Comment by ajays | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ajays | Hacker News Reader

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As I walked out of the Van Ness MUNI station in San Francisco last night, I walked by at least 20 homeless people, just lying on the street. A couple on wheelchairs, the rest just lounging around. A few of them reeked of urine and feces.

And this is in, arguably, one of the richest cities in America.

So while this situation (homelessness, mental patients going without care, hunger), how dare the USA spend so much money on a Mars mission? On the military? Heck, why does the City of SF spend so much money on America's Cup, Outsidelands, etc. when thousands of people are homeless and on the streets? Yes, you may say that the City spends money on them too; but then why are they still on the streets?

Do you see my point? If you were to apply the same logic (or lack thereof) that you're applying to India to any other country (even the US), you will get the same answer: don't spend money on anything.

BTW: India is not "taking handouts" from other nations[1]. India is actually _giving_ handouts to others; e.g., they've given billions in aid to Afghanistan to aid in its re-construction.

[1] http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm couple of 100M doesn't qualify as a "handout" for a country the size of India. That's like me donating $5 to Obama's campaign and then expecting him to have dinner with me. WikiPedia link of top 25 countries; India does not feature in them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid

> As I walked out of the Van Ness MUNI station in San Francisco last night, I walked by at least 20 homeless people, just lying on the street. A couple on wheelchairs, the rest just lounging around. A few of them reeked of urine and feces.

> And this is in, arguably, one of the richest cities in America.

You're conveniently ignoring several points. First of all, San Francisco draws homeless from all over the nation because it (a) has good weather year round and (b) is quite liberal and will tolerate and help the homeless. Unlike India, in much of the US, being homeless during the winter means that you will quite literally freeze to death. So the homeless tend to congregate in places where the weather is favorable for outdoor living year round. The fact that San Francisco is rich is a result of Silicon Valley, which developed where it has because of the proximity of the Stanford campus. So the two issues are not exactly connected.

More importantly, attempts to help the homeless on the streets of SF have been made over and over (and are ongoing). Many of these people refuse to leave the streets. Some of them even enjoy it. Many others suffer from mental disorders, but we can't force them to live in asylums (which was the case until the 1980s) - that would be inhumane, or so the argument goes.

As for India, its level of poverty is so staggering that any comparison to America or another first world nation is entirely pointless. Let's see what UNICEF has to say about child malnutrition, for example[0]:

> Malnutrition is more common in India than in Sub-Saharan Africa. One in every three malnourished children in the world lives in India.

So India has worse child malnutrition than even Africa. How you can even begin to compare this to some bums on the street in SF is entirely beyond me.

0: http://www.unicef.org/india/children_2356.htm

My point was: the OP took one negative fact ("young girls carry feces") and proceeded to paint the whole country of 1.2Billion with that. That game can be played by pointing out the homeless in SF too. See how silly it looks?

The OP was wrong in using manual scavenging as an example of a lack of economic progress, when it is actually an example of a lack of social progress, as I mentioned in a reply to him[0].

However, I don't believe that the homeless problem in SF can be compared to the manual scavenging problem either, because of the difference in terms of degree of severity. One is the result of millenia of systematic oppression, while the other is the result of people refusing to get help for themselves even when it is offered for free. Caste-based discrimination is a much bigger problem than homelessness is in India. If you don't believe me, you should watch the video linked in my other comment[0] - caste-based discrimination is much more widespread than most upper class Indians know or are willing to admit.

However, none of that changes the fact that economic progress is also sorely needed in India. The sort of progress that lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in China and educated them hasn't even begun to start in India.

The reason why it appears like India is doing so well is because if only 5% of the Indian population is well-educated and contributes significantly to the global economy, that's 60 million people - the size of a large European nation. So when (by my estimates) ~10% of the Indian population does so (as it has over the last 10-20 years), it creates huge ripple effects in the global economy. And Westerners especially notice when it occurs in service-based industries that they have direct contact with.

But that doesn't change the fact that hundreds of millions of Indians are impoverished and suffering from conditions worse than those in sub-Saharan Africa. When it comes to social development, the only parts of the world behind India are those that have been or continue to be torn apart by war. It's particularly damning when you consider that India's independence was achieved with relatively little bloodshed and that it hasn't had any military coups or dictatorships since independence. Compare this to the likes of countries like Germany, Japan, and South Korea, which rose from the ashes following WW2 and the Korean War to become first world nations. China suffered from enormous devastaion during the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward, and yet it has made huge strides over the last 20 years and continues to do so unabatedly with each passing year.

0: http://hackerne.ws/item?id=4386845

"One is the result of millenia of systematic oppression, while the other is the result of people refusing to get help for themselves even when it is offered for free. "

Have you wondered why so many of the homeless are people of color?

I used to live in upstate New York. By chance I happened to venture into a local reservation. I was shocked to see the conditions they were living in; especially given the fact that the area gets pretty darn cold in the winter.

Both of these groups (blacks, as well as native Americans) have been the victims of discrimination for centuries.

But people don't waive this fact all over HN any time the topic of NASA comes up.

I don't deny that blacks and Native Americans have been treated poorly, and that they still face discrimination. However, that doesn't change the fact that those people you see on the street are there because they refuse the help they are given.

San Francisco is one of the most liberal cities in the country. There are dozens of upper middle class yuppies pleading with the homeless to accept their help.

> By chance I happened to venture into a local reservation. I was shocked to see the conditions they were living in; especially given the fact that the area gets pretty darn cold in the winter.

Native American reservations are, by their own choice, given a high level of autonomy by the US government. Once again, these people have made a conscious decision to reject help given them. Every single one of these people has chosen to live on a reservation when they could benefit from everything that modern America has to offer. Now, I can see that on a macro level, what the immigrants did to the Native Americans must seem horribly unjust, and therefore their descendants don't exactly want to accept the US government's help. However, on an individual level, these are individuals who have a clear path to bettering their lives that they simply refuse.

This is incomparable to the systematic suppression of millions upon millions of people that occurs to this very day, both on a macro and micro level, in India.

You are really clueless, aren't you? The problems that you see on reservations are the direct result of centuries of oppression. It may look different to you than the situation in India, most likely because you're probably white and male, and hence belong to the side that's been oppressing; but the situation is the same. Systemic denial of equal rights, denial of services, forced segregation from the rest of the society .... fundamentally, it's the same.

You may disagree, and I don't blame you; but having lived in India and the US for equal parts of my life, I see the same patterns.

You're the one who seems to still be incapable of understanding what I'm saying. I don't deny that discrimination has occurred in US. I never have.

The difference is that significant steps have been taken to combat discrimination in America, whereas there is a general apathy towards that in India (and most of the developing world). Trying to equate the two is completely nonsensical, as is trying to equate the level of poverty in America, even on a reservation, with that in India.

> having lived in India and the US for equal parts of my life, I see the same patterns.

As an Indian who has managed to make it to America, I don't think you're in any place to comment on what life is like for poor Indians, particularly those facing endemic caste-based discrimination. Their experiences are completely foreign to you, just as I wouldn't claim that I understand what African Americans or Native Americans go through.

There is a very big difference between the homeless in San Francisco and a starving kid in India.

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