India announces plans for a Mars mission in 2013
hurriyetdailynews.com
hurriyetdailynews.com
As much as I like India and its space program, it is also true that these kind of grand pronouncements happen from time to time and are not taken very seriously here. And when the announced missions/projects do happen they are inevitably over budget and delayed.
E.g: cost of an unmanned lunar probe in 2008 - US $ 90 million (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1)
costs for a lunar lander/rover, proposed for 2016 (delayed from the original plan for 2014) - projected cost - US $ 80 million. Note this is the projected cost (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-2)
Thus, I'd be very very skeptical of a mars probe actually being launched in 2013 at the same amount of money as was spent on a lunar probe 4 years ago.
See how that $80 million keeps repeating? Must be the maximum budget you can sell to a technically illiterate politician. ;-)
That said, I am all for India trying to explore space, with whatever constraints. Eventually there will be a Mars probe and that is great.
If you have a problem with how your government's aid money is being spent in India, please go forward and lobby for the aid to get cut off. How we spend our tax money is a decision that we should be allowed to make.
Honestly, I am surprised that HackerNews has the sentiment of pointing out expenditures on science to be extravagant and unnecessary by using social conditions as excuse, while there is so much more we could save by changing our military, social or economic standpoints. US's military budget was $663.84B in 2010 [1] while United Nations budget was just around $5.2B during the same time [2] and it's not that United States is all free from hunger or food insecurities [3]. So please, whichever country that you belong to will have issues just like us. We probably have a lot more of those than you do, but we have the right to decide which of those do we want to tackle now at the expense of being behind in our long term goals. And I request you to keep your preferences to yourself and stop forcing your morality/ethics/logic onto us in such private matters.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States
[2] http://www.un.org/en/hq/dm/pdfs/oppba/Regular%20Budget.pdf
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger#In_the_United_StatesThe US does spend a lot on their military, and they may have some very deprived areas where people have less food than required (but I highly doubt anyone in the US starves to death).
Likewise, though, the US doesn't have young girls whose job it it to collect other peoples faeces with their bare hands [1]. I would say a country that has that doesn't need a Mars mission.
[1] http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o0vpXaPf_9AC&pg=PT62&...
I also think (and hope) that India becomes a greater power than China.
But having a Mars mission whilst taking state aid is like spending your unemployment benefit on an iPad whilst your children go hungry.
Perhaps this explains the recent nazi unrest in the East German state of Brandenburg.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/masked-neo-nazi-immort...
Different things - equally noxious, depending on who you ask - get swept under the rug in different countries.
A lynching offense in one is not so in another.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333420/Paedophile-r...
And this is in, arguably, one of the richest cities in America.
So while this situation (homelessness, mental patients going without care, hunger), how dare the USA spend so much money on a Mars mission? On the military? Heck, why does the City of SF spend so much money on America's Cup, Outsidelands, etc. when thousands of people are homeless and on the streets? Yes, you may say that the City spends money on them too; but then why are they still on the streets?
Do you see my point? If you were to apply the same logic (or lack thereof) that you're applying to India to any other country (even the US), you will get the same answer: don't spend money on anything.
BTW: India is not "taking handouts" from other nations[1]. India is actually _giving_ handouts to others; e.g., they've given billions in aid to Afghanistan to aid in its re-construction.
[1] http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm couple of 100M doesn't qualify as a "handout" for a country the size of India. That's like me donating $5 to Obama's campaign and then expecting him to have dinner with me. WikiPedia link of top 25 countries; India does not feature in them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid
> And this is in, arguably, one of the richest cities in America.
You're conveniently ignoring several points. First of all, San Francisco draws homeless from all over the nation because it (a) has good weather year round and (b) is quite liberal and will tolerate and help the homeless. Unlike India, in much of the US, being homeless during the winter means that you will quite literally freeze to death. So the homeless tend to congregate in places where the weather is favorable for outdoor living year round. The fact that San Francisco is rich is a result of Silicon Valley, which developed where it has because of the proximity of the Stanford campus. So the two issues are not exactly connected.
More importantly, attempts to help the homeless on the streets of SF have been made over and over (and are ongoing). Many of these people refuse to leave the streets. Some of them even enjoy it. Many others suffer from mental disorders, but we can't force them to live in asylums (which was the case until the 1980s) - that would be inhumane, or so the argument goes.
As for India, its level of poverty is so staggering that any comparison to America or another first world nation is entirely pointless. Let's see what UNICEF has to say about child malnutrition, for example[0]:
> Malnutrition is more common in India than in Sub-Saharan Africa. One in every three malnourished children in the world lives in India.
So India has worse child malnutrition than even Africa. How you can even begin to compare this to some bums on the street in SF is entirely beyond me.
However, I don't believe that the homeless problem in SF can be compared to the manual scavenging problem either, because of the difference in terms of degree of severity. One is the result of millenia of systematic oppression, while the other is the result of people refusing to get help for themselves even when it is offered for free. Caste-based discrimination is a much bigger problem than homelessness is in India. If you don't believe me, you should watch the video linked in my other comment[0] - caste-based discrimination is much more widespread than most upper class Indians know or are willing to admit.
However, none of that changes the fact that economic progress is also sorely needed in India. The sort of progress that lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in China and educated them hasn't even begun to start in India.
The reason why it appears like India is doing so well is because if only 5% of the Indian population is well-educated and contributes significantly to the global economy, that's 60 million people - the size of a large European nation. So when (by my estimates) ~10% of the Indian population does so (as it has over the last 10-20 years), it creates huge ripple effects in the global economy. And Westerners especially notice when it occurs in service-based industries that they have direct contact with.
But that doesn't change the fact that hundreds of millions of Indians are impoverished and suffering from conditions worse than those in sub-Saharan Africa. When it comes to social development, the only parts of the world behind India are those that have been or continue to be torn apart by war. It's particularly damning when you consider that India's independence was achieved with relatively little bloodshed and that it hasn't had any military coups or dictatorships since independence. Compare this to the likes of countries like Germany, Japan, and South Korea, which rose from the ashes following WW2 and the Korean War to become first world nations. China suffered from enormous devastaion during the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward, and yet it has made huge strides over the last 20 years and continues to do so unabatedly with each passing year.
Have you wondered why so many of the homeless are people of color?
I used to live in upstate New York. By chance I happened to venture into a local reservation. I was shocked to see the conditions they were living in; especially given the fact that the area gets pretty darn cold in the winter.
Both of these groups (blacks, as well as native Americans) have been the victims of discrimination for centuries.
But people don't waive this fact all over HN any time the topic of NASA comes up.
San Francisco is one of the most liberal cities in the country. There are dozens of upper middle class yuppies pleading with the homeless to accept their help.
> By chance I happened to venture into a local reservation. I was shocked to see the conditions they were living in; especially given the fact that the area gets pretty darn cold in the winter.
Native American reservations are, by their own choice, given a high level of autonomy by the US government. Once again, these people have made a conscious decision to reject help given them. Every single one of these people has chosen to live on a reservation when they could benefit from everything that modern America has to offer. Now, I can see that on a macro level, what the immigrants did to the Native Americans must seem horribly unjust, and therefore their descendants don't exactly want to accept the US government's help. However, on an individual level, these are individuals who have a clear path to bettering their lives that they simply refuse.
This is incomparable to the systematic suppression of millions upon millions of people that occurs to this very day, both on a macro and micro level, in India.
You may disagree, and I don't blame you; but having lived in India and the US for equal parts of my life, I see the same patterns.
The difference is that significant steps have been taken to combat discrimination in America, whereas there is a general apathy towards that in India (and most of the developing world). Trying to equate the two is completely nonsensical, as is trying to equate the level of poverty in America, even on a reservation, with that in India.
> having lived in India and the US for equal parts of my life, I see the same patterns.
As an Indian who has managed to make it to America, I don't think you're in any place to comment on what life is like for poor Indians, particularly those facing endemic caste-based discrimination. Their experiences are completely foreign to you, just as I wouldn't claim that I understand what African Americans or Native Americans go through.
This is primarily not an economic issue, it's a cultural one, a product of the millenia-old caste system. Watch this video[0] linked on GigaOM a few days ago[1], it explains the issue quite well (English hardsubs kick in at the 2 minute mark). Correcting it will take a lot more than money.
0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OUoXsryE3c
1: http://gigaom.com/cloud/how-indias-favorite-tv-show-uses-dat...
Someone is a natural theoretical physicist. Others are mathematicians, rocket scientists, or maybe just great electronics and computer engineers. Or great artists.
While it is criminal that many people are suffering like you describe, it is also a (smaller)crime that the talented folks above are denied an outlet. What should they do? Why should they suffer just because the country as a whole has failed to solve poverty and caste issues for centuries?
It is of no use to anyone that these people sit around twiddling their thumbs. Not all of them can leave the country.
The relatively minor amount allocated for Indias space program is well spent.
(This argument always always comes up and goes nowhere, and is a well known time sink. People who keep bringing it up in every other thread are trolls. Lots of people with nothing to do but hate and or give unasked-for advice jump on these known timesinks if you give them your attention. Not worth responding to them. Respond to people who have something useful to say.
Meanwhile India (like every nation on Earth)does what it does, depending on local perception of policy needs and all the blather on Teh Internetz by people who have ideas on what she "should" be doing is irrelevant. Don't lose your temper, because it just ends up making trolls happy and derailing useful discussion)
I'd love to see more of our budget employ people doing useful things (directly employ I mean) ... and space science seems like a good long-term investment. So I'll cheer for India's success and lament its problems along with you, but I haven't a right to dictate its policy.
Add to that the fuel for the launch vehicle; and fuel for the the cruise stage.
I can't trust this article.
The price per kg of LOX, LH2 etc. all seem fairly low to me, a quick search gives:
If you take into account cheaper labor, I could imagine India coming in considerably lower than that, though I'm not sure how much lower. They could probably also save some money by using existing, already-proven technology, e.g. by purchasing some ex-Soviet designs and equipment rather than developing all custom hardware+software. That said, I would be very surprised if this launches on-budget and on-schedule.
If ISRO can pull it off for under $100 million, that would be quite an achievement. Given the recent commercial interests in space, there might even be an opportunity to become financially independent by offering services for others.
http://www.lr.tudelft.nl/index.php?id=29335&L=1
It's also much smaller -- this article puts the weight of the Mars orbiter at 500 kg total, vs. 1,380 for Chandrayaan-1.
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/aug/09/india-s...
For example, check the projections on the James Webb space telescope and see for yourself how the costs doubled and tripled. IMO we shouldn't look at it in terms of those costs; even if double and tripled they are not that high. Look at their effect on the larger picture.
"The project was scheduled to be completed in 1998 at an estimated cost of $2.8 billion (in 1982 dollars, US$6.0 billion adjusted for inflation as of 2006).The project was not completed, however, until December 2007, at a cost of over $14.6 billion ($8.08 billion in 1982 dollars) as of 2006. The Boston Globe estimated that the project will ultimately cost $22 billion, including interest, and that it will not be paid off until 2038."
What you've just said is the equivalent of someone witnessing a Ferrari crash into a tree and destroy itself, and saying 'Ouch, that's an expensive tank of fuel he's just wasted'.
In fact the costs of fuel for these things are trivially small, basically inconsequential, compared to the cost of the things that are using the fuel - the rocket and the cruise stage. You don't get them back, they're single use, expended as part of the mission, and they're expensive.
Putting a satellite in orbit around another planet is still a non-trivial exercise, but while $90 million is probably a low-ball figure it's not a totally unreasonable one.
And for an orbiter around Mars (like the article said), solar is probably the better choice anyway. I love nuclear power and nuclear propulsion, but it's often overkill. If we knew as much as we did now about Spirit and Opportunity we might have used solar for the MSL mission.
Done, good. Now you've given your opinion. Please sit down and shut the F up.
Whatever I write would pail in comparison to a thread posted a few days earlier:
Link: http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-space-a...
HN discussion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4372563
Some awesome stuff has come from reaching for big goals with a constrained set of resources in the past. I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of jugaad innovations the Indians can bring to the table in the aerospace sector.
When India was on its way to launch its first rocket [way back when], some parts of the rocket were carried by the ISRO scientists pillion riding on a bicycle. Time magazine, in true western style, ridiculed that inicident. (Unfortunately I am not able to find references for this. So recounting from memory here.) Now after the moon shot with Chandrayaan-1, we know who had the last laugh.
However, on this particular occasion, I think this announcement is a populist one. The Central Government has nothing to show in terms of achievement. The government's image is severely tattered, what with all the corruption charges, policy paralysis, lack of any real economic progress, etc. Nothing like whipping up some nationalism to distract the people from noticing the lack of government performance.
Without the political context, I am guessing this Mars mission might provide scientists with 1) Insights on developing long range space travel 2) Insights into instrumentation technology 3) Robotics related tech
And India has had collaborative associations with several space agencies from different countries. It is only adding to the already existing space related body of knowledge.
All the disillusioned folks who think they are entitled to dictate policy decisions on account of their country giving "handouts" to India, feel free to take a hike.
India is struggling with implementing solutions to issues that appear to be more-or-less solved for other countries; such as a working road network, public transport in most cities, picking up and distributing food harvests and a 24-hour supply of electricity. If a mission to Mars might provide fundamental insights into solving such issues, other countries seem not to have needed them.
Added later: I don't believe this mission to Mars has nothing to do with good old South Asian jingoism, and outdoing the geographical neighbour I shall not name.
There's also the cultural difference. India is steeped in culture and religion that dates back farther than pretty much any other developed (or even developing) country.
I'm not giving an opinion on whether this is good or bad, just pointing out that straightforward solutions in other countries may not necessarily apply here.
We are also struggling with a massive brain drain. Such missions are going to inspire an entire generation and maybe create a sense of satisfaction and achievement. I, for one, do not doubt the importance of those in nation building.
Extrapolating from the words of Dr N D Tyson, the total spending on such space missions is not as high as we may think it is. India's GDP is good enough to not look at a space mission with a jaundiced eye.
Strawman. I'm not suggesting dropping everything. I'm only opining that a mission to Mars should be of lower priority than fulfilling basic infrastructure needs, which may be a source of satisfaction to a larger chunk of the population than the much smaller elite that can actually understand what a mission to Mars is all about.
Do consider then, that the projected cost of this space mission IS far lesser than what India spends on lot of the basic infrastructural needs that you point out are missing. They are missing, yes, but if you only look at present day snapshot it won't give you the entire story. However marginal it might seem, especially to a first-world citizen (I mean no sarcasm when I say this) education is getting better every year, employment is on an average getting better. Agricultural outputs are worrying but we have had massive monsoon shortages of late.
Almost everywhere the situation is made worse by corruption at every level. But we can't stop trying to fix things. As someone else points out on this thread, in the grand scheme of things this is an insignificant cost. FWIW some really intelligent high-school students might just decide their future based on news of such missions.
And this money does not magically dissipate - a lot of it effectively functions as subsidies to create high-tech jobs in the country, and a decent chunk of it will find its way back into government coffers as tax.
Demonstrating the ability to send probes to Mars could also do wonders for Indian companies that wants to compete for international satellite launch business, for example.
It could be a waste, but it could also very well turn out to have a good enough ROI to increase the amount of cash available for basic infrastructure needs.
And finally, snarky for sure (assuming you're american), but people in glass houses etc. America has a large population of poor yet still finds room to spend 500bn a year on defense (whilst only a paulty few cents for NASA)
Right, because the other nations sending probes into space solved all of their other problems first...
I could come up with a million reasons why government money spent on space research is a bad idea, but the reasons you gave aren't on the list.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844...
But why should the ones who want to make a difference be subject to criticism that they don't deserve?
A Government with these problems should be considered criminal when they cant actually provide their population with the basics.
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/business/global/a-failed-...
The sad fact is that even though India spends large sums to address the social problems, due to endemic corruption the results are far less spectacular. Spending money on ventures like space exploration doesn't really come in the way of addressing the social problems we have.
> For example the budgetary allocation in current year for Rural Infrastructure is ~ 13 billion USD, Education is ~ 6 billion USD [1].
That's really not a lot! The UK spends about 150 billion USD on education each year, which is about 2300USD per capita. Dividing 6bn by the population of india at 1.2bn, that's 5USD per capita.
That is to say, the UK spends 460x as much per person on education as India. And people would say the UK can't afford a Mars mission at the moment!
Returning to my earlier argument, this isn't about any sacrificial costs. There is enough budget for everything including infrastructure development and a space mission as far as the Indian budget is concerned. The problems at the grassroot are not due to lack of spending power but corruption and broken implementation practices.
Again, these are parallel lines of progress. Spending on a space mission does NOT affect other public expenditures in this country. Neither does resolving ALL public problems make us more or less morally qualified (I still don't understand the objection) to launch a rover to Mars.
The UK has showered herself with a surfeit of entitlements, post-war, that she no longer can pay for. Time to perhaps start making things that the world wants to pay for, besides bespoke umbrellas.
And the umbrellas I buy are probably Chinese.
I'm not saying that's they wont EVER, but they have to join us on planet earth before they start dreaming of other planets.
FWIW, I'm from India.. sort of.