I feel similarly about the rest of the things you listed. But I don't mind having the option, as long as it's completely optional (because I don't want to use it). But because of how capitalism works, it is very hard for the MBAs in management to resist the urge to cloud-wall features.
"Smart" features are nice when done well. Like e.g. through Home Assistant. Companies could make them that good, even better, but they all universally see IoT as a trick for plausibly-deniable planned obsolescence and to get people used to subscription model for home appliances. As a result, the apps are usually pile of garbage, slapped together on the cheap by some random outsourcing company.
Parents used to have them for decades plus. The last dishwasher my landlord put in made it about 6 month. Build quality feels like soda can alu
Basically disposable now
It's kind of amazing that capitalism can go so far as to make customers want to opt out and build their fucking own...
I'm totally blind. Last year I bought an Instant Pot (multi-function pressure cooker) because it's well past time I start cooking for myself. There are numerous models available on Amazon, and I had no idea which ones would have tactile controls (I think this was before Amazon introduced their LLM thing, and I'm unsure if it would've helped in any case, or just hallucinated and caused me to buy something I couldn't use). Could've waited until I had a sighted person around or available online to look at pictures, but that's beside the point.
So I ended up spending an extra $50 for the "Pro Plus" model, which is WiFi-enabled. Apparently a previous model connected to phones directly via bluetooth (that model is no longer supported) and that's what I was hoping/expecting would be the case here as well. Unfortunately it only uses bluetooth for the initial setup. So, after creating yet another account with my real email address, registering the device, and waiting several minutes for who knows what (firmware download?) it's connected to the internet and seems to be controlled indirectly by the phone app through their API. So yeah, that company probably logs when, where, how, and maybe even what I cook, for how long, because why the hell not?
My point, though, is that for the moment, at least I can use this device. I'm well aware that this may not be the case long-term; the app has already had one update that made accessibility much worse, the company could stop supporting this model as well, or the internet could go down. The app and the device occasionally get out of sync, resulting in quite a bit of wasted time. But if I were using buttons on the device itself, the best I could hope for would be to memorize menus and the temperature dial and whatnot. In practice, that would probably be less tedious than having to pause while cooking, clean my hands and use my phone, but for now, at least theoretically, I can use all the features of the device via the app. Barring that, the logical solution would be to just connect directly via bluetooth, as was done previously, but then I wouldn't need to create an account, and we can't have that. Maybe there are/were better options on the market, but product listings seem to just say things like "WiFi-enabled", "App-Controled", or "IoT" without defining exactly what that means, and "customer support" will either be a chatbot that tells me what I want to hear and then claims to contact a human who will never get back to me, or a human following a script who doesn't understand my requirements even after I state them clearly, and probably doesn't even know what they're actually selling. Wonderful world we live in. Incidentally, I do actually need to get myself a dishwasher one of these days, and it's almost certainly going to be the same deal.
The dishwasher answers on SSH port 22. I suspect that the app's direct connection uses this and exchanges credentials via the initial cloud setup (so no cloud, no app connection either way).
I've found one useful feature not mentioned in the manual at all, that depend on the app: Popping the door open at the start of the drying cycle ("Efficient Dry" or something like that) vs. the end of it ("Auto Air"). Since changing this setting, plastic stuff is noticeably drier after letting it run into the night and then sitting open for the rest of the night. Stuff with higher thermal inertia (metal, porcelain, glass) is always dry except for the inevitable puddles at the top of upside-down mugs.
Actually I think you also need the app to run only the extra hot final rinse (for better drying) whereas "Sanitize" on the machine's UI runs the whole wash hotter.
The first thing it did after connecting it to the app/cloud was install a 70MB (!) software update. On a dishwasher.
Anyway I was not going to connect it to the cloud. But it flaked alarmingly. It would just sit there, blinking its red light, unresponsive to anything but power off, and there was no way to ask it what was wrong. Since the software update it has not done this, knock on wood.
The manual, btw, also doesn't mention this: If you do reset it via 4 second power button press, it does not go catatonic forever. It just sits there for 30+ seconds with all lights on and unresponsive. But then it does finish the reset. I'd previously run out of patience and unplugged it by then.
If you do RTFM you'll find that most of the features, e.g. how much rinse aid to dispense, are available through the machine's UI through deeply unintuitive keystroke sequences. But not all of them (like the mentioned delayed start).
I don't use the machine all that much, so a 20+ year lifetime is possible. Will the app and cloud still function then? I'd like to think yes - German companies are very customer service oriented. But we'll see. Whether the machine lasts that long and whether the app/cloud lasts that long. Keep in mind if you need the cloud to connect the app, you may have to do that every time you change phones.
One "feature" that this one has... with a 3:15h wash time (on the "auto" setting) it keeps things wet for so long that, say, rice starch comes off perfectly. On the previous, old, dishwasher it just got baked on really well by the hot dry cycle. Of course that dishwasher only took an hour, so you could run mutliple loads at the end of a big dinner evening. Win some, lose some.
I'm very happy with the app. If you didn't already fetch electricity prices, it can display them in the app and automatically delay washing until it's cheapest. The dishwasher can also be extended by downloading additional wash programs.
It seems to be well thought out. LGs app in comparison is absolute pants and has no option for local connectivity.
The enshittification continues...
You should research your appliances better before purchasing them.
Also I guess they should be less user-hostile, good luck with that.
The only thing is, you know you can, like, buy a dishwasher that doesn't connect to Wifi?
At this point some things are better with bluetooth/wifi. The laundry machine in my building connects via Bluetooth to an app and I can pay for my laundry using it. Do you realize how much better that is than having to go to the bank every few weeks (during work because of course the bank hours are 10-4 these days), get a bunch of quarters, and use them to wash my clothing?
I guess the point is there's more nuance to the HN kneejerk reaction to "Internet of things bad" - some things are easier, some things are dumb marketing gimmicks that quickly die off. Ultimately the market sorts itself out. If people don't want to use an app for their dishwasher, manufacturers will stop making them. Remember 3D TVs?
1. Buy dishwasher that requires wifi 2. Complain loudly that said dishwasher requires wifi 3. Post on HN
Excuse my ignorance but do you... pay to do laundry in your own home? I must be misunderstanding something because it sounds like some dystopian late stage capitalism thing. If I actually understood you correctly, can't you get a dishwasher that doesn't require paying?
I'll go even further:
STOP PUTTING FIRMWARE IN THINGS THAT DON'T NEED FIRMWARE.
AFAIK Android gives you some freedom wrt notifications, but Apple demands all notifications go through a service.
This is all before we talk about the support nightmare of average people not understanding why they can't connect to their dishwasher when away from home, or what the proper security model should be.
Since we are, ultimately, such a minority, I am sure that not even returning the product would make the manufacturer understand that this is — really — unacceptable. The only way we can get this "fixed" is by mandating open APIs for local use by regulators, when we'll see the proliferation of custom apps.
The worst washing machine I've ever had is my current one, and it isn't even a "smart" appliance. It has just enough software to be worse than my one with dials for everything.
At least we are seeing actual, tactile buttons start their return in cars!
It does NOT need cloud connectivity and all of these devices should be able to communicate locally to a matter or zigbee hub or over Wi-Fi without Internet directly to my server. That is the actual problem. We should not let corporate greed stifle innovation by saying new features are pointless because a company then can try to exploit it for further profit.
But on how we do that, my opinion seems to differ.
I postulate that it's hard (expensive) to do what you suggest: finding people to build that for every customer, while not increasing support costs is tricky today.
Just ensuring your personal computing device (a phone, laptop or server running home assistant) can see and talk to your device is a hard problem (which is why the go to solution is poke a hole in your router fw by pushing data to a server, and have mobile app only talk to the cloud).
Can we, as a software development community, come up with an approach that makes this easy to do for local first but remote enabled?
Some things that are already wildly out of control cannot be fixed from within. We can only hope that regulation and government influence could stop the waterfall. Or, a good old fashioned tea party (if that would even have the slightest effect nowadays).
So I think it's either increased government regulation, or IT crowd working to simplify development of local-first/mobile-supported applications for any type of a connected device and client. I don't really think this will come from a community, but a push to standardize on a couple of protocols, API formats, how apps can talk to the same API locally and over the internet and such — those are things that could really be done once (or at most a couple dozen times, for everyone's favourite framework and language :)), and then there won't be an "expensive" excuse for companies.
Or, rules can mandate that, when it will become cheaper because companies will join together to bring the price down (like they did with Matter).
It all probably starts benign: let's push some notifications to customer's phones (already requires a server — ahem, a cloud — and a mobile app).
Then smart product managers realize that the app is not used by anyone, and they start thinking about "value add" with the app, and quickly, you are looking at removing things from the physical unit and putting them only in software.
A PM next: look, this release has increased usage of the app 10x!
Instead of them just doing the right thing and nixing the app — but who'd advocate for cutting their own job?
How hard and how expensive is it? It used to just be called "software" for four decades and literally everything was made this way up until a few years ago so I think the evidence is against you on this one.
Nobody had a personal computing device in their pocket 90% of their awake time.
Now the goal for product department is to make their newly "smart" devices accessible to said computing devices.
The simplest solution that (almost) always works on home networks is to initiate an outgoing connection to an external server (the "cloud"), push notifications and poll for commands; after, have the mobile app only talk to the server.
If you do anything else, you are at the very least setting yourself up for support nightmare: "I am at home and I can't access my washer through the app" (are you on the same network? maybe your phone has wifi turned off?)
For usecases of the sort, this is one general solution that — from the perspective of a PM — always works.
By simply discounting reality that it's more expensive to implement both locally accessible smart devices, yet keep remote capability, and discounting that support costs are going to balloon too, we are not driving to a positive outcome for all of ourselves either.
I think we should focus on getting the cost down, by building better tooling and protocols and patterns that make it easy for a mobile app (or any client) to discover and talk to any smart device, making it simple for a customer to decide if they want remote capability or not.