And for the thin-provisioned snapshotted subvolume usecase, btrfs is currently eating ZFS's lunch due to far better Linux integration. Think snapshots at every update, and having a/b boot to get back to a known-working config after an update. So widespread adoption through the distro route is out of the question.
Is this a technical argument? Or is this just more licensing nonsense?
> Think snapshots at every update, and having a/b boot to get back to a known-working config after an update.
I use ZFS and I have snapshots on every update? I have snapshots hourly, daily, weekly and monthly. I have triggered snapshots too, and ad hoc dynamic snapshots too. I wrote about it here: https://kimono-koans.github.io/opinionated-guide/
Solaris had this about a decade ago with beadm:
* https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E53394_01/html/E54749/gpxnl.html
FreeBSD has had it for several years as well. If Linux lacks it that is a failure of Linux (distros) not ZFS.
Also, ZFS has a bad name within the Linux community due to some licensing stuff. I find that most BSD users don't really care about such legalese and most people I know that run FreeBSD are running ZFS on root. Which works amazingly well I might add.
Especially with something like sanoid added to it, it basically does the same as timemachine on mac, a feature that users love. Albeit stored on the same drive (but with syncoid or just manually rolled zfs send/recv scripts you can do that on another location too).
I don't think it's that they don't care, it's that the CDDL and BSD-ish licenses are generally believed to just not have the conflict that CDDL and GPL might. (IANAL, make your own conclusions about whether either of those are true)
I do have a feeling that Linux users in general care more about the GPL which is quite specific of course. Though I wonder if anyone chooses Linux for that reason.
But really personally I don't care whether companies give anything back, if anything I would love less corporate involvement in the OS I use. It was one of my main reasons for picking BSD. The others were a less fragmented ecosystem and less push to change things constantly.
This is out of an abundance of caution. Canonical bundle ZFS in the Ubuntu kernel and no one sued them (yet).
But really, this is a concern for distros. Not for end users. Yet many of the Linux users I speak to are somehow worried about this. Most can't even describe the provisions of the GPL so I don't really know what that's about. Just something they picked up, I guess.
None of this is a worry about being sued as an end user. But all of those are worries that you life will be harder with ZFS, and a lot harder as soon as the first lawsuits hit anyone, because all the current (small) efforts to keep it working will cease immediately.
But these days they want you to subscribe to their cloud storage so the versioning is done there, which makes sense in their commercial point of view.
I think snapshots on ZFS are better than time machine though. Time machine is a bit of a clunky mess of soft links that can really go to shit on a minor corruption. Leaving you with an unrestorable backup and just some vague error messages.
I worked a lot with macs and I've had my share of bad backups when trying to fix people's problems. I've not seen ZFS fail like that. It's really solid and tends to indicate issues before they lead to bigger problems.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Machine_(macOS)#Operation
I can't readily tell how much of the dumbness is from the filesystem and how much from the kernel but the end result is that until it gets away from 1980s version of file locking there's no prayer. Imagine having to explain to your boss that your .docx wasn't backed up because you left Word open over the weekend. A just catastrophically idiotic design
I have many criticisms of NTFS like it being really bad at handling large volumes of small files. But this is something it can do well.
The lock prevents other people from copying the file or opening it even in read only, yes. But backup software can back it up just fine.
What a weird take. BSD's license is compatible with ZFS, that's why. "Don't really care?" Really? Come on.
Are you saying you didnt edit the post ?
Personally I don't care about or obey any software licenses, as a user.
But this is kinda the vibe I get from other BSD users if a license discussion comes up. Maybe it's my bubble, that's possible.
Under other licensing, developers wield an extraordinary amount of power over the users. Yes, The user could opt not to run that code, but realistically that isn't an option in the modern day. Developers can and will abuse their access to your machine to serve their ends regardless of whether it adds value to you or not. For example, how much data collection is in nearly all modern software?
Perhaps you would argue that what I've said above only applies to a very tiny minority of users who have the technical skills to actually utilize the code, and everyone else It's just a religious argument. I don't fully disagree with that. There is another clear benefit That even those untechnical users received from the GPL, and that is the essentially forced contribution back from companies who want to build on top of it. I don't think there's any better example than the Linux kernel, which has gotten lots of contributions from companies that are otherwise very proprietary in nature and would never have open sourced things. This has benefited everyone and has acted as a rising tide lifting All boats. Without the requirements in the GPL, this most certainly would not happen.
My response to it however, is that those users still get a good amount of protection because The code is out there
Simply - the GPL has some clauses enforcing some obligations (to prevent some rights from being taken away from you, the end user - according to their wording, and I agree), these and other clauses make it legally incompatible with the inclusion of ZFS (CDDL license) in the Linux kernel (GPL). You can build it yourself (so indeed as a user you get to not care or obey) but not distribute it (this is the problem of your distribution's maintainer).
Canonical's lawyers think this is not a problem if the ZFS code is distributed as a module, instead of compiled into the kernel itself, and since 2016 Ubuntu shipped with ZFS support.
The BSD license is considered perfectly compatible with the inclusion of CDDL licensed code and therefore many BSD distros ship with ZFS (and Dtrace) out of the box without legal worries. Indeed Oracle hasn't come knocking.
TL;DR: it's not a vibe. Some licenses are compatible with each other, some aren't. It also depends on how different licenses come into play into a "finished product" (e.g. kernel module vs monolithic build)
Afaik, the FreeBSD position is both ZFS and UFS are fully supported and neither is secondary to the other; the installer asks what you want from ZFS, UFS, Manual (with a menu based tool), or Shell and you do whatever; in that order, so maybe a slight preferance towards ZFS.
The problem is that it is still owned by Oracle. And Solaris ZFS is incompatible with OpenZFS. Not that people really use Solaris anymore.
It is really unfortunate. Linux has adopted file systems from other operating systems before. It is just nobody trust Oracle.